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trading up

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by scotty_irnbru, Apr 22, 2014.

  1. scotty_irnbru

    scotty_irnbru Well-Known Member

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    Apologies if this is in the wrong forum.
    The consensus is everyone wants to trade down and acquire picks so it's surely a buyers market. I like Sammy Watkins. Watching clips of him makes me like him a lot. I'd be perfectly happy trading up for him if it could be done. On a podcast somewhere someone compared him to Calvin Johnson. I'd happily, very happily give up two firsts for a player of that quality. Am I deluded or crazy?
     
  2. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Watkins would be way too high. Might be able to get Evans
     
  3. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    Not crazy if you really like the player. But, if you are giving up multiple first round picks to move up into top 5, there is an argument whether that pick should be Watkins at all.
     
  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sammy is a great player, I just don't think we're in a position to allocate that many resources, maybe if we were in a better place overall place roster wise.
     
  5. Brasfin

    Brasfin Well-Known Member

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    If Watkins is the potential future Hall of Famer everyone is making him out to be, then yes, it is worth it.
     
  6. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If you can get a cheap deal like you got last year to move up to #3, why not?
     
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  7. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    that is so true, something that is not talked about enough, stole that slot from the raiders..

    It's really not giving up a 2nd round pick, because we moved up all the way to #3.. It offsets itself..giving up a true 2nd round pick would be if you had to stay at #12.

    Sheldon or Eifert would of been fine picks though.
     
  8. Alex13

    Alex13 Tua Time !!! Club Member

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    i rather trade down and get some extra picks, if possible
     
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  9. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Depending on how much it would cost, I think Watkins and Clowney are worth trade multiple picks for, those are probably the only players Id do that for though.
     
  10. scotty_irnbru

    scotty_irnbru Well-Known Member

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    I watch Watkins highlights (I know, highlights, it's what they are meant to do) and he just catches everything. I'm not saying we give up the farm but he's got to be worth a serious consideration. Trade next years first and this years third. Hope Morgan Moses or David Yankey are there in the second.
     
  11. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    While I don't fault you for wanting to get Watkins, I think it would be great, I think that if we traded out of our spot it would likely be to trade down, not up. This is a deep draft class, we have several needs. I think they'd be planning to acquire more picks, not trade them away.
     
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  12. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    I doubt we trade up in the first round again this year, new GM replacing the old GM who was fired after he traded up the year before. That trade didn't exactly work out (yet).
     
  13. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That is the worst reason not to trade up
     
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  14. texanphinatic

    texanphinatic Senior Member

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    Needs to be a good deal. Atlanta did that a few years back for Jones, and while he has been great (injury aside), losing all those picks has hamstrung the falcons ability to field quality OL and D.
     
  15. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would trade up a few spots for Donald.
     
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  16. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I would love to get Donald. Love.
     
  17. BevoPhin

    BevoPhin Well-Known Member

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    No way we can move up high enough at the steal we did last year because of the talent this year. The cost would be closer to what shanahan gave fisher, IMO. But id still call the raiders. Maybe throw Vernon in the package.
     
  18. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

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    This is a lame duck regime so I dont think they will care very much about trading future picks in order to move up in the draft .If it does happen I hope its for an offensive explosive player like Watkins and not some OL.

    Alternatively we wouldnt have to give up much to move up a couple of spots to draft Brandin Cook who is another explosive offensive player who can make a difference.:yes:
     
  19. Jindred

    Jindred New Member

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    I wouldn't trade up in this draft at all. The draft is deep and yes there are a few top players who would be nice to have, however what the Dolphins need most at this point is O-line and depth. We trade up we lose pick and then we aren't able to bring in as much depth, you look at the teams who win consistently and they have good depth. The Dolphins right now are severely lacking in anything past our starters. If our starters go down its a pretty big drop off in talent level at the majority of positions. The only back up I am comfortable with at this point is Matt Moore.

    The other thing about trading up is there will be players at 19 who would fill needs on our team nicely. As has been Mention Cooks, Lee and Benjamin will all very likely be there, Eric Ebron could easily fall to us. Lewan's stock is falling right now due to some of his legal issues, and Zack Martin is still a good prospect for our team whether at RT or G he fills a large need and he could very well be at that position.

