I still don't think his stock will be anything different than what it has been. He could still very well be gone to New England before our pick, regardless of those draft boards and rankings. Thanks Big Red for the research and post by the way.
Very nice work, but I have to respectfully disagree with a lot of the guys you list here, particulalry in the first. I am certainly not a draftnik and have not looked at as many of these guys on film as I am sure you have, but we have to consider Parcells drafting tendencies here as much as these rankings, in addtion to our roster needs. I would be shocked if a WR was our #1 pick, even as great as the need is, and I am all over the need for a bigger true #1, and where he comes from and starts immediately is a real issue, no doubt, but not #1. A left tackle? No way, I don't care if he is BPA, we move Carey, we don't re-sign Carey, we need depth, we were all over him at the Senior Bowl, or otherwise. There are too many other critical needs and choices than to make an OT #1. A 5'9" CB?, don't see it. We need size at every positon on this team. I think that the minimum size credentials they use have not changed and a smallish CB is NOT what this secondary needs, it is just the opposite. A young 1 yr starter, not strong at the POA, vastly undersized by their standards at DE/OLB in Maybin? Not so sure either, we need a contribution from the #1 right away, can't wait for some to GET stronger.....see Shawn Murphy. Laurinatis may also be maxed out physically and I am not so sure about his ability to stand up physically to what we need at ILB and I am also not convinced that Parcells would use this high of a pick on an ILB, particulalry one who may have physical limitations. Raji could certainly make sense, but there too, I don't think this is a position that gets a #1 grade by Parcells and a short plugger type of NT, has not been the history of who they put at that position. You look at Ferguson and Jay Ratliff in Dallas, BOTH were 7th rounders. They are taller, more active DT types, but of course very strong at the point which is really the key to the player at NT/DT. Ratliff is going to the Pro Bowl this year and we know about Ferguson. I understand potential and all of the other intangibles that go in to these evaluations, but I just see too many holes in these first round options based on what we are looking for. I would think that one of the other OLB/DE conversion prospects or interior OL, may be there for us and much more likely choices.
Thanks. You have to remember that Jeff Ireland considers the No. 1 receiver a core position. You also have to look at Parcells' history not just his draft tendencies. His second year with the Giants they drafted Lionel Manuel. His second year with the Pats they drafted Kevin Lee early in the 2nd round. His second year with the Jets they already had Keyshawn Johnson but his second year with the Cowboys he signed Keyshawn as a free agent. Hakeem Nicks is a very talented wideout and he would make our offense a lot more explosive. Taking all that into consideration if certain players are off the board then I would not be shocked at all if a wideout was our #1 pick. You have to include Michael Oher as a potential prospect until we see what happens with Vernon Carey. If we let Carey walk then Oher could be at the top of our wish list. Normally I would agree with you but Alphonso Smith is such a ballhawk you simply can't write him off due to his size. Three interceptions in three Senior Bowl practices and he very nearly had another one in the game! Plus he isn't afraid of contact and makes more than his fair share of tackles against the run. You have to let the draft come to you. What if Maybin goes on to become a Hall of Fame player? You have to look at these players with their potential in mind. Especially in the 1st round. You cannot pass up a guy just because he might not contribute on all three downs right off the bat. Plus Joey Porter is 31 years old. What's wrong with Maybin learning from a defensive player of the year nominee and eventually taking his place? I have mixed feelings about James Laurinaitis but I have no doubt he is on the Dolphins draft board and he would be the best ILB prospect on the board without question. All true. However Raji said Bill Parcells talked to him at the Senior Bowl about playing NT for the Dolphins. The popular opinion right now is that Raji won't be on the board when we pick but every year a player slides for whatever reason. I don't see many teams picking ahead of us who have a need at NT and I believe Peria Jerry is more likely to be drafted by a 4-3 team with a need a DT. Larry English, Clint Sintim, Brian Cushing, and Clay Matthews are definitely possibilities but Maybin would be my choice. Plus I believe at least one of those other four will be available in the 2nd round. I don't know about the interior OL. Smiley and Thomas are returning from injury so I don't believe Guard is a priority and there are a lot of great Center prospects who will be available in the 2nd or 3rd round.
