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Tua...''He's the greatest prospect ever''

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Sep 27, 2023.

  1. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Logic is a subjective construct. Attempting to bring subjectivity into an objective discussion is silly and a diversion. Bringing the Tua is better than Mahomes straw man into the conversation is just another way to argue when there's no reason for it. I'm not debating with you because we won't find anything we agree on. But if I say Tua has top 5 numbers and you jump to me saying he's better than the last man standing, everybody (but you) can see how you're disingenuous and trying to keep the pot stirred.

    God bless you, friend. Stay on the grind.
     
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  2. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    You are using some "objective data" to show Tua is top 5. I'm using the same "objective data" to illustrate things are more complex. You do you.
     
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  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don’t think next year if he balled he’d get that much more than if we sign him to his lucrative deal this year, so not worried about that too much..

    He would be a free agent if you allow him to play the fifth.

    So the relative difference on the fifth year cap hit to the first year lucrative contract hit is not that substantial.

    I would lean that way if he’s asking for the moon, him and his team should have the Brady mentality, if they don’t then I draw my number in the sand based on where I think he is right now and what I’ve seen as far as performance and commitment.
     
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  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Just a reminder here, don’t want to rain on anyone’s parade but I believe we have a very serious issue that’s being glossed over.

    I also wouldn’t be as concerned as I am if it wasn’t one of my concerns that I wrote about when he was coming into the NFL

    We have some habitual behavior going in here, that’s Nick saban below expressing serious concern

    https://sports.yahoo.com/after-chal...tua-tagovailoa-drops-15-pounds-210712896.html

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  5. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    So you’re saying he’s fat. Because we haven’t seen that take from you. :smile:
     
  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sorry, just pisses me off on many levels for a 25 year old Pro Qb for my favorite team
     
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  7. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    I think conversations like these are exactly how some fan bases become victims of their own success. Let me offer everyone something to think about:

    Ryan Tannehill was not a bust. More or less, he has been an 11 year starter, and I would not be surprised if he found himself starting again next year. Realistically, if you draft a QB in the first round, they most likely will not have a career as good as Ryan Tannehill. Sam Darnold, Josh Rosen, Mitch Trubisky, Mac Jones, Tre Lance - all were drafted with plenty of fanfare. You might not even get Daniel Jones if you go back to the well. Caleb Williams is special but entirely out of reach. So what are you left with? Daniels, Maye, Penix, and Nix. If you asked me, do you think any of those guys will be better than Tua, I would say probably not. Even if you said yes, do you think you could name which guy specifically would be better?

    "He's not Patrick Mahomes." You are right. He's not. Players like that do not come around every day, and think you are gonna land him is like thinking you are gonna win the lottery.

    "We might have to pay him Joe Burrow money, and he is not worth $50M per season. He has holes in his game." You're right, and he is not. But where are you going with that point. The market is what it is. A lot of people here feel much more comfortable with at $40M per season some even as low as $35. Do you really think that $10-15M over market value for one player is gonna cripple the team. As the 2024 season is going to begin, we have $10M in dead money. The season is not over. Hope is not lost. I have long said that you can have one or two contracts in which you are overpaying a guy. Do you really wanna argue that who led the league in passing yardage and was in the top 5~ in most statistical ratings simply cannot win it all? No chance. Are you really claiming that Tua is fool's gold surrounded by talent? Teams have tried this before, and it never works out like this offense has performed this year.

    "We should just..." These typically devolve into broad generalities or pie in the sky ideas. You will get ideas like, just go get a journeyman that we can get on the cheap without specific names. Like who? Be specific. Andy Dalton, Ryan Tannehill, Gardner Minshew. If you really think a guy like that is gonna beat Patrick Mahomes, but Tua can't, I don't know what to tell you. The pie in the sky ideas with near certainty do not happen. Just because you can trade Tua, a first round pick, and Bradley Chubb for Joe Burrow in Madden doesn't mean that can happen in real life. Trading is hard. The biggest problem is you need to find a partner. Another big problem is that you need to find two people from different teams to value a player or players the same. I am willing to bet that if you asked every GM from across the league what they would be willing to give up in terms of draft capital to acquire Tua, or any other QB for that matter, there would be a wide range.

