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Took a Break

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by The_Dark_Knight, Jan 25, 2024.

  1. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    The rule changes, specifically those starting from 1978 and continuing to the present day, have made the passing game far more important than it used to be. It's not that people don't think the "team" is important. Of course it is. But the relative value of different players has changed due to rule changes and/or changes in interpretations of the rules.

    The QB is FAR more important the he has ever been, followed by the WRs, DBs and then those that rush or protect the QB, especially DE and OT. All that is encapsulated into salaries. The biggest difference is the massive decline in value of the RB compared to several decades ago. Back then it was the superstar RB many teams wanted. Now, mostly irrelevant.

    But that doesn't mean "team" is not important. You won't find one GM or HC that would agree with that stance.
     
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  2. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    I think culture in general, and the need for instant gratification specifically, is another reason for the game we see today. Fans are just as much at fault for what we see today in regard to the high turnover of QB’s as are rules changes for making the QB so important and teams giving up on them after only a few years.
    If a HC or QB hasn’t won a Super Bowl in season 2 or 3 it’s time to “blow it up”. Look at this place for example.

    I mean, Tua is 25. 5 Super Bowls have been won by QB’s that age or younger. The average age of a SB winning QB is 31 years old. QB’s don’t get that amount of time anymore.
     
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  3. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I think free agency is the primary reason for the "instant gratification" part. Before 1993 it wasn't easy to get players from other teams, at least not the 37 that were "protected". A lawsuit by players changed that. Once you had far freer movement of players you could start to think of instant gratification more than before. NFL owners tried to prevent losing key players by instituting the salary cap, but that arguably only increased turnover. So even here I think it's more rule changes than anything else.
     
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  4. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I get why and the players should have that freedom, but I miss those days that a player was on your team his entire career and he became synonymous with that franchise.
     
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  5. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Great point. not sure one can build teams like that anymore with the salary cap. It does show how dominate those Redskins teams were and how good of a coach he was.
     
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  6. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. not having a salary cap has kinda ruined baseball. It was great knowing you had a player for 7-8 years. I used to buy jersey's but will not do that anymore since the player is gone by the time it arrives in the mail :)
     
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  7. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    True, but teams aren’t just trading for new QB’s. They’re drafting a QB high, giving him 2-3 years, dumping him and then drafting another. It’s insane. The times where QB’s get to actually sit on the bench and learn is pretty much gone. And the teams that do still do that seem to always have a good QB. Look at the Packers for example. Favre sat on the bench his first year, Rodgers and Love both got multiple years on the bench. In fact, other than Manning, what recent Super Bowl winning QB hasn’t either sat his first year (or more) or been around for a while before winning one?
    I think learning the game and then continuity are key to having a great team. And when you’re just continually trading/drafting QB’s, firing coaches, etc, there’s never a real possibility for either.
     
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  8. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    That is why I wanted Tannehill to sit behind Moore. Tua to sit behind Fitzpatrick.
     
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  9. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Tua should have never played in his first year just because of the hip injury. His body wasn’t fully recovered enough to play pro football yet.
     
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  10. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Tannehill would have been a dud no matter how long he sat. The guy never could carry a team when the rest of the team performed poorly. At least Tua has done that many times, even if he failed to do so when it counted most in do-or-die games. In the end you do see the talent or lack thereof.
     
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  11. Fishhead

    Fishhead Well-Known Member

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    Didn’t Mahomes sit behind Smith his first year? The only other example I could think of.
     
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  12. Fishhead

    Fishhead Well-Known Member

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    Ain’t that the truth!
     
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  13. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Typical post from you, blame the fans! Never the management or players, it's all the fans who don't know how to take losing and be patient. Heck what is 23 years and counting without a playoff win anyways?
     
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  14. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Yeah, it’s not like 9 HC’s and 22 QB’s in 24 years is a lot. Typical whiny post from you not being able to comprehend anything. Lol
     
  15. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Yes he did
     
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  16. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    No one is excusing the ownership nor general managers for the lack of success the Dolphins historically have had the past 20+ years but the outrage of the fan base is a legitimate point.

    As Dan pointed out the high turnover of head coaches and starting quarterbacks is not only an indictment against the front office, but a demonstration of the fan base’s outrage at said ineptitude.

    We all ragged on Wannstedt when the Dolphins started to falter a bit but instead of addressing team needs…perhaps a quarterback to match our running game, the team may have bounced back and Wannstedt’s tenure may have been longer than it had. Just saying.