Updated my list now that the Combine is over. Round 1 NT B.J. Raji, Boston College TE Brandon Pettigrew, Oklahoma State OLB Aaron Maybin, Penn State ILB James Laurinaitis, Ohio State CB Darius Butler, UConn WR Hakeem Nicks, North Carolina Round 2 OLB Connor Barwin, Cincinnati WR Kenny Britt, Rutgers NT Ron Brace, Boston College TE James Casey, Rice CB Sean Smith, Utah C Eric Wood, Louisville WR Juaquin Iglesias, Oklahoma C Jonathan Luigs, Arkansas Round 3 NT Sen'Derrick Marks, Auburn ILB Tyrone McKenzie, South Florida CB/KR Asher Allen, Georgia OG/OT Andy Levitre, Oregon State OT Fenuki Tupou, Oregon OLB Cody Brown, Connecticut C Antoine Caldwell, Alabama WR Ramses Barden, Cal Poly Round 4 TE Travis Beckum, Wisconsin SS/FS Emanuel Cook, South Carolina WR Brandon Tate, North Carolina ILB Scott McKillop, Pittsburgh OG Tyronne Green, Auburn OLB Kyle Moore, USC CB Kevin Barnes, Maryland RB James Davis, Clemson FB Tony Fiammetta, Syracuse C A.Q. Shipley, Penn State Round 5 NT Vance Walker, Georgia Tech SS/FS Otis Wiley, Michigan State TE Bear Pascoe, Fresno State CB Joe Burnett, UCF WR Patrick Turner, USC ILB Frantz Joseph, FAU FB Quinn Johnson, LSU RB Ian Johnson, Boise State OG Andy Kemp, Wisconsin OT Joel Bell, Furman Round 7 OLB Victor Butler, Oregon State SS/FS Trimane Goddard, North Carolina CB Don Carey, Norfolk State OG Ray Feinga, BYU FB Brannan Southerland, Georgia NT Roy Miller, Texas RB Gartrell Johnson, Colorado State C Cecil Newton, Tennessee State K Graham Gano, FSU OT/OG Robert Brewster, Ball State ILB Robert Francois, Boston College TE Kory Sperry, Colorado State QB Willie Tuitama, Arizona
One of the considerations for the team has to be if there are so many top OLBs available in the fringe 1st-2nd isn't it likely that one will be there at 44? Plus if you don't take one it opens up the option of taking Alex Mack at 26.
IMO Larry English has to be considered in round 1 along with Mack. Right now I think Mack, Nicks and English are our top three most likely picks come April. I would add Unger to the possible 2nd round picks as I think we'll pick a C there if we don't get Mack in the 1st. I'd also add DJ Moore as a 2nd round consideration.
I could also see them taking Mack dropping down maybe a couple picks and the moving back up to get Clint Sintim who could very well be an ideal Joey Porter replacement who is ready to play. OLB-C-CB is my expectation. Many expect WR but I don't.
I dont either, at least not in the first. If we dont resign Goodman, I think CB should be our top priority. I see us going C later in the draft as well, not first overall.
I totally agree. I said the same thing a few posts back. I don't believe we'll draft Mack. We've already got a lot of money tied up in the offensive line with the contracts of Jake Long and Vernon Carey. Smiley gets a nice chunk of change too. It's much more likely that we take Wood, Luigs, or Caldwell in the 2nd or 3rd. I believe all three have just as much potential as Mack, would be a good fit, and they would all come at much less of a price. I agree about Nicks and I've already stated my case against Mack. I really like Larry English but he didn't exactly blow the doors off the Combine. A 4.90 forty? His bench press, 3-cone, and short shuttle weren't awful but they weren't great either. Just average. Nice vertical of 36" but not exactly head and shoulders above anybody else. Plus he lacks the ideal height that Ireland and Parcells prefer in an OLB. Connor Barwin strikes me as having much more potential. Plus there's the added value of Barwin as a redzone target. Now if Barwin is off the board I would no problem taking English at #44 but as we stand today English is rated higher and Barwin is more likely to be there when our 2nd round pick rolls around. I prefer Wood and Luigs to Unger but I'm open-minded. Why should I consider Unger to be better? If he's still on the board I'm sure the Dolphins will be considering him as well as Sean Smith. Who do you think is more likely to still be there at #44? I still don't think a wideout is completely out of the question but I agree that CB is looking more and more like a priority.
I think people are putting way to much stock into his forty yard dash time. He's not going to be running 40 yards downfield. And regarding the height, he's 6'2". He's fine IMO.
