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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. Tuanon4Life

    Tuanon4Life Well-Known Member

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    I was nervous picking Tua coming off the hip injury and his concussions have me concerned moving forward. Part of Tua's problem has been him not knowing when to stop trying to extend plays and instead throw it away. He has acknowledged it in interviews and hopefully he can use better judgement in the future to protect himself. I remember watching Marino launch the ball to the sidelines to avoid getting sacked all the time. But yea I'm at the point now with Tua that I was after Marino tore his Achilles. Every time Marino went down from then on I held my breath waiting for him to get back up. Yes the OL has been an issue but Tua can also do some things to help himself. I believe we'll see Tua come back this season playing much smarter football. If he just stays healthy then we're legit SB contenders.
     
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  2. Finatik

    Finatik Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    I don't think everything is the OL's fault. He has said he's holding the ball too long.
     
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  3. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I've never blamed Tuafor his circumstances. I agree the circumstances were ****ty. My criticisms of Tua were:

    1. Have never believed that Tua was the driver of an offense, whether collegiate or pro

    2. Concussions

    I've been critical of what he does after the oline let's him down. I've never argued that he wouldn't look better with better play around him. Every player performs better in that scenario.
     
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  4. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Please explain what Lamar Jackson had to do with ANY of what I wrote.

    Also, please explain where I've EVER gone about raving about Jackson and that we should acquire him.
     
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  5. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Now see, I generally agree with this post... although I'd like to see proof that he was handcuffed by Flores.

    A coach can not like a player, or not think he's the greatest, and still not handcuff him. Honestly, why would a coach handcuff the guy running his offense, especially if the guy was sitting in practice he could do everything you want him to do? Seems a risky way to try to keep your job.
     
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  6. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It relates that WHY wouldn't you move heaven and earth to get an oline to protect the guy who you are banking on, who has an extensive history of significant injuries.

    It's absolutely asinine how they are handling the oline.
     
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  7. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    To point #1, there's no viable argument that Tua's comeback against the Ravens was mostly due to his WRs. If that were the case such comebacks would occur far more often. Prior to that comeback QBs were 0-711 when trailing by at least 21 points in the 4th quarter. Tua definitely overcome a bad OL and helped lead the team to victory in that Ravens game.

    So yes, he was the driver of the offense that 4th quarter at least, and arguably for multiple games last season.
     
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  8. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    I think you would have trouble finding many fans that aren't concerned about the offensive line
     
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  9. Tuanon4Life

    Tuanon4Life Well-Known Member

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    I just remember nothing but short five yard passes while Flores was here. Extremely conservative and pulling him every time he struggled. I would call it handcuffed. Once Flores was gone and McDaniel arrived it's changed to throw deep and throw often. Tua's entire demeanor has changed since Flores left.
     
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  10. BigBadBrett

    BigBadBrett Member

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    It seems to be Flores didn’t trust Tua and wanted the vet to play. It could have been more to do with all the drama behind the scenes rather than Tua himself. McD was all in with Tua from day one (maybe because he was told it was part of the job) and had an offensive strategy that played well to Tua’s skills.
     
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  11. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If anyone thinks that Tua as a rookie should of played coming off that injury honestly they don’t have a clue about how the game works imo
     
  12. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Right. My criticism was #1. And now there is #2.
     
  13. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Well, you have often brought up Tua’s injury history. How he’s missed so many games due to injury and as a result, question whether or not the Dolphins should be all in on him. It’s frequently stated by you in this thread.

    By that logic…

    Tua's missed fewer games than Lamar Jackson and yet…Jackson just signed a 5 year deal making him the highest player in the league.
    https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...months of challenging,at $52 million per year.

    I sure don’t hear anyone arguing what a bust of deal that’s going to be for the Ravens. In fact, all I’ve ever heard anyone argue about Jackson is that he’s a better quarterback than Tua…even though he’s missed more games.

    The pendulum swings back and forth concerning Tua. At one point it’s his injury history, which can be demonstratively reputed…to the model of an NFL quarterback…which can also be demonstratively be reputed statistically as well and the bottom line win/loss record.

