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Tom Brady - Greatest QB in NFL History?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Bumrush, Dec 28, 2010.

  1. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    Wow MarinePhinFan,

    Someone goes and takes the ONLY stats that can be FAIRLY measured from decade to decade and you whine.. "well he cherry picked stats" He even CHALLENGED you to prove him wrong.. But alas you couldn't.

    FYI I dont think Brady is the GOAT I like Montana but IMO Rice is GOAT..
     
  2. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    When you take into consideration ALL of his stats he doesn't make top 10.

    If I used your method (this "angry guy" from the other board is you, right? ;) ) I could say that Pennington is the best, or one of the best, QB of all time by bringing up his "efficiency bulk stats".
     
  3. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    You're right. My bad. I was looking at old data.
     
  4. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    What are you talking about? First, I wasn't challenged. At least not a meaningful challenge. EVERYTHING ecko wants I have already written in this post. If you want ALL of the stats all you have to do is either read my posts or follow the links I posted.
     
  5. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    Amazing how you are the ONLY person who thinks Brady is not top 10 all time... Even the EXPERTS disagree with you. But I know they don't understand the game like YOU.

    I will just state this to you... BEFORE Brady came in:

    5-11 the year before and 0-2 to start the next year. (The Pats put it bluntly SUCKED!) Brady came in and amazingly enough the WINNING Began, but winning is just a TEAM stat...
     
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  6. Joe Daniels

    Joe Daniels Banned

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    Why can't you name any of these stats? At least try to form an argument.

    Go ahead and attempt to make Chad great by using this method. As if he ranks anywhere near these all time greats in those categories.
     
  7. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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  8. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    I'm not a stats guy. Tony Romo I think has the highest QB Rating in NFL history. The whole story is the whole story. Stats, video evidence, anecdotal evidence, player evaluation (like Rod Woodson and Deion Sanders). I just trust the full story including the testimony of guys who played against dudes like Marino, Brady, and Manning. It's just not as simple as QB Rating and TD/INT ratio, the "eye" test, or yards etc.,. This would last all day. But hey, I'll trust Woodson more than even myself. If he said Brady was better than Marino etc., I'd have to put a lot of sway into his words. This is a frivolous thread in the wrong part of the forum no less.

    EDIT: Also, what's with this Tom Brady fellatio? This is a Dolphin forum. Until he retires, he gets no say in the Greatest QB list. Same with Manning, and Favre.
     
  9. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    LOL!

    Pennington's QBR is 91.

    Montana's is 92.

    Pennington's INT% is 2.6

    Montana's INT% is 2.6

    Pennington's TD% is 4.5

    Montana's TD% is 5.1



    There, using YOUR method Joe Montana and Chad Pennington are nearly identical QB's.


    Again, when you CHERRY PICK stats, even your "BULK" stats, you will typically get bogus results.
     
  10. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    What ADDITIONAL stats are you using? completion percentage? what? Because NOT ALL STATS are useful.. but then again I believe BB when he says stats are for losers lol
     
  11. Joe Daniels

    Joe Daniels Banned

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    That is the best you can do? Quoting Football Reference? I can use Cold Hard facts who claim Brady is greater than Manning.
     
  12. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    Good point stats don't show a QB taking a sack instead of throwing a pick (hello mr Favre) or throwing it away instead of forcing it into a receiver (again see Favre) a QB can do so many smart things that "hurt" his stats so certain people use it against them.
     
  13. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I didn't start the thread! ;)

    Anyhow, the methods I've used include ALL stats and facts. No "it" or "clutch" factor.


    Basically, the QB compare method I've shown here is best stated:


    A method that attempts to find players whose careers were similar in terms of quality and shape. By shape, we mean things like: how many years did he play? how good were his best years, compared to his worst years? Did he have a few great years and then several mediocre years, or did he have many good-but-not-great years? Essentially, if you run across a player you've never heard of before, and if the list of similar players has some names you recognize, this gives you a quick way to (very roughly) figure out where the guy fits in history.


    Brady, has had 1 (this will be number 2) great years out of 10. So that means he has had many good, but not great years. The ALL TIME GREATS had MANY great years. Now, if Brady plays for 6-7 more years and posts 6-7 more GREAT years like his 2007 and 2010 season, then yes, he may move up my list. However, right now, he is not even close to top 10.
     
  14. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    And I will show you how COld Hard Facts has cherry picked.

    Once more, and then if you still don't get it, I'm done with the debate. I can only repeat myself so much.