    Only players I would trade up for right now, would be one of the top two tackles in Mathews and Robinson. Kalil Mack to take over at Wheelers spot and Sammy Watkins as the dude is a monster. All those guys will be gone in the top 10 and will cost a lot to move up for so it really isn't THAT worth it in my eyes. Mike Evans won't make it past Detroit, and I strongly doubt he makes it past Tampa so we would likely have to trade up into the top 10 to get him as well.
     
  20. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    If CKParrotHead is correct and Evans is a better prospect than AJ Green, he is worth trading up for
     
  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Are you sure he said that?

    I would disagree.
     
  22. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    he said that Mike Evans is the best prospect since Calvin Johnson.
     
  23. scotty_irnbru

    scotty_irnbru Well-Known Member

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    Daniel Jeremiah stated on a podcast today that Odell Beckham was his player of the draft. I'm coming round to the idea that I know the square root of eff all. Is he the superhero WR we need?
     
  24. 77FinFan

    77FinFan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I love him; big, strong and attitude to spare.
     
  25. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    If you like Keenan Allen, you should doubly like Evans.
     
  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    You're misquoting me a bit. This is what I said.

     
  27. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I'm not sure I really mind the idea of trading up to #8 overall for Jake Matthews to be honest.

    But I start to have a little bit of a problem with it when I see guys like Aaron Donald and/or Mike Evans passed on in favor of Jake Matthews...
     
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  28. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Then I misunderstood. Sorry about that.

    Even if he is as good as Green he is worth trading up
     
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  29. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    Whether it was a steal or not will be based on how Jordan develops. If he doesn't turn into a dominant player for the Dolphins on defense over the next few years. We would have been better off staying where we were in round one last year and keeping the 2nd round pick.

    I haven't given up on Jordan because he just might become another Jason Taylor. Right now though, we really don't know who got the better part of the trade with the Raiders. Only time will tell.
     
  30. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think Jake can make the case for best player in the draft, I mean when your good enough to neutralize the best defender in the draft it means something.
     
  31. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Problem is I really don't know anything about his character other than what I see on the field and there's some bad body language on the field. Could be a train wreck for all I know.

    What I know is that PHYSICALLY from a pure physically compelling and football skills standpoint, the upside for him is as high as I've seen on any wide receiver since Calvin Johnson. Calvin Johnson was not only the most perfect wide receiver I'd ever seen coming out, but probably the most perfect draft prospect I'd ever seen period. Maybe Andrew Luck took that title a few years later. So no wide receiver is likely to compare to Calvin in my eyes.

    But short of that I can't think of a more physically compelling receiver that I've seen than Evans. He's pretty unbelievable. To some degree you're pretty sure he'll make an impact even if his head IS a train wreck.
     
  32. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Is he though? I understand Manziel brought a lot of this on himself but Matthews did allow 6 sacks and 21 pressures this season. Physically speaking there's nothing uber-compelling about Matthews. I think you're kind of tricking yourself into a purely philosophy-based accolade.

    Do you look at Jake Matthews on a football field and watch him play ball and come away more floored with his talent than you do with any other player in the draft?
     
  33. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I would put Calvin Johnson ahead of Andrew Luck. I couldn't imagine a world where Calvin Johnson didn't become an amazing wide receiver. I could imagine Luck turning into not an amazing quarterback.
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I watch Mike Evans on tape and come away thinking that physically he can re-enact a prison shower scene on about 90% of any corners he might face in the NFL.

    But mentally, this is a problem:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTOSJxctBIE&feature=player_detailpage#t=223

    That should be a relatively simple sight adjustment if I'm reading the play right. Evans should be saying to himself, "If he's even I'm leavin, if he's goin I'm stayin". That's what Manziel is expecting there. Instead Evans just pushes vertically up the field. Do they have pre-snap communications on those options and did Evans just miss the hand signal? Or is he trusted to make the adjustment and just had a total mental breakdown on the play? The ball should've been intercepted and that's on Evans unless their system requires a pre-snap hand signal and Manziel skipped it.

    What's Evans' mentality like? Can he be coached into making those adjustments better?

    I hope so because physically he shows the skills to make Pro Bowl players look bad at football.
     
  35. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I saw most of those sacks transpire and your right, Manziel gave Matthews those numbers, this is no Jon Martin living off Of Andrew lucks elusiveness and intelligence.

    If I had to put money down on the matchup between clowney and Matthews, over a whole game, I would take Matthews, he's better than fisher, better than Joeckel, better than Jake long coming out, and while he is so sound and almost perfect in his technique and understanding of a blocking scheme, were dealing with a 310 lb athlete that can run a 4.9, so if you can give me one guy to neutralize the best defender in the draft on game day,than I think that player is most important to winning..