    Saban, Cameron, Sparano, Philbin, Gase, Flores… Sure that’s on the front office for the repetitive inept hirings but that desperation also falls on the fan base for the lack of patience to build the team for perineal success.

    There are fans HERE, after a head coach’s first 2 years have led the team to the playoffs in his first 2 seasons and instead of judging THAT body of work and objectively looking at what is needed to improve what has been built are already calling for the front office to “blow up” what’s been built in just 2 seasons under this head coach.

    That’s the insanity he’s referring to and points to fans.
     
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  17. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Careful. Too much common sense for some fragile brains may led to an explosion of grey matter. Lol
     
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  18. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Except for a couple things. One, Wanny wasn't fired, he quit. At least officially. And two, he had the chance to draft Drew Brees and passed on him.
     
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  19. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    But it's not common sense, it's excuse-making. No one forced the owner to cater to fan outrage AND there's absolutely no indication that coaches like Wanny or Sparano, for example, would have gotten any better if they hadn't been let go. That's just unwarranted, baseless assumptions.
     
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  20. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Nope. Continuity matters. That’s one of the reasons why injuries affect OL play so much.
    And is it not an assumption to say that they wouldn’t have? I mean, RT left and made the AFCCG after many here said he was a bottom of the barrel QB.
    What’s an excuse is blaming one player for a team’s misgivings. What’s an excuse is blaming a GM that by all objective data is about average in his drafting. What’s an excuse is blaming a HC for everything after 2-3 years in.
    I mean, sure there are circumstances where it’s very objective and apparent that a player isn’t going to cut it. They kill someone, refuse to practice or lie about learning the playbook. Those are good, true life examples. What’s not is blaming a team for not making the Super Bowl on their QB who has been one of the best QB’s in the league over the past few years. That’s called overreacting and ignorance.
     
  21. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Nope. Not if it's continual mediocrity or worse.

    RT went to a team with a hall of fame RB and a great defense.


    Except none of what you just said is true.
     
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  22. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Continual mediocrity due to no continuity?

    Yes, RT went to a better TEAM. Thanks for cementing my point.

    Says who, you? Chris Grier is a middle of the road GM. That is just a provable fact.
     
  23. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Wanny stayed 3.5 years and resigned when the team was 1-8 in his fourth season. His record went down every year. You have no argument.

    RT had the IDEAL team for a QB and could still never get his team to the SB.


    How is it provable? And if it is, why would you settle for a middle of the road anything?
     
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  24. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, if we lost to the Texans...or Pats...or the Jets...or one of many other teams early on, then more of our late-season wins would be considered "do or die". Likewise, if we had beaten the Titans (or any other game), then week 17 against the Ravens and week 18 against the Bills was the opposite of do or die- we could have benched starters for the final few games and it wouldn't have mattered.

    Every game is do or die, they all matter equally as much since 1 win equals exactly 1 win every time.
     
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  25. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    lol.. not every game is do or die. The probability of making the playoffs changes in very different ways whether you win a game early in the season or late. The probability hardly changes early in the season but can change tremendously near the end of the season, making such games for teams in a playoff race closer to “do-or-die”. And of course playoffs are mathematically do or die, i.e., the probability becomes 1 or 0 after the game.

    So no, not every game is equal in importance even if a win is a win.
     
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  26. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Yes, officially Wannstedt quit. Just like officially Shula retired…but we all know the truth. When you’re asked for your resignation…when you’re asked to retire, you’re being fired.

    Secondly, Wannstedt didn’t have a chance to draft Drew Brees, Rick Spielman did. Head coaches can offer their input on who they want to draft but it ultimately comes down to what the front office wants.

    Jamar Fletcher? Yea that was a bust of a draft pick…as are so many 1st round picks but to use hindsight as the basis to say we should have drafted Brees is silly. 32 other teams passed on Brees before he was picked up in San Diego…and then was ultimately traded to New Orleans because he was considered an undersized, injury prone quarterback that wasn’t going to bounce back from his shoulder injury.

    Any of this sound familiar?

    If only COMMON SENSE could prevail in the building of a football team.
     
  27. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    Wannstedt also ran off Marino deciding that Fiedler was the better option.

    95% of us wanted Brees, picking Fletcher when we had Madison and Surtain was insane. Not to mention Fletcher played zone and we were press. I specifically recall when Brees got hurt because all the rumors were at the end of the season he would sign with the Dolphins. When he got hurt I was like oh $hit there goes that.
     
