1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Tua 2nd most effective deep passer in 2022

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by FinFaninBuffalo, Jun 2, 2023.

  1. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

    3,953
    3,980
    113
    Jul 8, 2020
    Or they could have stayed as high. Who knows? I could argue that his performance after returning was diminished because of his injury and that consequently, he probably would have played at an elevated level had he not missed time. But I don't know that, so I'll avoid that hypothetical debate because it's pointless.

    But I wasn't arguing that his stats would have been better (I don't think...). I'm suggesting that we can fairly extrapolate his stats over 17 games based on how he played in 13.

    Stats are meaningless sans context. The context of Tua's stats last season has to consider we finished the season with a winning record, in spite of absolutely putrid performance from his backups while he was out. By any reasonable standard, he had a good season. In light of that, all of the Yeah, buts... come across as either being agenda-driven or arguments for the sake of argument.

    Tua has a lot to prove; we all know it. He could finish his career with one good year. But it riles some of his supporters when he pulls up with a school bus full of kids that he saved from a flood and some folks mumble about how noisy the bus was or snark about the fact that he parked slightly over the line.
     
    resnor likes this.
  2. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

    3,953
    3,980
    113
    Jul 8, 2020
    His reply is exactly why arguing in this thread or the now-locked one is pointless. Nobody is going to convince anybody else that they're wrong. The best we can hope for is that Tua will make them all look silly by continuing to play well while they look silly and suggest that we don't see what we see.

    In the meantime, we can maintain civil discourse while agreeing to disagree. Especially when somebody makes over-the-top negative posts for sake of stirring the pot. Don't engage trolls.
     
    djphinfan likes this.
  3. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

    1,663
    1,766
    113
    Jan 16, 2022
    Correct. No one cares about leading categories in incomplete seasons. Rings aren't given out and flags don't fly because of hollow stats.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2023
    hitman8, Sceeto and resnor like this.
  4. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,458
    9,994
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    I don't disagree with most of this. I just think that this topic has been polarized, there may be some actual trolls on both sides, but for myself, I'm just not convinced. Hopefully this season he shows he can stay healthy. If he can stay healthy, then perhaps the other stuff improves also.

    I'm just got going to crown him yet.
     
    Sceeto and OwesOwn614 like this.
  5. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

    3,953
    3,980
    113
    Jul 8, 2020
    I haven't crowned him. Not at all. I'm just happy I see a reason to be optimistic about the QB position after 20+ years of grossly unsatisfactory play. I see the good things Tua does, but I see his opportunities as well. I used to post things that were both favorable and critical of him because I recognize (a)he's not perfect, and (b)the opinions of others are no less valid than mine own.

    Tua takes a lot of crap. Why is it that when we discuss Hill or Waddle (for example), stats are fine. And we talk about their catches and routes but very seldom has anyone ripped into them for their drops and they've had a few. I could start a post that highlighted their 3,200 yards and 15 touchdowns with no pushback. If stats don't paint an accurate picture of a quarterback, shouldn't we also cast aspersions on the irrelevance of superlative stats at other positions?
     
    FinFaninBuffalo and resnor like this.
  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    112,632
    68,917
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    To this I will say that it takes more talent to distribute to more talented skill players than not
     
  7. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,458
    9,994
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Please explain that.

    I haven't found that to be true in sports in high school and junior high.
     
    Sceeto likes this.
  8. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    112,632
    68,917
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    imo, when you have hi level talent skill players, above the norm that is, it will require the distributor to be able to measure that gap of talent differently, therefore a higher level of skill to exploit the strengths.

    Point of destination is quicker, faster processing, measuring speed, breaks, cuts, leading thru accuracy, and the most difficult part is the anticipation of the more talented player and where there are going to be in route.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2023
    Puka-head and resnor like this.
  9. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

    3,953
    3,980
    113
    Jul 8, 2020
    LFG.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,489
    2,976
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    And not getting a ring doesn’t mean you didn’t have a good season, or did 31 QBs have bad seasons?
     
  11. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,489
    2,976
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    Well it is IMPOSSIBLE to get less VOLUME with more games. That was a VOLUME stat.
     
  12. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,489
    2,976
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    This is where many of us disagree with you. He has plenty of innate traits that raise the level of play of his teammates. A more accurate ball is easier to catch. A ball delivered on time is easier to make a play on. Seeing the whole field and getting the ball to the right receiver makes them better. He has elite release and feet quickness giving his receivers more time. According to Tyreek he throws one of the most catchable balls.
     
  13. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

    1,663
    1,766
    113
    Jan 16, 2022
    Correct, not playing in or winning a playoff game means you didn't have a good season.