    Brady's TOTAL CAREER DOESN'T MATCH UP TO THE TOTAL CAREERS OF THE ALL TIME GREATS.

    At least right now it doesn't.
     
  15. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I'm not the only one.

    These same "experts" also said Aikmen was top 10 all time. Where do you think he is now?

    Year after year, decade after decade, along comes the media's new darling. Bradshaw, Namath, Aikmen and now Brady. All are good QB's, but not one should be considered top 10 all time. They were hyped up while they played (Brady is still playing) but after they retired they went away, unlike the TRUE GREATS.

    Winning is a TEAM stat. If you can show me ONE game...just one game where a QB blocked for himself, handed off to himself, threw a pass to himself, played defense by himself, kicked FG's, KO's and punts, returned those KO's and punts, coached, ran the offense, defense and ST's.....then I'll give in and say that winning is a one man stat. ;)
     
  16. Joe Daniels

    Joe Daniels Banned

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    And I will ask you for the 100th time in what statistical categories does Tom Brady not match up with those all time greats...?
     
  17. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    Marinephin,

    Amazing! BEFORE Brady the Pats were terrible (5-11 and on their way to a worse record in '01) he takes over as QB and that very same year they WIN the SB and in 9 years the team goes to 4 SB 5 AFCCG, and makes the playoffs 7 times. Now factor in he missed 1 year and the stats STAYED the same!! So in 8 years they been to the SB 4 times. So while he is under center the Pats have a 50/50 chance making the SB!!! SWEET!! I take that!!

    Oh wait thats team accomplishments, but the FACT that they stunk the year before without him and were awful that year before he took over means nothing.. ~~sigh~~

    In other words Marinephin the ONLY thing diff from the 5-11 team to the SB wiiner the next year was ONE... BRADY!
     
  18. Joe Daniels

    Joe Daniels Banned

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    Manning is the media darling now you have completely lost your mind.
     
  19. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    The games about wins and loses plus superbowls. Bradey already IS one of the top QB' of all times. Sadly he does not play for the DOlphins.
     
  20. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Brady doesnt deserve credit for the Tuck rule and Adam Vinatieri contributing to 2 of those NE SB wins!

    Manning 1 SB, and Brady 1 SB is the truest measurement

    Brady's career is not over, but I would have him in my top 20 for sure. Probably top 10.
     
  21. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    wHAT EXPERT every CLAIMED Aikman was top 10? I always watched ESPN etc back then and they always gushed over everyone else but Aikman.. But then again Aikman had a HOF RB and HOF WR.. Brady does not, and never did. (Maybe Dillon but I doubt it,,)
     
  22. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    LOL The tuck rule was called right. (I know went against the Pats TWICE that same year), but I agree should be changed. As for the Victory you could give AV the MVP in the 1st SB but the next two Brady just put on an O show.
     
  23. Joe Daniels

    Joe Daniels Banned

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    Even this guy thinks Brady is top ten all time while taking away career achievments.
     
  24. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    It was a horrible call.....horrible.

    AV should have been MVP of 2 of his 3 SB wins. My point is that SB wins (NFL Championships) is not the end all be all.

    But as far as the top 10 Marine posted, I have question marks over Farve, Fouts, or Staubach in top 10 and leaving Brady out.
     
  25. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I already told you.
     
  26. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I'm not sure who my top 10 would be. I threw out some names of some of the great, but I have never really sat down and decided who, out of the true top 20-25 QB's, would be in my top 10.
     
  27. Joe Daniels

    Joe Daniels Banned

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    Hey now.... Manning had more interceptions than touchdowns during his playoff run.
     
  28. frozenfin

    frozenfin Well-Known Member

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    I respectfully bring attention to the following career ratings on pro football reference.

    Advanced Passing

    Yards/Attempt: Brady 109, P Manning 114, Marino 109
    Net Yards/Att: Brady 112, P Manning 121, Marino 120
    Adjusted Y/A: Brady 115, P Manning 116, Marino 112
    Adjusted NY/A: Brady 116, P Manning 120, Marino 119
    Completion %: Brady 112, P Manning 119, Marino 110
    Touchdown %: Brady 118, P Manning 118, Marino 112
    Interception %: Brady 114, P Manning 106, Marino 109
    Sack %: Brady 110, P Manning 123, Marino 125
    Passer Rating: Brady 118, P Manning 118, Marino 113

    Overal average rating: Brady 113.77, P Manning 117.22, Marino 114.33

    Not very different at all.