    We should not even be considering moving off of Tua for a multitude of reasons. This case should be closed.
     
  8. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t know about success, when was the last time we won a playoff game?
    When it comes to Tua, I think the biggest problem people have with him, is, that they don’t want to pay him Burrow money yet and I think rightfully so. If Tua would be a FA, who would pay him Burrow kind of money? I don’t think you’d find many takers.

    If he would sign for less I would be fine with it, although I would prefer to see him play out his 5th year and decide after next season. They did it with Wilkins and imo he earned an extension more then Tua imo as of now. I mean the goal is to win a Super Bowl (that’s going to be hard anyways in the future, when you look at the AFC QBs) and you don’t want to be stuck with a Tannehill kind of QB (imo Tua is better then that!), good but maybe not good enough.

    What I wanna see from Tua next year:
    More maturity in being a professional
    Another healthy season
    Being more „calm“ and confident when he’s off script
    Good performances against top competition
    Playoff win that’s more for the whole team though and mostly Grier.
     
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  9. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    You gotta be fair. He has gotten us to the playoffs twice. Once, he was out for a devastating series of concussions. So are we going to blame Tua for that? Or are we going to blame him for arctic weather or the fact that we were literally signing pass rushers off the streets?
     
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  10. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    One could argue that he took us to the playoffs once, the other time it was Skylar, but that’s being picky. :)
    I‘m not blaming him for everything. I just don’t see how you could pay him Burrow money now (also asked you a question concerning that matter).
     
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  11. tirty8

    tirty8 Well-Known Member

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    We have not won a playoff game in a hot minute. But again, look at that loss in hindsight. We literally lost to the Super Bowl Champions. Just one thing to think about - What if the Dolphins were in the NFC? Your perception might be jaded because the AFC is just so talented.

    One thing you have to think about when giving contracts is that you are not paying him Joe Burrow money, you are paying him market value. Think about how many teams would be instant Super Bowl contenders if they could have Tua: Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Seattle, New Orleans. Washington wouldn't be a Super Bowl contender, but they would be vastly improved.
     
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  12. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    I wrote that with the AFC already, so nothing jaded here. I think you’re overvaluing Tua there with the instant Super Bowl contenders, but I hope he proves you right next season.
     
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  13. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    :sidelol:
     
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  14. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Contracts for players can be quite intriguing. Overall contract, signing bonuses, performance bonuses, cap hits per season, exit clauses…it’s not just a black and white x years for x number of dollars.

    Depending on the language and structure of the contract, you could theoretically sign Tua to a 4 year, $85 million contract, with a $10 million dollar signing bonus, $35 million guaranteed with an option to restructure his contract after 2 years and you know what the cap hit for that contract would be? $2.5 million.

    Go to sportrac.com. You can play around with it and see how you can build a player’s contract and what the cap hit would be.

    What’s really intriguing is Mahomes astronomical contract. His cap hit against the Chiefs, if I recall correctly is a whopping $6 million. It’s no wonder the Chiefs can have the talent they have.
     
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  15. danmarino

    danmarino Tua is H1M! Club Member

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    Some of us have literally been trying to get some here to understand the cap, but they refuse to read the posts or just don’t grasp the info.
     
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  16. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    :sidelol: that MUST be it…
     
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  17. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Alright. dj!!! THIS IS FOR YOU, MAN!!!!!!! Alright, man? PARA TI, MOFO'ER! LOL!!!

    Yeah, it's Barry. I could go on about that, but......just watch it at the end of your day when you have some time.

    LOL!!!

     
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  18. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    But it's a compounding effect. You have to pay up eventually. It's not like you get away with paying 2.5m forever.
     
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  19. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    This is true, sooner or later the check is due…unless you have a player, or players willing to restructure their contracts for the good of the team. Brady did that throughout his time in New England.

    So no one can say we can’t afford this or we can afford that. We can…the question becomes, what is the teammate willing to do for his team?
     