The contract for the 25th pick in the 1st isn't that high. It's only the top 10 that are really prohibitive. Ginn's cap # is about $2 million. Mack's would probably be about half that. What makes English special is his first step. The 40 is irrelevant. That's what separates him from Sintim or Barwin. One of those guys would be fine at #44 though. Unger's big strength is versatility. He can play all five positions. I think Moore is more likely to last to #44. Smith is more likely a S IMO. The PI rules have neutered the CB position so it doesn't have much impact. There's no such thing as a shut down corner anymore. I think that's why there are so many big name CBs still on the market. Most teams have figured that out. A few like the Raiders and Broncos are still over paying, but the market is definitely smaller. S, on the other hand, has become an impact position. As a result CBs will go later and Ss will go earlier.
It's not just his 40. His 40 was awful but his other workout numbers were just average. "Average" is not what you like to see in the 1st round. Keeping in mind that the Combine is only one aspect of the evaluation process here's how Larry English looks so far. Game tape: Excellent Production: Excellent Level of Competition: Poor Size: Good Durability: Poor - has a history of being injured Toughness: Good - played through injuries Character: Excellent Leadership: Excellent Senior Bowl: Excellent in practice, Poor in the game Combine: Average Interviews: Can't say because I don't know Football intelligence: Can't say because I don't know A really great workout would have pushed him into the 1st round in my opinion. His injury history, level of competition, and Combine concern me a little bit. However, I love his intangibles, non-stop motor, and what I saw of his game tape. For me Larry English is very tough evaluation.
Personally, I believe a 1st round LB should flash excellence on the field. English does that with a first step that looks special. I would only take English if I think he has the possibility of becoming Demarcus Ware. If he doesn't then I would rather take from the large group of athletic LBs that always fall to the later rounds. Sintim and Barwin don't flash excellence on the field. They flash good. They have great athletic potential. They have good all-around games. IMO that makes you a 2nd round LB. That being said, I think OLB is a lower priority position than C, WR, CB, S, and ILB. We just have a ton of them. And Wake is a guy who flashed on-field excellence in the CFL and had combine numbers almost identical to Demarcus Ware's. He also reportedly has great character and football intelligence. I don't know how you rate the CFL for competition level but IMO it's at least comparable to a mid-major even accounting for the game differences. So I don't feel the OLB cupboard is bare. I still think we should double up primarily due to Porter's age, but it doesn't have to be early.
Good point. The 25th pick last year was Mike Jenkins who will earn $657,500 in 2009. The 44th pick was Matt Forte who will earn $385,000 in 2009. Neither of those numbers are really prohibitive like you said. Guess I've gotten used to the Dolphins picking in the top half of the draft. I'll add Mack to the end of the 1st round. I really only see us taking him if everybody else we want is off the board. His first step definitely separates him but I wouldn't say his 40 is irrelevant. There's a reason they make prospects run it at the Combine. It has taken on too much relevance in the last few years but it is still a good indicator of speed. The best thing about it is that it helps you to compare and contrast players. For example, when it comes to backside pursuit I'd rather have Connor Barwin who ran a 4.66 forty. That's also why I don't like him. I mean what is he? Is he a center? Is he a guard? Is he a right tackle? I'd rather see us take a pure center who plays with strength and can ignite our power running attack than a versatile guy who I'm not really sure where he's going to end up on the o-line. And the Panthers, Giants, Colts, Texans, Ravens, and Redskins. Hey, I know the safeties had a huge impact in the playoffs this year but I don't believe that makes the CB position less important. If anything the rule change about no more force-outs make corners more valuable so I respectfully disagree.