    Now I can understand if someone falls for clowney, and they want Manzeil, but Jake Matthews should go no later than third, and if I was in the same division as the team that took clowney I would do everything possible to get Matthews.
     
  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Mike Evans seems like a punk to me, I couldn't go up to get a punk, and based on skillset and potential alone, I think he falls short of Sammy..

    If you had your choice would you take Evans over Sammy ?
     
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Disagree here, not sure where to start, give me luck every day..took over the worst team in the league and followed it up with two playoff births and one playoff win..and he's gonna keep coming, every play is his last..the dude is relentless.
     
  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I notice some people trying to put Odell Beckham above Mike Evans. This is funny to me.

    When Mike Evans faced Auburn he had a ridiculous outing. We're talking 11 catches for 287 yards and 4 TDs. In one game.

    He had to face Auburn's best corner Chris Davis for most of the day and he did some good work against him. When he got to face Jonathon Mincy, he destroyed and demoralized him without fail. He salted the earth over Mincy's corpse. He also did some nice damage on CB Ryan White, jumping over his would-be tackle for a touchdown.

    [video=youtube;IohXY1W3ZvY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IohXY1W3ZvY[/video]

    But when Odell Beckham played against Auburn, he did so against a secondary missing their best player Chris Davis...yet Beckham struggled anyway. He was blanketed and physically dominated by both Ryan White AND Jonathon Mincy (the same guy who was turned into a loose sock by Mike Evans).

    Here's what I'm talking about with Beckham against Auburn:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPF871mz8h0&feature=player_embedded#t=0
    Mincy knocked a deep ball right out of Beckham's hands as he was trying to secure it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPF871mz8h0&feature=player_detailpage#t=122
    On an underneath catch, Beckham couldn't break Mincy's tackle and go zero yards after catch even though he had plenty of space to work with.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPF871mz8h0&feature=player_detailpage#t=134
    On a slant pattern White had Beckham physically dominated.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPF871mz8h0&feature=player_detailpage#t=184
    Mincy was generally able to keep up with Beckham deep.

    Ryan White physically manhandled Beckham at the line and this kept Beckham from running a route that could create separation.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPF871mz8h0&feature=player_detailpage#t=196 & Replay http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPF871mz8h0&feature=player_detailpage#t=206

    More of Mincy easily keeping up with Beckham on vertical patterns.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPF871mz8h0&feature=player_detailpage#t=236

    Beckham catches a ball underneath White's off coverage but again, no RAC.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPF871mz8h0&feature=player_detailpage#t=252

    Ryan White jams up Beckham and easily stays with him down the field but a phantom DPI call bails Beckham out.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPF871mz8h0&feature=player_detailpage#t=337

    Ryan White gets his revenge a few downs later defending Beckham one-on-one in the end zone.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPF871mz8h0&feature=player_detailpage#t=354

    Jonathon Mincy takes his turn blanketing Beckham easily in the end zone.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPF871mz8h0&feature=player_detailpage#t=377

    Odell Beckham finally starts punching back, catching underneath Mincy's deep off coverage then making him eat dirt for some YAC.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPF871mz8h0&feature=player_detailpage#t=389

    Not against Mincy or White but a nice diving catch over the middle for Beckham.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPF871mz8h0&feature=player_detailpage#t=412

    But then when he has to face White again, Beckham is physically dominated on this screen play.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPF871mz8h0&feature=player_detailpage#t=428

    Beckham now starting to show some frustration with White's coverage, committing offensive pass interference. Was a clean play for Beckham until he stretched that arm out like that, didn't need to do it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPF871mz8h0&feature=player_detailpage#t=470

    Overall I don't know how anyone could take Beckham over Mike Evans unless you're convinced Evans just won't even show up to work, or won't stay out of prison, or both.
     
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  39. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Absent further knowledge of Evans' character (which could go either way) I would have to go with Watkins but Watkins is a superb receiver prospect in his own right and Evans taking a backseat to him isn't really relevant to discussions about Evans versus players at other positions, or Evans versus the rest of the receivers not named Sammy Watkins.
     
  40. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Luck's team was a playoff team with a good quarterback.

    Luck has been fine. Probably going to be a great player. However, I see more flaws in him than the near perfect Calvin Johnson. Which isn't an insult
     

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