    I believe there are many that just don’t like Tua for no other reason than “because”
     
  14. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I find it odd regardless of Tua's injury history. We have been dealing with a subpar OL for over 10 years. A couple of years ago, I mapped out the OL changes year by year and it was ridiculous. Something like 2-3 personnel moves (new players or changing positions) on average per year for almost a decade.

    There are two potential mediating factors. (1) if Eich and Jackson can stay healthy and continue to improve, this would be the first time that I can remember having 5 guys come back. (2) this is a quick timing offense and the OL doesn't need to hold up for 3 or 4 seconds.
     
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  15. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Ravens comeback was mostly due to the ravens not playing sound defense in the 4th quarter. They stopped covering the deep ball and had multiple blown coverages.
     
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  16. Tuanon4Life

    Tuanon4Life Well-Known Member

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    Ok so then I guess Tua didn't play bad against LA and SF. It must have just been great defense.
     
  17. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Fool me once, shame on you…
    Fool me twice, shame on me…
     
  18. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    If you take the two Tyreek TDs out of the Baltimore game Tua would have had 350 yards and 4 TDs. What a bum.
     
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  19. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    You forget that Tua was playing terrible the first three quarters? You think he just turned into a completely different QB in the 4th or more likely Baltimore had some defensive breakdowns?
     
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  20. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Two not three. 3rd quarter started with the long drive and the good throw to Gesicki and they had one punt

    How do you explain that most of his stats didn't come from the two breakdowns? Every 10 yard completion was just a breakdown?

    Any game that has a QB with those kind of stats is probably going to have some kind of breakdown or some short passes that go the house or something that inflates the stat sheet.
     
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  21. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Completely untenable hypothesis given that teams in similar situations were 0-711 prior to that. You think that only once in 712 games where a team is leading by 21 points in the 4th quarter that the defense stops covering the deep ball with multiple blown coverages? Stuff like that happens FAR more often.

    No, you get comebacks like that when you get a perfect storm of events, in this case Tua, his WRs and yes the opposing defense all doing things they rarely do for longer stretches. But you can't accept a rational explanation like that. You're so dead set against Tua you'll do everything possible to deny him credit, even for stuff that is so rare and exceptional there's no justifiable way to deny him credit.

    Really sad dude.
     
  22. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    If you think people don't like Tua because he isn't white, come out and say it.

    Jackson doesn't matter because he isn't the Dolphins QB, we aren't pursuing him, and I never advocated for attempting to get him.

    No one has refuted his injury history, they have instead attempted to say house injuries are no different than other players.

    Except they are VASTLY different. Talking about Jackson is a red herring anda strawman argument because it has exactly zero to do with Tua.
     
  23. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Why don't we talk about the whole game? You guys only want to focus on the 4th quarter.

    There are reasons we were getting our asses handed to us. Those two wide open tds completely changed the game and gave us momentum. Great win, but it wasn't all roses.
     
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  24. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    For the whole game Tua had a 72% completion rate, threw for 469 yards, had 6 TDs and 2 INTs, and had a 124.1 rating!! It's the anti-Tua guys that laser focused on the first 3 quarters to try to discredit Tua (going all the way back to the debate right after the Ravens game). I'm very happy to ignore when or in what quarter all that happened and just say Tua had a fantastic game as QB.

    However, the 4th quarter argument is important in one respect: it shows he can carry the team to victory even when things aren't going well. That's an absolute must-have in a franchise QB or you're likely not going deep in the playoffs where opponents are tougher.
     
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  25. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    What were his stats without the 4th quarter? All you want to do is look at the good stuff. That's cherry picking.
     
  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Hold all qbs to the same silly standard you’re doing here
     
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  27. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    ?? You just asked us to look at the whole game! That's what I did. Now YOU want to cherry pick the bad quarters.

    Just accept Tua played great in that Ravens game as well as for the entire season taken as a whole (without cherry picking his bad moments) and let's see how he does next year. The only serious concern left is injuries, not ability to play at an elite level.
     