I looked at the franchise tags by position. And while I don't think this is probative I think it might hint at where things are going. Franchise tags by position --------------------------2009-----------------2008----------% change Quarterback------ --$14,651,000---------$10,730,000-------26% Offensive Linemen- $8,451,000----------$7,455,000-------11.8% Wide Receiver-------$9,884,000----------$7,848,000-------20.6% Running Back--------$6,621,000----------$6,538,000-------1.25% Tight end-------------$4,462,000----------$4,522,000------(1.34%) Defensive End-------$8,991,000----------$8,879,000-------1.25% Defensive Tackle----$6,058,000----------$6,363,000------(5.03%) Linebacker-----------$8,304,000----------$8,065,000-------2.88% Cornerback----------$9,957,000----------$9,465,000-------4.94% Safety----------------$6,342,000----------$4,396,000-------30.7% Kicker or Punter-----$2,483,000----------$2,514,000------(1.25%) The numbers here indicate big jumps at QB, WR and S and a little less on the OL. All the other positions aren't moving much. Now here is Ireland's idea of what the core positions are: "There are certain core positions you have to have," Ireland said, listing cornerback, left tackle, a pass rusher, quarterback, a top receiver and nose tackle. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft08/news/story?id=3351721 IMO the numbers are a bit diluted for LT b/c the franchise tag includes the whole OL. NT is a bit diluted b/c it's only a core position if you run a 3-4. Most teams didn't until recently. I'm not sure what the 4-3/3-4 breakdown is now. Pass rusher is also difficult b/c depending on the defense they could be DEs or LBs and frankly LB is one of those disposable positions, like RB. And as more teams shift to a 3-4 then more pass rushers will come from LBs than DEs. Now S is not listed as a core position but my speculation is that the impact that used to lie in the CB position is shifting to S. The reason for this is that shut down corners don't exist anymore. If you want to stop the pass, your best bet is to get pressure on the passer and/or punish the WR when he catches the ball. Also in the Club, Nabocane did a SB positional analysis to find find which positions were SB winners most likely to have pro-bowl players at. These were his results: Safeties: 35 of 43/81% — 16 of 43/37% — 55 of 86/64% Tailbacks: 31 of 43 / 72% Centers: 29 of 43 / 68%. Tight Ends: 24 of 43 / 56% Cornerbacks: 30 of 43/70% — 11 of 43/26% — 41 of 86/48% Quarterbacks: 41 of 43/95% Offensive Tackles: 34 of 43/79% — 12 of 43/28% — 47 of 85/55% Wide Receivers: 36 of 43/84% — 22 of 43/51% — 59 of 85/69% The second number is how many teams had two pro-bowlers at the respective position and the third number accounts for positions with more potential slots. As you can see CB is the only position where there is a pro-bowler at less than half the slots. And coincidentally there hasn't been a single pro-bowl CB on the SB winning team in the last 5 years. Now none of this definitely proves anything. Franchise tag numbers can be thrown out of whack by one team over-paying and the pro-bowl is often a better indication of popularity than talent but I think there's a trend in here that the smarter teams are not going to ignore. It's something I've been noticing over the last few seasons. I may be right or I may be wrong but I don't think the idea is something out of left field despite the automatic response that CB is a core position b/c we've all been taught that over the years. I think it's something that has a reasonable basis behind it.
Another way to look at these numbers is to say CB has always been more highly valued than safety. Just kidding. Those are some interesting numbers. The Pro Bowl/Super Bowl correlation doesn't really work for me. Its a team sport. Individual achievement is just icing on the cake. Its pretty close to impossible to win without a QB but other than that you need talent and heart at every position. I don't buy that there's no such thing as a shutdown corner anymore. You still need a CB who can cover the opponent's best wideout. Always have. Always will.
In my opinion, too much stock is put into the measurements and not enough stock is put into the game tape. Why? Because you have players who haven't had the best numbers and have been productive. Yes, his forty yard dash was poor compared to others but you watch him on tape and he's got arguably the quickest first three steps, he's got great pursuit and lateral speed and can get after the Quarterback. I'm not worried about his straight line time. He's had a torn ACL, which he recovered from and won defensive player of the year in his conference I believe. He had six pins in his hand this past season and still played. He has a slight injury concern but I don't see it as poor. They played a 4-3 and he played with his hand in the dirt if I remember correctly. Get him standing up and rushing off the edge, he would have been fine. I've seen more than five games of him. The combine numbers aren't the prettiest but he makes an impact in the games rushing off the edge. As I said in another thread, if we went off of combine numbers and forty yard dash, Terrell Suggs would be a bust because IIRC, he ran a similar time as English. And just a note, I'm not arguing him as a first rounder. I said back in September he would be an early second rounder and I'm sticking by that. Would I be surprised if he went to the Patriots in the first round? Absolutely not. Would I be surprised if he was an early second round pick? Absolutely not.
They may decide to take any of the best OLBs at 44 and flat out get the CB they prefer at 26. It could be that they all become so close that they just resort to the draft sifting through players for them to decide.
