1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Tom Brady - Greatest QB in NFL History?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Bumrush, Dec 28, 2010.

  1. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,624
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    I've always said that a QBR of 80 in the 1980's is better than a QBR of 80 in 2009. You must have missed those posts of mine. I haven't changed anything in the way that I determine greatness.

    I don't use myths, fairytales, and feel good stories to determine the better player. I use cold, hard, facts, measurable stats, and common sense. I don't believe in the Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, the "it" factor, or "clutch".
     
  2. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,624
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    Perfectly written! There are too many people that depend on others to tell them who is "great".

    The proof is all around this forum. Instead of just doing a little research, people will instead parrot what they heard on the radio or watched on ESPN. Do you know how many times a day I watch a sports show or listen to a sports radio program and I catch them using false stats or completely giving a story or play wrong? Every single day this happens! Hell, this morning I was listening to the Dan LeBatard podcast and Dan kept saying that Marshall has only 1 TD catch. So now I'm sure there are 100's of Dolphins fans, some no doubt on this board, think Marshall has 1 TD catch for the season.


    Here's a little tid bit that a lot of people don't know about the "Great" Tom Brady...Never, not once, in his entire career, has he conducted a late 4th quarter, TD drive to win a playoff game. Never. It's been 40+ yard FG's that's given Brady his "clutch" moniker.
     
  3. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

    1,052
    243
    0
    Nov 26, 2007
    I'd take MAnning over Brady. I think there's more raw talent there, but, I'd be just
    fine with Brady. You can say anything you want to, and, I just sort of snort in
    laughter about most arguments against Brady.

    Yes, he stinks....lol. Right. He's one of the GOATs, and that's really all there is to it.
     
  4. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

    20,403
    39,953
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Newburgh, NY
    In regards to the whole "Manning vs. Brady" discussion....

    Brady loses Moss and has a pedestrian receiving corps, a suspect defense and no running game. He throws 34 TDs, 4 INTs, has a 109 PR and leads the team to a 13-2 record against teams with a combined record of 100-95.

    Manning loses Collie and has a pedestrian receiving corps, a suspect defense and no running game. He throws 31 TDs, 17 INTs, has a 91 PR, and leads the team to a 9-6 record against teams with a combined record of 95-100.

    Take away the game against each other - which the patriots won - and the Pats opponent's record becomes 91-89 while the Colt's opponent's record becomes 82-98.

    'Nuff said.
     
    pumpdogs likes this.
  5. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

    6,363
    3,740
    0
    Dec 14, 2007
    Bellevue, WA
    Manning has played most of his career indoors while Brady has been outside fighting the elements. That doesn't dictate that one is better than the other, but you definitely have to consider it. The Colt's division rivals are all in the warm south, too. Brady plays 7 out of 8 division games outside in the cold weather every year. Brady also just put up 4 TDs and 300+ yards in a blizzard - and he does it with a rotating group of receivers just like Peyton :lol:

    I can't say one is better than the other though. I think this debate will continue until the end of the world, honestly. Peyton might be a more gifted QB, but I think Brady is a better leader & winner. Can't fault either of them for those things though. They're both amazing QB's, we're just lucky we get to watch them play every week. My little siblings never got to watch Marino, to put it in perspective. :up:
     
    pumpdogs likes this.
  6. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,624
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    I don't think I've ever heard someone say that Brady "stinks". I'd laugh at them too. He's very intelligent, works hard, and wants to win as much as any great.

    However, it takes more than just those things to create greatness. Brady is a first ballot HoF QB. More so because he was lucky to play for the Patriots of the 2000's than his talent, but he'll be there. He is just not a top 10 all time great QB.
     
  7. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

    1,052
    243
    0
    Nov 26, 2007
    He hasn't needed to, really. He's won, and, won and won without doing that. What does that tell you? He hasn't needed to really. Every QB is going to have moments where they are less than stellar....If they hold a lead going into the 4th, they don't have to come back. I think people really underestimate the first three and a 3/4 of a game sometimes.
     