  20. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone is saying that though. I think it's just the reality of the cap and how you don't have unlimited funds. You can manipulate things for only so long. Eventually you need to make tough decisions because of the cap, you can kick money down the road and hope to get help from players, but it's not really a good strategy.

    What do you think they'll do with Wilkins and why will they do that? You basically might need to restructure guys you don't want to restructure to provide cap space. Tua a good example of this.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2024
  21. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What does Pari ti mean?
     
  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    "For you" in Portuguese, I believe
     
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  23. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Para
    Spanish
    Probably Portuguese as well:
     
  24. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    For you!!
    That’s it!!??
     
  25. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Don’t like the guy but he’s spot on
     
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  26. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    He has some valid points. I fear Tua never really got back to 100% after that hip injury and now with last years concussions, that must be in the back of ones mind playing this brutal sport. Hopefully he’ll get in real shape in the offseason and that last season (health wise) is a boost for him mentally as well.
     
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  27. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. That’s it?? Wow! De nada!
     
  28. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    De nada!!
     
  29. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Wilkins is a very intriguing question. From what I have seen, and this is only my opinion, I really think Wilkins WANTS to stay in Miami. He and Sieller just seem to be that close and he truly enjoys playing along side of Zach.

    If I am right, I would think Wilkins would want his payday, but want it in such a way that he stays in Miami. Christian is just that much of a leader and is that respected among his peers.

    Now this is all opinion based, there is nothing tangible I can point to to say I’m right. Call it a gut feeling.

    What I’ve learned about salaries and the salary cap, the higher the signing bonus, the less of a cap hit there is. So the question becomes, can or will Stephen Ross crack open his checkbook to sign Wilkins long term and maintain one of the best DTs in the game?

    Contract watch on Christian has begun.
     
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  30. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    Some of the beat writers have said Wilkins is SUPER cheap. I don't see him taking a discount, but we'll see.

    If they can't workout an extension though, don't you think tagging and trading would be most prudent?
     
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  31. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Can not believe that is your only response!


     
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  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I’ve expressed my displeasure over and over to the point of mods telling me to stop.

    Here you go though.

    I have my eyes and my extensive experience in the field, I studied Tuas every move and as weird as it sounds I studied his body for two weeks strait in camp.at times saw him without his shirt.

    I also know from hard knocks and the pro bowl where he’s at now.

    This is a completely different athlete than what he was coming out of college and we’re talking about a 25 year old.

    We could all see with our eyes how the weight has affected his speed and agility especially with trained eyes.

    I don’t expect folks to just trust me on this, I have a record and have been here a long time evaluating players.

    I’m 100 percent confident that the player lost control of his weight and discipline as the season went on.

    And when you are talking about our favorite organization in sports about to invest hundreds of millions of dollars into a player that has a habitual problem then it’s a major concern for me personally.

    Someone needs to hold this trainer and the player accountable, And question why this strength and conditioning staff ok’d it all.

    Right now I can’t even think about the team it’s future and being positive because the most important part of the equation let himself get completely out of shape during a season, which is nuts to me.
     
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  33. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    I thought one interesting point in that video was how Tua no longer takes a deep drop. Take less of a drop will always result in more pressure. However, they don't want Tua taking a deep drop, reading the field, and making the throw longer.

    The system is short drop and get the ball out.
     
  34. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Lol!!!!!
    Holy. Omg.
    I know. The whole bleeping video was supporting what you have been saying in that regard! It’s one thing I have been saying and agreeing with you on. One thing! Holy poop, man.
    You don’t have to explain to me.
    The whole point of the video was that it agrees and clearly illustrates your point.
    Damn, man!
    Whatever. I tried.
     
  35. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    stop being so difficult, you posted godfather videos and ****.
     
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  36. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Omg
     
  37. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  38. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    ….and here we go. The off-season begins. lol.
     
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  39. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  40. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    So, pass protection, dropped interceptions, luck on interceptable passes, expected YAC***, defenses faced all accounted for?

    I would have figured he was 36th according to this place.
     
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