I agree that CB has always been more highly valued, I'm just not sold that it always will be. In fact, it would seem that the last 4 SB winners all valued their Ss more than their CBs. And of course it's a team sport but some positions have more impact than others. You rightly pointed out that QB is one of those and the Pro Bowl/Super Bowl correlation supports it. But that correlation also supports the concept that several other positions have more impact than CB. It seems inconsistent to believe that the correlation would be accurate for QB but not for other positions. And if you still believe in shut down corners watch when any of them is actually thrown against in a one on one situation. The difference between an elite corner and a serviceable one is that the elite gets burnt or gets a PI penalty 50% of the time and a serviceable one gets burnt or a PI penalty 60% of the time. And coincidentally one of the guys who agrees with me is Bill Parcells. Here is a quote from an article in 2005: But listen to Dallas coach Bill Parcells. Has the cornerback position been devalued, Bill? "Absolutely. I think a lot of people share that sentiment. Unless they alter the rulebook, I'm not sure corners can make the difference they once did." With the way the NFL is enforcing pass interference rules, the cornerback with elite skills doesn't have much of an advantage over the cornerback with ordinary skills. Not one NFL cornerback had a dominant season in 2004. Show me a corner in the league who can shut down an elite receiver by himself. Chris McAlister of the Ravens couldn't prevent Terrell Owens from catching eight balls for 101 yards. Champ Bailey wasn't bad in his first season in Denver, but he helped make Chad Johnson of the Bengals a Pro Bowler, and Jerry Porter of the Raiders will be a rich man in part because of how he lit up Bailey. The Redskins lost Bailey, considered the premier cover man in football, and improved from the 20th-ranked pass defense to the seventh. Ty Law has proved so irreplaceable that the Patriots have gone 10-1 without him.
English is just not our guy Alen, it could happen, but look at what you've rebutted 1. Injury history? ACL..no problem 2. Slow 40? Hey, great first step. 3. Disappeared at Senior Bow?l..they were running a 4-3 4. Toughest competition he faced in college was Ball State?...hey but he shined! Small college players have to be dominant to be Day 1 picks, and when he faced mild competition in the Senior Bowl, he vanished.. Look at Sidbury, solid workouts, solid practices, made an impact in both the Shrine Game and the Senior Bowl, he's faster, stronger, and doesn't have the ACL history.
They altered the rulebook. Put it another way, when the Giants won the SB, Wes Welker was blanketed by (iirc) Sam Madison...
Prove to me why he isn't our guy because I absolutely disagree with you. He's absolutely a consideration for us. You may not be a fan of him but don't dismiss him as a possible selection come April. Do you know that Larry English had more sacks than Demarcus Ware coming out of his "small college" ? Did you also know that he had the same amount of tackles for loss coming out? Did you also know that English had more tackles than Ware coming out of college? Did you also know that Ware was considered a third to fourth round selection prior to the combine when he was coming out? Do you know why I'm comparing these two players? Because you've brought up Demarcus Ware in another thread for comparison and they both went to a "small college". I fail to understand why you consistently bring up Lawrence Sidbury. He's a good player in his own right. And how many times do we go over the faster part? I've seen tapes of Sidbury and he is not faster or quicker than English off the edge. The ACL history was in the past and English has clearly healed from it and has no issues. Have you watched him play? Its clear that he has no lingering injuries or issues from the ACL tear.
To play devil's advocate there are players who have had great numbers and also been very productive. Calvin Johnson was considered the best wideout coming out in 2007. He ran a 4.39 forty at the Combine. This past season he finished 5th in yardage and tied with Larry Fitzgerald for 1st with twelve touchdowns. I'm not saying every wideout that runs a 4.39 forty is going to be as successful as Calvin Johnson. However it is nice when the Combine workout matches the performance on tape. Especially when you're looking at tape of NIU versus Minnesota, Western Michigan, Indiana State, Eastern Michigan, Miami (OH), Toledo, Bowling Green, Central Michigan, Kent State, Navy, and Louisiana Tech. You're forgetting he took a medical redshirt after a season ending injury in 2004. That's injuries in 3 out of 5 years. I think that classifies as poor. I agree. Hey, I like Larry English a lot. However if you're going to draft him in the 1st round you want to be completely sold on him. Sounds like you are. I have a few reservations. I like him better with our first pick in the 2nd round. If he's still on the board. Chances are he won't be there but Connor Barwin will be and that's fine by me. I like Barwin a lot too. DeMarcus Ware ran a 4.56 forty at the Combine. Shawne Merriman ran a 4.64 at his Pro Day. A bad workout at the Combine doesn't mean Larry English is a bad player. However it doesn't help his draft stock. What are we arguing about then? BTW Mayock just slammed Maybin on PATH TO THE DRAFT tonight. Says he can't carry the extra weight. That's a problem when you're talking about Parcells and Ireland who want big players.