  8. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,624
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    You can use ONE season to determine greatness if you want. I, however, will look at entire careers. ;)
     
  9. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

    20,403
    39,953
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Newburgh, NY
    Brady = 11 YP, 4,694 ATT, 259 TDs, 5.5 TD PCT, 103 INTs, 2.2 INT PCT, 63.6 CP, 95 PR
    Manning = 13 YP, 7,169 ATT, 397 TDs, 5.5 TD PCT, 198 INTs, 2.8 INT PCT, 64.9 CP, 94.9 PR

    Seems like a dead heat to me except for one thing.

    Brady = 3 rings.
    Manning = 1 ring.

    :wink2:
     
  10. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

    1,516
    790
    113
    Jun 26, 2008
    Oh really?

    Well, what exactly were you trying to insinuate with this gem?
     
    RGF likes this.
  11. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

    6,363
    3,740
    0
    Dec 14, 2007
    Bellevue, WA
    Tom Brady is only a HOF because he was lucky to play on the Patriots? Not because of his talent?


    I love this place. That's gold :lol:
     
  12. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

    1,052
    243
    0
    Nov 26, 2007
    Well, most fans are pretty myopic where division rivals are concerned. I've heard LOTS of Dolphin fans talk
    just complete trash about Brady to a ridiculous extent, and, if you disagree you're less of a Dolphins fan.
    As I said; I'd prefer Manning, simply because I've admired him from the first game I saw him play
    in the pros, but you can't take away from Brady. I think he's a top 10 QB though. I don't know you could
    list me 10 QBs I'd take before Brady.
     
  13. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,624
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010

    I think after some time, like what happened to Bradsahw and Aikmen for example, Brady will end up being known as a QB who played on some great teams.
     
  14. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

    21,763
    3,477
    113
    Jan 5, 2008
    Oviedo FL
    I agree with the QB rating stuff. This NFL game is completely different now-a-days. The rules have changed to fit the passing game.

    You don't seem to use cold, hard, facts when discussing your boy henne.
     
  15. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

    6,363
    3,740
    0
    Dec 14, 2007
    Bellevue, WA
    If you use entire careers (using averages since Manning has 4 more years than Brady), Brady still has been more impressive. He has more rings, the highest single-season TD record, the best passing yardage year between the two, the best single-season record, a lower interception ratio - all while pacing Peyton in passing completion percentage and average YPC. Oh, Brady has done this while having played only 9 full seasons to Peyton's 13. At his rate of play, the only statistic Brady won't pass Peyton in is total yards, and that isn't helped by the fact that Brady lost two years of his playing career while Peyton played every season.


    It's the raw talent that gives Peyton more of a chance in this fight, but you can't measure that from stat sheets. :up:
     
  16. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

    6,363
    3,740
    0
    Dec 14, 2007
    Bellevue, WA
    Ok I've tried to be polite about it, but you're so far off base it's ridiculous dude. If you truly believe this, you have a very poor eye for NFL talent.
     
    gunn34 likes this.
  17. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

    20,403
    39,953
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Newburgh, NY
    Yea cause Montana, Tarkenton, Fouts, Favre, Staubach, Elway and Unitas all played for crappy teams. :rolleyes:

    With that comment, I'm bowing out of this discussion...that old "never try to teach a pig to sing" lesson.
     
  18. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,624
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010

    A lot of the younger people around here forget that the Colts and Dolphins had a long time revival before they changed divisions. I hated Manning. I still think he's a little happy-footed dork. However, I put all my "emotions" and bias aside when I determine things of this nature. And Manning is so much better than Brady.

    Tom Brady
    Johnny U
    Joe Montana
    John Elway
    Dan Marino
    Bart Starr
    Roger Staubach
    P. Manning (will on day be here)
    Otto Graham
    Steve Young
    Dan Fouts
    Ken Anderson (most people don't realize just how great he was)
    Jim Kelly (most people forget how great he was)
    Sonny Jurgensen
    Sammy Baugh
    YA Tittle
    Fran Tarkenton
    Norm van Brocklin



    Pick your top ten...

     
  19. TheMageGandalf

    TheMageGandalf Senior Member

    2,409
    688
    0
    Nov 25, 2007
    FLORIDA
    1. Brady won his SBs in the middle of SpyGate. Say what you will but cheating is cheating and it helps when you know things about the other team that you wouldnt know otherwise without breaking the rules.

