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Tua 2nd most effective deep passer in 2022

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by FinFaninBuffalo, Jun 2, 2023.

  1. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    So you think Matt Ryan had great arm strength in 2021?

    What you are saying doesn't make much sense. Brees and Tua aren't similar athletically or mentally. Listen to Sean Payton interview describe Brees physically. Brees has accomplished much and Tua has not. Why would he be kept out of HOF for things he's already accomplished? Brees scenario is extremely unlikely just based on odds. It's always funny with Tua guys compare him to Brees, and not the other 99 QBs that were undersized and undertooled that became nothing. Brees is the 1% type of rare.

    I answered above what it would take for me to change my opinion of Tua.
     
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  2. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    W.....T......F?????????

    Brees and Tua are very similar throwing the ball. Payton raved about Brees being a great athlete while completely ignoring paltry career rushing totals. I chalk it up to a coach not wanting his guy to be compared to. That's fine.

    His opinion, and yours would hold more water IF Tua hadn't just led the league passer rating and almost every other category. You really need to step back from the ledge.......

    Given what you've emotionally invested and the twisted arguments you've tried to make, forgive me for not believing you. Tua must prove it to you that he is a good QB, well, you must prove to me you are not a troll.
     
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  3. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    What could possibly be so confusing for you?

    You said: "the anti-Tua crowd has harped on arm strength so much as a fatal flaw that you'd now need to admit that 20+ air yard throws are infrequent or that Tua succeeded at them last season."

    Matt Ryan in 2021, was 2nd in this category of effective deep passer. Unless you don't think there were lots of concern about Matt Ryan's arm strength in 2021, then having concern with Tua's arm strength in 2022 is still very valid. Being good at deep passing doesn't require arm strength. Matt Ryan proved that in 2021 according to YOUR stat.

    I gave you a concrete answer of what I'm looking to see, and you are calling me a troll. One of us is emotionally invested here, but it's not me.
     
  4. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    20+ air yard throws include those that are shorter and to the boundary, not just throws 20+ yards down the middle.

    So, not having elite arm strength is not a fatal flaw, since Tua was good at throws all over the field. Thank you. And to pretend that the anti-Tua crowd wasn't predicting that Tua did not have the arm strength to throw deep is just BS. Maybe it wasn't you but it sure was others. It was a main talking point for 2 years.

    I readily acknowledge that there are throws that Tua shouldn't be making. He can't throw off platform like Mahomes, Rodgers, and Allen. He cannot throw late to the boundaries. He needs to make sure his mechanics and feet are right. I'm fine with all that.

    I would trade Tua for Mahomes and a prime version of Rodgers in a heart beat. Once you get outside of those two guys, the number of guys with elite arm strength AND Tua's anticipation and accuracy gets very very very scarce. Sorry, it is not Josh Allen or Justin Herbert. They have the arm strength but none of the rest of it. Not Lamar, not the sexual predator.

    Burrow doesn't have elite arm strength but it is better than Tua's. Despite Burrow's arguably better physical skills and equal supporting cast, Tua had a better passer rating, YPA, TD%, etc. etc. etc. You've just going to have to come to grips with that.

    Herbert was nowhere close last season. There is no way you could convince me that if Tua has a 93 passer rating, you won't be calling for his head, yet...... Herbert is just fine. As of right now, Tua is the better QB.

    I noticed you take Sean Payton's statements about Brees as gospel but dismiss McDaniel's claim that they are "sitting on a gold mine" with Tua.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2023
  5. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    seriously why do you continue to debate these three posters ?

    you're not gonna prove anything to them because they don't care.
     
  6. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Tua has a below average arm as a starting quarterback in the NFL.
     
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  7. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    what is your point?
     
  8. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Good luck getting an answer.
     
  9. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I’m going to see if I can’t throw some water in this fire that keeps getting stoked…

    Stats are just a measuring stick. I used fight and argue with Brad all of the time regarding Tannehill when it came to stats…how I felt he was a much better quarterback than stats indicated. So when it comes to Tua and his stats, again, just a measuring stick.