They didn't alter the rule book enough to make CBs an impact position again. And by that point Madison was an older player who had to take a pay cut to stay with the team. In other words he was no where near an elite CB. Which is my point, elite CBs are a waste of money or high draft picks. The rules are so slanted against them that they only rarely do better than a mid-level guy.
I disagree with that analysis, the Pats couldn't make plays on Ross and the other Cb, so the fate of the game came down to Madison v Welker, that is why depth is required in the secondary, the weakest coverage link will be exploited. Our #3 is Joey Thomas at the moment...
No, the game was decided by the NY defensive line. That's how you stop a passing game in today's NFL. In fact, that defensive line is what everybody talked about after the game. It's revisionist history to now claim it was the CBs that were the difference in the game.
We could be looking at a trend... or it could just be coincidence. Something to keep an eye on for sure. To play devil's advocate again here are the last four Super Bowl winners and their starting cornerbacks. Pittsburgh Steelers - No Pro Bowl corners but Bryant McFadden, Ike Taylor, and Deshea Townsend are no slouches. New York Giants - Sam Madison has 4 Pro Bowls on his resume and Aaron Ross was a 1st round draft pick. Indianapolis Colts - Actually your point is made here because Indy's corners were not great. However this team wasn't exactly known for it's defense either. FWIW the team they were playing had Charles Tillman and Nathan Vasher starting at CB. New England Patriots - Ty Law has 5 Pro Bowls on his resume and Asante Samuel has 2. So it seems that having a great CB doesn't exactly hurt your chances in the Super Bowl either. Its not inconsistent. Ask anybody and they'll tell you the NFL is a quarterback-driven league. Beyond that every other position can have a major impact on a game in their own way. WR - Obviously can turn a game around in a hurry by scoring on a long bomb. RB - Can do likewise by scoring on a big run or can help their team protect a lead by chewing up the clock. FB - Can move the chains be converting short yardage situations keeping drives alive. Can score on short touchdown runs. Also important lead blockers. TE - Can have a major impact in the redzone. Very important in any blocking scheme. OL - That touchdown run by the the running back or fullback would not possible without these guys. Plus they give the QB time to throw. DL - A sack is a drive killer. Tipped passes can lead to interceptions. LB - Can prevent the chains from moving by making a big play on third down or make a big hit that fires up the team. Good for an occasional interception as well. The front seven can also force fumbles and occasionally make interceptions. CB - A pick six can turn a game around. S - Can also notch a pick six or make a big hit that fires up the team. K - Can win the game with a field goal. Are you really going to tell me that any one of those things is more important than the other? For example if you have a great QB but your wideouts can't catch a cold then your team will suck. If you have the best pass rusher in the league but your running back keeps fumbling the ball in the redzone then your team will suck. If you have the best safety to ever play the game but your offensive line can't block then your team will suck. Are you making those numbers up or are those actual stats? To me an elite corner is a guy with great recovery speed. Did you see that play Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie made in the first half of the Super Bowl? He single-handedly prevented a touchdown. Shutdown corner or not, that is a guy I want on my team. Wow. Great find. Well, what can I say to that? However they did change the rules a little by saying no more “forceouts.”
Ask Tom Brady if CB was an impact position in the 2005 and 2006 playoffs. I don't know man. I feel like an idiot disagreeing with Bill Parcells but there's a reason Asante Samuel was the highest paid free agent last year. Its a big mistake to undervalue the CB position if you ask me.
"What everyone talked about"? When the media builds rosters, you have Jerry Jones making commercials.
The game ball absolutely goes to New York's defensive line. However I find it more than a little odd that the media expects us to believe that the cornerbacks had zero effect in that game. IIRC Tom Brady threw four passes at the end of that game. The receiver was covered all four times. It's a symbiotic relationship between secondary and front seven. Its like saying you can have great pizza as long as the crust is great. However bad cheese can ruin a pizza.
