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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Correct me if I’m wrong but…

    Wasn’t this the Dolphins 2nd game of the season under a new head coach, with a new offensive scheme that players were still perfecting?

    Guess that doesn’t factor into anything
     
  2. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It's like you don't understand simple things, in your eagerness to attempt to play gotcha games with my posts.

    The incredible numbers from the 4th could very easily offset a poor quarter in the first half. So my question is very simple, what was his rating in the other quarters? It's important to know that.
     
  3. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I agree the totality is important. It's also important to look at the other three quarters minutes the fourth.

    Again, I'm not bagging on Tua. I'm simply saying, you can't point to the 4th or to the overall rating, and say that because this were great/good that we don't need to look at the other 3 quarters.
     
  4. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'm. Not. Bashing. Tua.

    But you can't just say that because the 4th was great we should just ignore the play in the other 3. If the stats show that Tua played well in the other 3, then that would be amazing.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2023
  5. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    If people are going to point at that game, 4th quarter especially, as proof of his greatness, then yes, by all means, we should look at the entire game.

    I AGREE it was an amazing game. There were many on this site that didn't even watch the second half. I did. I was ecstatic. That quarter changed my stance on Tua. I was very positive on him until the crazy concussions occurred.

    Most of my arguing is not because I dislike Tua and think we should move on. Most of it is arguing points that I find to be invalid. The only way to ever come to agreement is to be in agreement on the criteria and the arguments being used to prove the point.

    I don't know how many times I have to say it: my only real concern with Tua, at this point, is can he stay healthy. Why can't we discuss/criticize a player without everyone assuming that that means we hate the player and want him gone.
    I specifically didn't post much of at all for almost a week or two cause I'm just tired of everything I say being construed as me hating Tua. It's pretty intolerable.
     
  6. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Will you say that to the people who bash him for the GB game? Since all the INTs were in 1 quarter?
     
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  7. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Overall he had a great game. To be honest, I don't remember much about his play in the first half. I really only remember that I almost didn't watch the second half, but I'm a glutton for punishment, so I watched it all.

    That 4th quarter changed my position on Tua. He put up stats and made throws that I truly didn't think he would be able to in the NFL. I made a post even about if he wants 13 we should let him have it.

    Then the concussions hit.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2023
  8. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Who's bashing him for Green Bay? Is this a discussion I've been missing? The offense scored 0 points in the second half, and there were 3 ints in the 4th. Were those all on Tua? I honestly don't remember. A QB can't be blamed for pressing in the 4th, especially late in the 4th.

    But the offense sucked.

    Is that the kind of performance an elite QB puts on late in the season in basically must win games? Is that the kind of performance you expect from your QB late in the season in basically must win games? That the real question, not whether or not resnor wants to judge QBs unfairly.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2023
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  9. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    What do you mean?
     
  10. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Actually, what you just said is something I've argued for quite some time. Given the right circumstances, EVERY starting QB in the NFL is capable of putting up elite stats. They are all elite athletes.

    So, yes, stats are important. But stats when QBs don't have the perfect storm around them are more important, imo, because more often than not, your QB is not going to have the perfect storm of events around him. So you're not as likely to see that version of the QB.
     
  11. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Tua's rating for Q1-Q3 combined was 89.2 and for Q4 was 154.2. Overall he ended with 124.1. League average passer rating was 89.1 last year. So Tua played average for Q1-Q3 using passer rating as the measure, and near perfect in Q4 (max passer rating is 158.3).
     
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  12. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Plenty of people here have bashed him for that game and I have never seen anyone say its just one quarter and nobody should.
     
  13. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    Up until that fourth quarter, everybody and their mother thought that the game was over for Miami. I, myself, thought it was over, and even admitted as such during that game thread. Add in the fact that absolutely NO quarterback as ever led a team to a win when trailing by 21 in the fourth quarter prior to that point, no one had any reason to believe that a quarterback pulled it off. And yet, Tua did. Most, if not all, of the people who prop up the quarter does so because no quarterback as dug himself out a hole prior.
     
  14. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    To set the record straight, that 0-711 record prior to Tua doesn't mean it's never happened before. It's actually happened multiple times. In fact, that famous Monday Night Miracle in 2000 is an example: Jets were losing 30-7 at the start of the 4th quarter to Miami and came back to win it. The most impressive 4th quarter comeback by points was the St. Louis Cardinals (Neil Lomax at QB) coming back from a 28-3 deficit at the beginning of the 4th quarter against the Bucs in 1987 to win the game.
    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/198711080crd.htm

    Nevertheless, prior to Tua, teams were 0-711 when trailing by 21 points or more in the 4th, and no one in over a decade had done it. So it's definitely an extremely unlikely and impressive accomplishment.
     
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  15. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Right. So for you the fourth quarter is the only thing to talk about? Like I feel like Tua could be absolutely average the rest of his career, and people would keep bringing up that fourth quarter, even though it would be evident that the Tua of the first three quarters was the normal Tua.