    2. Brady I truely believe is a product of the system. Marino 'trailed off' as he got older because the system changed up but if you look at the body of work, the dude STILL passed for awesome yardage and stats proving that he wasnt the product of just one system he WAS the system. The 'Candy store' as JJ called it. Just like Matt Cassel going to KC and being average and not all-world since he is no longer playing in the system. Take Brady out of that system and then talk to me about greatness.

    3. We live during an era that the NFL is simply a passing league. The rules are so relaxed and set up to help the passing game it is unreal.

    I am not saying Brady is not one of the best right now. But all things being considered, if you take Brady and put him in a new system and put back the rules in which most of the 'greats' played with you'd end up with a QB AT BEST around the level of Dan Fouts or maybe Roger Staubach...maybe Terry Bradshaw. Thats it. Best ever? NO.
     
  20. FaninPatsyLand

    FaninPatsyLand The Truth

    1,516
    790
    113
    Jun 26, 2008
    Cassel's 2010:

    3001 yards, 60.2% completion percentage, 7.2 YPA, 27 TDs, 5 INTs and a 98.8 QBR.

    Average?

    Maybe Cassel wasn't a product of the system in 2008. Maybe he was just good.
     
    texasPHINSfan likes this.
  21. Garryowen

    Garryowen New Member

    1,052
    243
    0
    Nov 26, 2007
    I'm 43 years old dude.
    I was never that impressed with Fran Tarkington or Staubach
    (Though as a man, I respect the **** out of Staubach)
    On that list? I'd take Elway and Marino before Brady.
    Montana would be a toss up.
    I watched Ken Anderson play, and, I was, again, not THAT impressed.
    Most of the older school guys it's harder to compare because the game
    was so hugely different than it is today, so I tend to exclude them.
    I've always thought Fouts was a system product.
     
    RGF and the 23rd like this.
  22. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,624
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    How do you figure he's more impressive?

    Oh, I see, you're cherry picking. Why not use entire career stats? You say Manning has 4 more years than Brady. B.S. He has been in the league 2 more years. Staying healthy and starting as a rookie has to count as something for Manning. ;)

    Manning has 11 4000+ yard season. Brady has 3.
    Brady has a 50 TD season in 16 games. Manning has a 49 TD season in 14 games. (He was pulled when the Colts where ahead by a lot)

    Manning has a 9.9 TD% season. Brady's best was 8.7.

    Manning's career INT% is 2.8. Brady's in 2.2. In other words, pretty much even.

    They each have a 5.5 TD%

    Manning has 10 90+ QBR seasons
    Brady has 5

    Manning has 5 99+ QBR seasons
    Brady has 2

    The rest of your stats, Super Bowls, single season wins....they are all TEAM stats and don't really matter that much when discussing INDIVIDUAL players.
     
  23. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

    5,311
    2,373
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    NY




    Who drove the offense into field goal range time after time? And,why should they try and produce an all out TD drive when only a field goal will win it.? Your reasoning is getting absurd. Read whats around you, you`ll realize you`re not always right. I HATE Brady, but I watched enough football in my life to realize a clutch QB when I see it. Defending Henne and knocking Brady,yeah, that will add to your credibility. :pity:
     
    texasPHINSfan and the 23rd like this.
  24. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

    9,175
    2,399
    113
    Apr 20, 2009
    Tampa Area
    it is what it is
    Brady is on top of his game
    our henne is on the bottom
    no more excuses
    may we be the next team
    to dominate the NFL for a decade
     
    RGF likes this.
  25. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

    5,311
    2,373
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    NY
    Not under those circumstances. :lol: :hi5:
     
  26. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

    9,175
    2,399
    113
    Apr 20, 2009
    Tampa Area
    Friend RGF:
    we're basically a QB & a Pulling-Guard (if Incognito comes through @ center) from beginning a decade of dominance
     
  27. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

    5,311
    2,373
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    NY


    A:Neither was I

    B:He was good, but not one I`d label "great".

    C: You`re probably right ,but the Air Coryell show was awesome to watch. :yes: :knucks:
     
  28. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

    5,311
    2,373
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    NY
    I agree. I was stating the obvious about our present QB........ ( I`m not allowed to mention his name). :wink2:
     
  29. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,624
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    Yes, I'm absurd because I disagree with you while you call me absurd for not agreeing with other people.

    I don't "hate" Brady. I've already said that he's a great, HoF QB. I just can't see putting him on a top 10 or maybe even a top 20 ALL TIME great list.