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  28. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Ok, disclaimer…

    DAN MARINO IS THE GOD OF NFL QUARTERBACKS AND NONE WILL EVER BE AS GREAT AS HE WAS!

    Now with that being said, Marino’s final year in the league, he was a shell of his former self. He had a completion percentage of 55%, threw only 12 TD’s to 17 interceptions. Wannstedt didn’t run Marino out of Miami. The Dolphins elected not to exercise the option on his contract and Marino, rather than take the punishment on his knees with another team decided to retire.

    It was time for Dan to ride off in the sunset. Broke my heart when he retired but it was time.

    As for Brees, it’s really easy to look at someone after they retire and have the benefit of playing should’a could’a would’a. Brees had one good year in San Diego and the Chargers screwed up going with Rivers over Brees…but at THAT TIME, it was the logical move.
     
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  29. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    Totally agree on Marino although his demise started with Jimmy.

    When it comes to Brees, the Dolphins chose Culpepper over him, back then maybe understandable. It’s just frustrating, that this franchise makes the wrong decisions over and over and that it proves the fans right more times then not.
     
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  30. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Practically everyone wanted Brees, so it's not hindsight. Even on draft day it was a total shocker for so many we didn't pick him. Also, the Rivers situation would not have occurred in Miami. You're talking about competing against Fiedler, a guy who put up average stats on a really good team. Dolphins were a good QB away from being a top SB contender and we squandered that with Fiedler!

    Not drafting Brees and not taking Brees in FA are two of the biggest mistakes this franchise has made in the past 25 years.
     
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  31. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Not at all accurate. Every fan forum I was on back then, almost everyone wanted to draft Drew Brees. It was a no-brainer in 2000 but unfortunately, Wanny and Spielman had no brains between them.
     
  32. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    maybe logical to them, but I was so thrilled thinking we were going to get Brees then the injury happened and all down hill from there.
     
  33. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Oh I wanted Brees over Culpepper and I was astounded when Miami traded for Culpepper instead of Brees.
     
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  34. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I'll never forget the sign a Dolphins fan was holding at that draft. Something to the affect of "Pick 26 is a Brees!" I can't remember if Miami picked 26 or not, but that's the number I remember in my head. Then they went and Dolphin'd it. Then they did it again. This team has been comically bad at addressing the QB position since Marino. Tua is the best they have done by far and it isn't even close.
     
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  35. Phil Hutchings

    Phil Hutchings Well-Known Member

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    Jim McMahon, in that brilliant Bears team of 1985, wasn’t a an élite Quarterback, but with the personnel he had around him, he had the leadership qualities to take them all the way.

    I still think that is the best roster I have seen.
     
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  36. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Dan...it's a difference in belief in what the outcome will be. Myself and others just don't think that our odds of winning a Super Bowl go up with Tua long-term. Honestly, I'll be surprised if he ever plays on a roster as talented as this team, if the Dolphins sign him long-term. I think that it's much more likely that, due to his increasing salary, other positions will suffer. Yeah they might be able have the contract done in such a way that his salary won't be a real hit until his last couple seasons on it, but that just means that it makes the first couple seasons slightly more doable. I think this season was our best shot. The injuries ****ing sucked, I agree. In a perfect world with no major injuries to our team, we dominate the bad teams like we did this season, but we would have played better against better teams. But we had the injuries and they wrecked this season. Sure, next season might be good, maybe we just franchise Tua so we can still allocate significant resources to the his weapons.

    But at some point that can can't be kicked down the road, and we have to either sign him long-term or try to trade him. I just think you have a 5-6 year window to draft your QB and win a Super Bowl, while your QB is in his rookie contract. After that it's much harder.

    We need a TE. We need an offensive line. We need some better backups. That's a ton of needs. Plus a new defense?

    Brutal.
     
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  37. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Fully agree.

    Free agency has killed the loyalty that players used to have to the cities and franchise and vice versa.

    Now the players are nothing more than a commodity.
     
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  38. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Partially it's that those guys couldn't build success. If they were showing success, they don't get fired. Other than extenuating circumstances, like with Flores.
     
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  39. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Steve mcmichael just got inducted

    I think that’s like 7 players in one team ?
     
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  40. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    That's nonsense though. People aren't blaming the head coach that's been here for 2 years!! People are blaming Grier who has been here for 24 years and has been GM for 8 years, and Ross who hasn't yet recognized the snake Grier is.

    Wanting to blow up what Grier has built isn't the same as wanting to blowup what McDaniel has.
     
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