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  28. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone want to? Because he had the bad 2 INTs but you can't look at the total package and say it wasn't a great game. If you want to talk whole game you have to talk whole game and that also means including the 2nd half.

    Everyone knows it wasn't perfect but why are some of you so uncomfortable giving him credit in that game?
     
  29. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Buddy...that was one of the best NFL comebacks of all time. One of the greatest games of all time. That's definitely not the game to make any kind of point about either quarterback...especially the guy that won.
     
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  30. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    LOL..... self ownage......
     
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  31. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    The only concern I ever had with him was injuries and that’s why I didn’t want us to draft him. I really hope he can put all that stuff behind him next season and go on for a long career. But he has to learn when to throw the ball away and life for the next play!
     
  32. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    WTF are you talking about, DJ?

    I do expect to judge all QBs the same way I'm judging Tua. Yeah, half the third and the 4th were phenomenal. But the first 2 1/2 things weren't phenomenal. So we don't ignore them and only focus on the portion of the game that we liked.

    This is perfect example of what I'm trying to explain to you guys. You think I'm taking shots at Tua now. I'm not. I'm simply disputing what I view as a fraudulent argument. We can't simply look at the good quarter and praise Tua for the great game. Look at everything in totality, and make fair assessments.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2023
  33. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    So did he have a great game or not?
     
  34. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    The whole game is the reason why we prop up the fourth quarter in the first place.
     
  35. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    what am I talking about?

    Res, all qbs can take time aka a quarter or two to figure out a defense. thats why you don't cherry pick, the totality of the game is whats important.
     
  36. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So does Brady suck because the Pats were down 28-3 at the half in Superbowl LI or did he lead the biggest comeback in super bowl history?
     
  37. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Again you only look at stats. I go back and watch that fourth quarter and aside from good ball placement on some throws, there was not one play or throw that made me go wow what a great play/throw by Tua.

    I would say the most impressive one was the short alley oop to waddle in the end zone because of the touch and ball placement. The rest of the plays/throws were mostly just the defense leaving receivers wide open.

    In fact I look at all of last season and I would say there were only a handful of plays I remember where I would say that was a great, elite play/throw by Tua.

    Throwing routine slants and timing routes, or lofting the ball up to wide open receivers are not things that impress me.

    It was the same thing in college, he was propped up by the elite players around him and throwing to wide open recievers which made him look better than he actually is.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2023
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  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    exactly
     
  39. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    You're way too focused on whether the throw looks great or not. That's why you like Herbert so much.

    In the end it's not how good the throw looks, it's production that matters. You should ask yourself why so many of your predictions about Tua's production in 2022 have been wrong — Tua can't be a good deep ball thrower, can't put up elite stats over a season, can't play well without a good OL, can't overcome adversity and carry the team, etc. Your game-by-game predictions were often wrong too. You predicted Tua would play well against LAC but play bad against Buffalo. The opposite happened. Your pre-2022 season prediction about Tua needing a very good OL (even with great WRs) to put up elite stats was wrong too, etc.

    At some point you need to evaluate yourself! Forget Tua. Ask yourself why you've been wrong so often. It's because you have this laser focus on arm strength and physical attributes, which doesn't capture all kinds of other factors that are important for putting up elite production at a consistent level. How are you evaluating Tua's decision-making for example?

    And not all stats are equal. That 0-711 stat trumps any subjective assessment about how a throw looked! You like to say people need to put stats in proper context, but all I see from you is using stats to confirm your pre-held views. That's what you mean by "put stats in context". When was the last time a passing stat from Tua actually changed a pre-held view of yours about Tua? That's the biggest problem I have with you: unwilling to change pre-held views based on evidence.
     
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  40. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    its the same thing when some say throwing to a spot is no big deal, which this dude im sure believes.

    it is a very big deal at the NFL level to be abe to throw to specifics spots for receivers, hes throwing them open, he's not waiting to see them come open before he throws, he's anticipating and being accurate..
     
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