    Once more, "clutch" is a myth. It's a feel good story created by writers and fans who want to believe that there are certain players that can produce "magic". Well, magic is also a myth. It's been proven time and time again that there is no such thing as "clutch".

    Also, I've never "defended" Henne.

    If you call being rational and having common sense about a 2 year QB in this system, on this team "defending" then yeah, I guess I am.
     
  30. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

    9,175
    2,399
    113
    Apr 20, 2009
    Tampa Area
    Those criticisms (about Tom Brady) are probably coming from people who don’t watch the game.
     
    RGF likes this.
  31. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,624
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    Never impressed with Fran or Staubach!!??? So, you're 43. Born in 1967? You were 10 when he RETIRED. You were 11 when Roger retired. lol...Most people who were 10 in 1999 think Brady is better than Marino. lol
     
  32. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,624
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    My quote is from an actual Pro Player. Your quote is from...well, you. HAHAHAHAHAH!
     
  33. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,624
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    Earlier this season you said Thiggy was our "future"... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!
     
  34. RGF

    RGF THE FINSTER Club Member

    5,311
    2,373
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    NY

    Just out of curiosity,if theres no such thing as "clutch" in pro sports then what would you call it? Also,if thats the case then millions of people mis-labled Michael Jordan


    Never defended Henne ?????????? Now you`re starting to scare me. Are you ok? seriously.... Wait a minute, unless you really dont mean what you say and you`re doing it for the goof to entertain us and get us riled up. Thats it,aint it.? :up: good one.
     
  35. Tepop84

    Tepop84 Banned

    109
    33
    28
    Sep 13, 2010
    His ANY/A this year is only 8.0. Good enough to lead the league, but not even top 10 season ever.
     
  36. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

    9,175
    2,399
    113
    Apr 20, 2009
    Tampa Area
    once again, you maliciously misquote, twisting things in an attempt to discredit my posts

    I suggest you go back & sift through my earlier posts,
    if you can show where I actually said that Thigpen was the future of the Miami Franchise:
    1) I will quit this board & post another forum
    2) if you can't, than stop making a fool & aggravation out of yourself, man-up & apologize


    simple enough proposition? :butthead:
     
  37. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,624
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    Here's the deal with "clutch".

    There are guys who play in the NFL. They are the best in the world at what they do. Out of the 10's of 1000's of football players in this sport, they made it to the upper echelon. There is nothing higher to a football player than the NFL.

    Now, each and every player who has made it this far, have "clutch". Clutch is nothing more than the ability to stay calm, stay focused, and stay alert in all situations of play. 100% of these NFL starters have proven that they are "clutch".

    Now, if you were to actually do a study on players "clutch" ability, you'd find, as people before you have found, that players play to their ability ALL OF THE TIME. Nothing more than that at any other period of time. Now, no person is perfect. So some drop passes, some miss throws or tackles, some strike out, some throw 4 balls in a row, some miss free throws and some fall down. However, if you were to take their entire career and look over that, you would see that there is no discernible difference between a players ability in the 4th quarter or the 1st quarter. Nothing different over the regular season or the post season.

    Mr. October was just a good baseball player. He played the same in the regualr season as he did in the post season. Tom Brady is a good football player. He plays the same in the regular season as he does the post season.

    And again, if by me being rational about Henne and his future is "defending", then yes, I'm guilty. However, and unlike some here, I have never ONCE come to any conclussions about the guy other than I'd like to see him play in a better system with more experience.
     
  38. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

    7,624
    1,578
    0
    Oct 11, 2010
    I'm not going to sift through your old posts. I barely read the recent ones. You said Thiggy would come out and shine. He would make sure we all forgot about Henne....These are not meant to be verbatim quotes from you, but rather just the meaning behind your posts.
     
  39. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

    9,175
    2,399
    113
    Apr 20, 2009
    Tampa Area
    Friend MarinePhinFan:
    these were not my words nor were they what I intended to say

    2) if you can't, than stop making a fool & aggravation out of yourself, man-up & apologize
     
  40. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

    9,175
    2,399
    113
    Apr 20, 2009
    Tampa Area

    forget about it, we're friends no apologies necessary. its been a long season
    lets be nice, we're both fellow veterans & dolfans posting the same board
    :up:
     

Share This Page