It's not the media that's saying CBs are devalued. Most are saying the same old line we've all been repeating for years. And I'm not saying that the whole secondary has been devalued. The S position has increased in value. And it's not that CBs don't matter, it's just that some positions have a a higher correlation with success so if you want to win it makes more sense to allocate more of your resources to those positions. The salary cap makes you make choices on which positions to skimp on. It makes the most sense to skimp on the positions that have less of a correlation with success. So which positions have the greatest impact? On offense: QB, LT, WR, C, RT. You skimp on FB, Gs, K and TE (unless he's a great play-maker). RB is an anomaly b/c it has a high correlation but the short shelf life makes them interchangeable. On defense: pressure players (DE and/or OLB depending on your D), NT (in a 3-4), S. You skimp on CB, ILB and P.
XLIII - 2008: Pittsburgh Steelers: Ike Taylor (none) Bryant McFadden (none) XLII - 2007: NY Giants: Aaron Ross (none) Corey Webster (none) XLI - 2006: Indy Colts: Nick Harper (none) Jason David (none) XL - 2005: Pittsburgh Steelers: Ike Taylor (none) Deshea Townsend (none) These are the guys I have winning the last four SBs. None of the starters were Pro bowl CBs. And Madison was a long way from the pro bowl CB he used to be. NE wasn't among the last 4 and I believe Law was gone for the last SB. Samuel was there but remember he was a 4th rd pick. So yes, my point is that it's a trend. It's one that not every team has caught on to but the successful ones seemed to have figured out. I'm going to tell you that some of those things are more correlated with winning teams. It could be b/c some are more likely than others or it could be some other reason. But the teams that have the play-makers at QB, WR, RB, pressure players and S win more often than those that have their play-makers at other positions. That's completely made up. It's just my observations from examples like the ones in the Sporting News article. And it's not that a CB can't make a play, it's just that the elite guys don't make significantly more than the mid-level guys so why does it make sense for a team to spend significantly more for an elite guy? I just don't see the force out change as significantly leveling the playing field for CBs.
There are players that come and go in the NFL that have been successful and have played at a faster speed than their forty yard dash time indicated. The one that we, as football fans, always look to is Jerry Rice. In this case, its Larry English running a poor forty but playing faster and quicker on the football field. I can understand your concern over his poor forty yard dash but those times don't mean much to me, especially at his position. Your correct. He's played through injuries however and has shown no signs of slowing down when playing with them. Case and point is against Ball State this past season. Played with six pins in his wrist and got triple-teamed on the football field. Hey, I would love to have him with our first pick in the second round. If we can get an impact player at twenty-five and then come back with English at 2A, I will be very happy. You tell me, I figured we were discussing his playing speed and his combine speed.
Wow. That's pretty crazy. It could just be a coincidence though. When you look at the cornerbacks who have made the Pro Bowl the last few years you will notice that the teams they play on have been very successful. Charles Woodson and Al Harris, Green Bay Cortland Finnegan, Tennessee Asante Samuel, Philadelphia and New England Lito Sheppard, Philadelphia Ronde Barber, Tampa Bay Marcus Trufant, Seattle Terence Newman, Dallas Champ Bailey, Denver Antonio Cromartie, San Diego Antoine Winfield, Minnesota Rasheen Mathis, Jacksonville Chris McAlister, Baltimore DeAngelo Hall, Atlanta Darrelle Revis, New York Jets Nnamdi Asomugha has been stuck in Oakland. Aside from the Raiders and maybe the Jesters those are playoff-caliber teams who have often won their division. I assumed you meant the last 4 teams to win the Super Bowl. Why look at the Steelers twice? Other than adding Bryant McFadden their cornerback situation didn't radically change. Deshea Townsend played in all 16 games for them last year. Ty Law was starting for the Pats when they won in 2004. Asante Samuel was in his second year. So you don't need play-makers at FB, TE, OL, CB, and K? What would the '85 Bears have been without William "The Fridge" Perry. The 49ers wound not have advanced to the Super Bowl in 1982 if Dwight Clark hadn't made "The Catch." Our very own Dolphins would not have gone from 1-15 to 11-5 without Jake Long. The Pats would not have won Super Bowl XXXVI or Super Bowl XXXVIII without Adam Vinatieri. You make a lot of really great points Rafael. Definitely food for thought. Even though we disagree I really enjoyed our back-n-forth.