    When you look at Tua STATISTICALLY, any reasonable and prudent person cannot argue against his production. You can’t! That be like standing outside during a bright sunny and complaining that you’re getting rained on. But the only stat that truly matters at the end of a game is the scoreboard…and it’s no secret our defense was an Achilles heel last season.

    Had the defense played to the level they were expected to play, we wouldn’t have let the Jets put up 40 points against us…we wouldn’t have let the 49ers beat us, seeing how our head coach was the OC the year prior and Boyer should have had that defense prepped against every play of theirs…we wouldn’t have lost the Patriots with *cough* Mac Jones under center.

    The offense had their issues last season, particularly with Tua being out but offense was less of a problem than our non-existent defense.
     
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  10. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    is he another troll?,cause I'm starting my list
     
  11. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    I think this is more like a flammable liquid fire, you know the kind where water is useless for putting it out? The argument by anti-Tua posters is very fluid, pardon the pun. Move the goalposts after a goal is made and then claim the goalposts weren't actually moved!

    Their entire argument comes down to Tua's statistical production being a fluke. That's where the Foles comparison is made, where the cherry picking of the late season collapse is seen as most indicative of future performance, where the claim is made Tua's statistical production is actually NOT due to Tua (i.e., credit others for the stats instead of Tua). Yes they're actually arguing against Tua's statistical production.

    The best way to put out a flammable liquid fire is to cut off the oxygen, i.e., Tua continuing to perform well. He does that and naysayers will fall silent (we saw that last season with a bunch of them). Just have to put up with the nonsense until that happens.
     
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  12. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    In my experience, some posters are here for the arguments, not the discussion. If somebody posts something that's over the top and obviously ignorant of common sense, you're not going to sway him with logic or statistics. He posted it in the hopes that he could stir up dust.

    Ignore things that run contrary to logic or critical thinking. We have some of the smartest fans frequenting this forum, so if you think they can't be serious about something they posted, you're right.

    It's like the old saying: Never wrestle with a pig because if you do, you'll both get dirty. Besides, the pig enjoys it.
     
  13. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Or, never argue with an idiot. They''l bring you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
     
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  14. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Here is the thing that people who argue against Tua's production last season don't want to acknowledge. The QB's supporting cast usually can only have a negative effect on the QB. They rarely artificially boost the QB's performance. They simply enable the QB to perform at their best level. So, the idea that any QB can do what QB 'X' did if they were in the same situation is bunk.

    This is especially true of the receivers. If there is any unusual situation, it would be shown in the metrics. For example, the anti-Tua crowd tried to make two claims about Tua's league leading YPA (1) The passing yards were all YAC (2) the receivers were wide open. Unfortunately for them, those things are measured by independent statistics and are verifiable. The Dolphins were not a high YAC team and the receivers were not high in average yards of separation. In addition, Tua was at the top of the league at average intended air yards. So, the YPA was, in fact, due mostly to Tua. His, admittedly great, WRs did not contribute an unusual amount to YPA.

    Someone can still make the case that other QBs were held back by their supporting cast. That is fine. But, they cannot take credit away from Tua.
     
  15. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Yes, he shows up every once in a while and posts a quote with no sources from obscure podcasts slighting Tua or McDaniel or posts a Bill Parcels quote.
     
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  16. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    And if that doesn't work, they'll get the post locked with your help.
     
  17. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    This is all true. And they don't want to consider how much the acquisition of Stefon Diggs impacted Josh Allen's development. Or that having Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, and Austin Ekeler did a heckuva lot to give an advantage to Justin Herbert. All three are good, but the supporting cast has to not only be talented, but compatible with the QB's strengths and skill sets. I'd submit that no QB ever succeeded in a system that didn't put him in a good situation. "Yeah, but..." isn't the counter-argument that they think it is; it's an acknowledgment of the point they're trying to debate.
     