    Unfortunately for us the way some of you talk about Tua's stats, you'd think it was a ring.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2023
    Sceeto likes this.
  14. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

    3,953
    3,980
    113
    Jul 8, 2020
    So, Dan Marino was pretty much a stiff for most of his career. He either failed to qualify for the playoffs or lost in the first game 10 of his 17 seasons.
    [​IMG]
     
  15. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

    5,907
    4,762
    113
    Jan 15, 2008
    Except for the many times you stated Deshaun Watson had an elite season when the Texans went 4-12 that one year.
     
  16. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

    5,907
    4,762
    113
    Jan 15, 2008
    You also have mocked Geno Smith relentlessly the past couple of months even though he put up great numbers and made the playoffs. Did he have a good season or how does it work?
     
  17. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,489
    2,976
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but it is just an opinion.

    The sad thing is that other QBs are not held to the same standard. Justin Herbert is idolized by some on this board......
     
  18. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,489
    2,976
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    different standards based on the narrative being pushed.
     
  19. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

    5,907
    4,762
    113
    Jan 15, 2008
    "Stats = rings" only when it's Tua being discussed.
     
  20. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

    1,663
    1,766
    113
    Jan 16, 2022
    Where did I mock Geno Smith relentlessly? You make things up so often it's comical.
     
  21. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    9,336
    10,209
    113
    Dec 9, 2012
    Literally the first time I've used the ignore function in all 10 of my years on this board.
     
    djphinfan likes this.
  22. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

    5,907
    4,762
    113
    Jan 15, 2008
     
  23. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,458
    9,994
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Yeah, I think you've been really pretty reasonable in your stance on Tua. I know you're definitely more convinced on him than I am.

    Again, just to reiterate, my position has remained the same since at least the inception of this site, statistics are only part of evaluating a player. Gaudy stats are awesome...but they don't tell the entire story, just as a box score doesn't tell the story of the game, necessarily.

    So, regarding Tua, I was highly encouraged by his phenomenal play. This is why my only real concern is Tua's health.

    As to the receivers, I haven't seen a whole lot of posts or new threads discussing their performance.
     
    OwesOwn614 likes this.
  24. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,458
    9,994
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    I would agree with this...but I would also argue that better, faster players means that they can beat their defenders more easily, run plays better, creating better opportunities for the QB. It's a symbiotic relationship, which I've been arguing for years, go dredge up Tannehill stuff from years ago.

    My bottom line stance is that better players around you do not make the game more difficult, they make it easier. I would never expect a QB, even elite ones, to have equal or better stats throwing to average receivers than to top flight receivers.

    I don't believe that can be argued.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2023
    Sceeto likes this.
  25. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,458
    9,994
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    That's not the argument and you know it.
     
  26. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,458
    9,994
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    I know, these are what you've been saying for years. I'll agree with his anticipation and release. However, what concerns me is how the offense went from disappointing to begin the season to a 4-5 game stretch of elite, then fell back to struggling in the same season. Tua struggled in games, and made throws that made me want to throw things through my tv. Making throws that I felt were ill-advised, throws that we don't expect 2nd/3rd year players to be throwing.

    I think Tua has potential and tools, but I want to see:

    1. Stay healthy
    2. More consistency

    But number 2 is not a huge concern right now for me.

    I would also agree that some of the struggle could have been due to other things, but that's why I'm still not as high on Tua as others, because I think there's still this that we need to figure out.
     
  27. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

    1,663
    1,766
    113
    Jan 16, 2022
    That's mocking Geno Smith relentlessly to you? That's a looooow bar.
     
  28. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

    3,953
    3,980
    113
    Jul 8, 2020
    I'm a very cynical man. My first impulse upon encountering differing opinions is that the person with whom I'm conversing is either being obstinate or trying to stir up dust to waste time. There are several posters who are ridiculously dug into the "Tua can't/will never be a decent pro QB" camp and I'll admit I thought you were one of them. But when he made his surprisingly strong start last season, you gave him props and I saw that you were actually a lot more balanced than I had been.

    That's why I haven't been arguing with you since then. In fact, I've stopped arguing with most on this forum because I'm not changing anybody's mind. This place would be awfully boring if we all had the same opinions and personally, I can dig the opinions of people who believe (like I do) that a GM's first job every day should be to figure out how to improve the team. And that includes QB.

    If there's a better one than Tua for the Dolphins, I want him. I'm a Dolphins fan, so I root for #1. Put him in another uniform and, to put it simply, I'm not rooting for him. The only way you and I are different is that I see reasons for optimism and you have tempered expectations. Nothing wrong with that.