Sounds like we both like English in the 2nd round. His 40 time does concern me a little. Its not a deal-breaker by any means but if you're picking him in the 1st round you'd like to see him run in the 4.7 range at least. Since he didn't if you're a general manager you have to say screw the 40. This is football not a track meet. However I guarantee you Parcells felt a whole lot better about drafting DeMarcus Ware after he ran a 4.56 at the Combine. FWIW Mario Williams ran a 4.70, Gaines Adams ran a 4.64, and Chris Long ran a 4.75 at the Combine. Those were just three easy ones to look up. For example I couldn't find Jason Taylor's 40 time.
I think this is the crux of our discussion. You need play-makers everywhere but some have greater impact than others and some require greater expenses than others. There's a reason why FBs, K, and Ps are rarely taken in the 1st round. The salary cap makes you decide which positions you're going to spend the bulk of your resources on b/c there isn't enough room to bring in the highest priced guy at every position. It's also probably impossible to have a 1st round pick at every position. So how do you decide?
True. That is the crux of it. Its hard to decide. If you've got Tony Gonzalez at TE isn't it smart to show him the money? If Walter Payton or Adrian Peterson is your running back, Larry Csonka is your fullback, Steve Hutchinson is your OG, Ray Lewis is your ILB, Ray Guy is your punter, and Deion Sanders is your CB doesn't it make sense to spend the money on them? Belichick decided to let Adam Vinatieri walk. That certainly seemed to work out for him but you know who it really worked out for? Peyton Manning and Tony Dungy. I get your point Rafael. I just hate to devalue any position on the football field. Those comments from Parcells about the CB position are very telling. However so is what we have been doing in free agency. It certainly looks like we are going to draft CB in the first round this year.
IMO the decision as to whether or not you show any of those guys the money, (And by that I mean pay them more than the position usually warrants). Is to determine whether they are so good that they make a greater impact than their position usually provides. And that the impact is enough to offset the potential loss of impact at another position you're going to have to spend less money on. B/c whenever you decide to pay any of those guys the money you less money to use elsewhere.
So here's my final updated list. Round 1 WR Hakeem Nicks, North Carolina TE Brandon Pettigrew, Oklahoma State NT Peria Jerry, Mississippi ILB James Laurinaitis, Ohio State OLB Robert Ayers, Tennessee CB Darius Butler, UConn Round 2 WR Kenny Britt, Rutgers WR Juaquin Iglesias, Oklahoma TE James Casey, Rice TE Cornelius Ingram, Florida OG Duke Robinson, Oklahoma NT Ron Brace, Boston College NT Sen'Derrick Marks, Auburn OLB Connor Barwin, Cincinnati OLB Larry English, Northern Illinois OLB Clint Sintim, Virginia CB Sean Smith, Utah Round 3 WR Louis Murphy, Florida TE Travis Beckum, Wisconsin C Antoine Caldwell, Alabama NT Dorell Scott, Clemson ILB Tyrone McKenzie, South Florida CB Coye Francies, San Jose State SS Chip Vaughn, Wake Forest Round 4 WR Patrick Turner, USC TE Richard Quinn, North Carolina OT Fenuki Tupou, Oregon C Jonathan Luigs, Arkansas OLB Kyle Moore, USC SS/FS Courtney Greene, Rutgers Round 5 WR Johnny Knox, Abilene Christian RB James Davis, Clemson FB Tony Fiammetta, Syracuse NT Vance Walker, Georgia Tech OG Tyronne Green, Auburn OT Andrew Gardner, Georgia Tech ILB Frantz Joseph, FAU SS/FS Emanuel Cook, South Carolina Round 6 RB Ian Johnson, Boise State FB Quinn Johnson, LSU OG Louis Vasquez, Texas Tech OT Lydon Murtha, Nebraska ILB Lee Robinson, Alcorn State CB Don Carey, Norfolk State P Kevin Huber, Cincinnati Round 7 WR Deon Butler, Penn State RB Gartrell Johnson, Colorado State FB Marquez Branson, Central Arkansas TE Kory Sperry, Colorado State OG Greg Isdaner, West Virginia OT Robert Brewster, Ball State ILB Robert Francois, Boston College OLB Victor Butler, Oregon State CB Captain Munnerlyn, South Carolina FS Lendy Holmes, Oklahoma K/P Graham Gano, FSU