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  18. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  19. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Show this man some love:
     
  20. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    He looks good, but for folks that want him to run more. That ain't happening.
     
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  21. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    If anyone wants their quarterback to run more, that team’s offense sucks.

    The absolute LAST thing you want your quarterback to do is run. He should hand the ball off left, hand the ball off right, drop back in the pocket and throw the ball.

    If an offense is doing it’s job, there’s no reason for the quarterback to shower after a game or to have his uniform washed.
     
  22. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Especially one that gets injured a lot, and not actually good at gaining yards when he's running. But that's what some have argued here.
     
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  23. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    He's absolutely going to run more and is training for exactly that. Way too many easy yards left on the field last season and it will only make his job easier to keep defenses honest. Tua's injury problems stem from holding the ball too long behind the line of scrimmage and not seeing what's coming. Running forward he can control that and has throughout his career.
     
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  24. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    You don't put on 15lbs and run better.
     
  25. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is advocating for him to be Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen and be reckless and take hits 8-15 times a game.
     
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  26. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is asking him to run "better" or faster or whatever you want to say. We want him to run more effectively in timely situations.
     
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  27. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    If he runs more, he gets into tackling situations more. Tackling leads to injuries. It's really that simple.
     
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  28. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Not when you can see what's in front of you and have the slide at your disposal, which I'm pretty sure has been an emphasis in his training this off-season.
     
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  29. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    He was supposed to slide the 1st game out of concussion protocol and didn't. You put competitive people into competitive situations, they are going to do the competitive thing, not the smarter safe thing.
     
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  30. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but running forward and preparing for a hit is much different than getting slammed from behind in the pocket or scrambling behind the line of scrimmage with your eyes down the field. I'm not saying I necessarily want him to lower his shoulder into defenders anymore which he has done in the past but it's not as much as a risk as you think.

    I want him to take the 5-8 yards and slide when the opportunity presents itself, which it did many times last year and wasn't taken advantage of.

    Let's see what a whole off-season of this emphasized training can do.
     
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  31. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    I don't think offseason training is going to make him less competitive. He could also get chased down from behind as well. The play isn't always going to be in front of him. I don't see him running more. His yards per run weren't good as is, add 10-15 lbs. I don't see how that improves.
     
  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I won’t be seeing him anymore and he won’t be seeing me anymore :)
     
  33. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This dude gets it :)
     
  34. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Seriously, if he finishes the season with ~100 yards on the ground, I'm not complaining. He's my QB, but I can easily imagine him being hurt while executing a slide with no contact. And that would be the most Miami Dolphins thing ever.
     
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  35. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    This is the hitman8, loser, woe is me, I'm never gonna win mentality that the Dolphins and Dolphins fans have to break free from.
     
  36. Irishman

    Irishman Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't that be a "kick"?
    You throw with your arm, not your foot. - LOL
     
  37. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I have no problem with Tua (or any quarterback for that matter) running up an uncovered middle to pick up a first down. Scramble that 5/6/7 yards, slide and call it a play.

    What I don’t like and feel is extremely foolish in the NFL is the “running quarterback”. Watson, Hurts, Jackson etc…those types of quarterbacks and their style of play is reckless and often lead to injuries and shorter NFL careers.

    Take Jackson for example. How many games has he missed the last two seasons and potentially affected the Ravens chances in the playoffs?

    Thus is why I say a quarterback shouldn’t have to run and if he does have to…if it’s a potential weapon in your arsenal, your offense sucks!
     
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  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We don’t agree here but I’m one who called for this particular part of his game to improve and train for and it looks they did exactly that so I’m excited
     
  39. Wilkimania

    Wilkimania Well-Known Member

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    It'll be interesting to see how things change this year with Tua being in his 2nd year of the same system. I wonder how weird that is for some of our players after the upheaval of recent years to actually get some consistency in playbooks.

    Hopefully the defence will get to feel that next year.
     
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  40. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    .....but I thought pocket presence was one of his "elite" traits?
     

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