    With that being said, we have other posters here who I'm convinced would prefer winning without Tua being the reason. You're not one, I'm not one, and people with that mindset are not fans, IMO. One thing we should all hope for is that he be not just a great QB, but the guy to lead us to ultimate glory. And we should all be able to comport ourselves with dignity and respect while waiting for it.
     
    vmarcilfan75 and resnor like this.
  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    112,632
    68,917
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    of course that cant be argued, however you put a shi##y qb with hi level skill players and I'll show you a decrease in production.
     
    resnor likes this.
  30. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,458
    9,994
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire

    Yes yes yes

    I agree with all of this.
     
    OwesOwn614 likes this.
  31. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,458
    9,994
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    Sure, but t I'm not arguing that Tua is "sh!tty." I would expect the receivers numbers to go down with a sh!!!y QB...but I would expect the shi!!y QBs numbers to improve with better receivers.

    Tom Brady putting up good stats with Green, Gaffney, Brown...but blowing up with Randy Moss. Yeah, his stats with lesser receivers were worse than with Moss, but he still elevated receivers play (although it also could be mostly related to the cheating).
     
    StaleTacos likes this.
  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    112,632
    68,917
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    lets not get ahead of ourselves, were talking about a specific topic.

    you have to have context and relative comparisons.

    Brady was in same system for a decade..all that experience personally and thru scheme matters.

    The evolution of a qb is important to have context. I believe you lose sight of those things often.
     
  33. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,458
    9,994
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    He wasn't at that point. He took over on his second year. SECOND YEAR. He played with largely second tier players those early years. Freaking Troy Brown was playing at receiver wasn't he?

    I'm not getting ahead of anything. Brady was a great example of an elite QB, who early in his career, did very well with other people's castoffs. I'd argue he was more effective than Tua.

    Anyway, the point being, I haven't seen Tua be very successful without elite receivers. Not in college, and not in the NFL. That does concern me. Now, I'm NOT saying that Tua can't be successful with lesser talent and him. I would agree those first couple seasons were terrible for Tua, and he had many obstacles. So I'm very much looking forward to him showing that he doesn't have to have two or three of the best, fastest receivers in the NFL to see success.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    112,632
    68,917
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    This would be much easier if you just stop saying all your concerned with is his health

    You question everything about this player let’s be honest.

    Anyways, I vow not to discuss Tuas game with anyone who doubts the player at this point..

    And I only say that because everything and every angle has been discussed so I give up on that front. They’re nothing left to discuss until he starts playing again.

    I’ll talk about what he has overcome and his strengths though and how excited I am about this team under his direction
     
  35. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

    5,907
    4,762
    113
    Jan 15, 2008
    Three posts within one page sarcastically praising and mocking Smith's accomplishments just because they were in line with Tua at the top of the league? Yeah, I'd say you were trying to hammer down a point pretty hard.
     
  36. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

    16,458
    9,994
    113
    Nov 25, 2007
    New Hampshire
    So, to summarize, in your view, Tua is complete, has reached his ceiling, and has no flaws.

    I guess I don't understand only discussing the things he's good at. My concern about him needing elite receivers to shine goes back to predraft. I haven't seen anything to alleviate that concern. Every QB has a flaw, something you're concerned about in certain situations. I don't understand the reticence to talk about these things.
     
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    112,632
    68,917
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    If you haven't seen anything that alleviates your concerns after what he did in college and last year, and his evolvement in his third year, then trying to convince you will result in circles, if the things he has shown to do at an elite level don’t excite you then like I said I’m done trying to point them out

    Everyone has given their best analysis in a lot of different threads, great analysis imo

    And please res, stop saying your only concern is health..we can all see that’s not true

    Absolutely nothing wrong with you continuing to harp on the weaknesses you perceive, just don’t expect dialogue if you can’t also talk about the strengths

    When you don’t believe in the player the weaknesses consume you and that’s obvious

    All good though nothing left to go back and forth ya know.. only a month before camp starts

    Strange that I don’t see you or any of the trolls talk about this incredibly talent laden defense under the guidance of a living legend..
     
  38. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,489
    2,976
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    Except the guy who made the argument responded in this way to my post:

     
  39. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,489
    2,976
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    We can just agree to disagree. Tua started the season playing well, then went completely off the charts. Then had 2 bad games. Then finished the season playing well.

    EVERY SINGLE QB THAT HAS EVER PLAYED THE GAME HAS BAD THROWS AND BAD GAMES. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.
     
  40. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

    2,489
    2,976
    113
    Dec 13, 2007
    Brady was a very average QB early in his career.
     

Share This Page