    Elway comes out to around 105, Unitas 107, Fouts 113.


    Explanation of the Advanced Passing table

    This is a quick look at how a quarterback did compared to league average in eight different passing stats: yards per attempt, adjusted yards per attempt, net yards per attempt, adjusted net yards per attempt, completion percentage, passing TD percentage, interception percentage, and sack percentage.

    Bottom line:

    • On all stats, 100 is league average.
    • On all stats (including sack percentage and interception percentage), a higher number means better than average
    • The greatest passing seasons of all time are in the 140s. A typical league-leading season in most categories will be in the high 120s or the low-to-mid 130s.
    Fine print:
    • Only seasons in which the player attempted 50 or more passes are included in the Advanced Passing table
    • The career score at the bottom is an attempt-weighted average of the numbers in the column. I.e. (yr1 attempts)*(yr1 score) + (yr2 attempts)*(yr2 score) + ..... + (yrN attempts)*(yrN score)
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      total attempts
     
  29. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    I respect where you are coming from, and your claim/stance of Brady as HoF.

    but this list....

    Tom Brady
    Johnny U
    Joe Montana
    John Elway
    Dan Marino
    Bart Starr
    Roger Staubach
    P. Manning (will on day be here)
    Otto Graham
    Steve Young
    Dan Fouts
    Ken Anderson (most people don't realize just how great he was)
    Jim Kelly (most people forget how great he was)
    Sonny Jurgensen
    Sammy Baugh
    YA Tittle
    Fran Tarkenton
    Norm van Brocklin

    Brady is on it, correctly (and thats easy top 18 - Archie should be on it as top 19....would have to think hard to put 20th on there but there are some choices remaining.)....in my mind over Sonny quickly at first blush, and Ken Anderson bottom along with Sonny. If you want to crown Peyton over Brady, you wont get an argument from me. I too think Peyton is the better QB....I love both and what they do, same with Marino...but if you want to place Peyton so far above Brady I think you are missing out on what Brady is.

    Both can be on the same list....both are top 10 on my mental list as both are there above Fouts and Roger...and frankly, just not a huge Favre fan for all his weaknesses that punchuate his career over his durability and raw gun-slinger approach.
     
  30. Joe Daniels

    Joe Daniels Banned

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    Type them....
     
  31. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    Which 2 are you thinking AV deserved it? The 1st SB victory I 100% agree AV earned that one! But outside of that I thought Brady was the MVP of the other 2 SB.. (Branch got the last one for Breaking a record held b y Jerry Rice..)
     
  32. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    The first two....vs STL and CAR....identical key situations where Title was won/lost on the foot of AV. Brady gets his recognition vs. PHI
     
  33. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    No...no...no!

    It was Matt Light who solely won that Super Bowl.

    Wait, no, it was Marc Edwards

    Wait, it was Wiggins

    Maybe David Patten

    Maybe it was the punter, ken Walter?

    Or maybe it was Bryan Cox!?!?!?

    All of these players, and there are more, were starters on the 2001 Pats team and not the 2000 Pats team.
     
  34. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Already did...
     
  35. Joe Daniels

    Joe Daniels Banned

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    Tom Brady's 32 completions were the most in Super Bowl history. His 48 attempts were the most for a winning quarterback. His 354 yards passing is now the fifth best total in Super Bowl history. Branch was the top receiver of the game with 10 receptions for 143 yards and a touchdown. Brown caught 8 passes for 76 yards, and returned 4 punts for 40 yards. Antowain Smith was the top rusher of the game with 83 yards and a touchdown.
     
  36. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    Ahh cool, I gave Brady the CAR one because he put up great numbers and the O was just marching up and down the field... But AV IMO is the best FG kicker of all time especially with the game on the line...
     
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  37. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Another thing people overlook.

    Videotape and Weis.

    Since Weis left and the videotaping stopped they haven't won a Super Bowl. ;)
     
    BigDogsHunt likes this.
  38. Joe Daniels

    Joe Daniels Banned

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    No you didn't
     
  39. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Thanks Capt Obvious.

    Are you going to tell us next that the football isn't really just for the feet?
     
  40. patsfanNH

    patsfanNH New Member

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    Hey THINK a bit.. what was their record after 2 games??? Thats right 0-2 and heading downhill THOSE players were there already.. Again buddy what changed make them SB Winners?? Just one thing BRADY!! thanks for playing enjoy your parting gifts lol
     

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