    So again, we have a situation where I asked a question about the majority of the a game, and everyone is jumping down my throat because "it was the greatest comeback ever."

    Great. Why were they in the position to have to make the greatest comeback ever? I like Tua. I've said many times, if he misses 3 or fewer games this season, we should lock him up long term. If he misses 5 or more games, we have got to move on from him.
     
  16. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    You know, there is a lot of doublespeak going on here regarding that Baltimore game. It really is hilarious and mind boggling.

    For the anti-Tua or overly critical of Tua crowd, he’s overly criticized for that game and the 4th quarter comeback wasn’t due to Tua, but to the lack of defense being played by Baltimore in the 4th quarter.

    Which is it? Did Tua suck that badly, or was Baltimore’s defense that good? And if Tua sucked that badly, what does that say about Baltimore’s defense and team in general to allow such a comeback?

    I subscribed that Tua doesn’t (and didn’t that day) suck. Baltimore has ALWAYS had a great defense. And so what if there was a breakdown in Baltimore’s 4th quarter defense…SO WHAT???? Great quarterbacks exploit weaknesses in defenses…they all do! Our weak defenses have been exploited by great quarterbacks over the years and no one has criticized any of them for being fortunate to play a weak team.

    So many here still look as football as a game of checkers, and not a skillful game of chess that’s played for 60 minutes.
     
  17. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Did you perhaps watch the Dolphins defense and special teams play that game?
     
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  18. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    I stand corrected.

    That was not what I was getting at. At all. But okay.
     
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  19. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Why must you always bring up other posters statements when talking to me? I'm not taking any credit away from Tua for the 4th. I'm looking for more analysis of the other 3 quarters.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2023
  20. Tuanon4Life

    Tuanon4Life Well-Known Member

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    Tuanon welcomes you with open arms whenever you're ready. Take all the time you need. We're here for you.
     
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  21. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I’m sorry…who was I beating up? Whose name did I mention? Did I personally mention you or any other poster?

    No, I merely used the content of your particular post to make an in general counterpoint to the similar point of view expressed in the post I used.

    If you took that as beating you up, give me your address and I’ll ship you a new set of thick skin I have hanging up in my closet.
     
  22. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I did! If the Dolphins defense would have played have as well as they were expected to play, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation because there would have been no Ravens runaway that we had to come from to win.
     
  23. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    It was an autocorrect typo. I was asking why you always insist on bringing up things said by other posters when talking to me.
     
  24. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I'm not anti-Tua. I just at this point have zero belief that he can stay healthy for an entire season.

    That is the entirety of my problem with Tua.
     
  25. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Res that’s simply not tru according to your posts in this thread
     
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  26. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    No it's a bigger chasm than you're making it out to be. The main difference between your viewpoint (since the last flip flop) and that of most Tua supporters is that you've continued to argue Tua is at best a slightly above average QB despite putting up elite stats in 2022. You still think 2022 was primarily due to his surrounding cast, like in Alabama. Hence the Foles argument you brought up.

    Most Tua supporters think 2022 is an indication he can be a top-level QB over a longer period of time if he remains healthy. Yes it's possible Tua is another Foles, but it's equally possible he'll turn into a top-level QB. It's that last part you haven't been on board with since your last flip flop (since his injury), which is why it's justified to say you're "anti-Tua" because there's no way to know which way it will go. Why assume 2022 was primarily due to the surrounding cast? If Tua plays at a high level many years in a row, then a large part of 2022 was Tua.

    You need to stop assuming 2022 was primarily due to the surrounding cast and allow for the equal possibility it was in large part due to Tua if you don't want to have an "anti-Tua" label.
     
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  27. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    DJ, you can continue to think whatever you want. I've explained NUMEROUS time in here that your opinion off the point of my posts is incorrect.

    My initial criticism of Tua was that he wasn't worth that pick due to always paying on an all star team, combined with coming off the horrific hip injury. I was definitely not seeing Tua as a long term option for us, right up to the Ravens game. That game gave me hope that all of you guys were right in your assessment.

    Then the concussions hit.

    Again, the vast majority of the arguments you have a problem with from me, are NOT me arguing that Tua is trash and we need to get rid of him. My posts are arguing with arguments that I find to bed invalid. If you can't understand that, maybe just agree to disagree and just stop ascribing motives to me that I don't have.

    This place is really intolerable at the moment, regardless of what I say, I'm going to have no fewer that 5 posters arguing with me (many of them making the opposite arguments that they made regarding Tannehill).

    I was all in in Tannehill, and was all about "building the team around him," so that we could get high production from him. The reality was, Tannehill was never going to play consistently at elite levels unless he was continuously surrounded by tip tier players. So I'm done with that mentality.

    Right now, how can you argue anything different about Tua? When he doesn't have top tier talent around him, he's been unsuccessful.
     
  28. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    When new information comes in, and your viewpoint chances, that isn't a "flip-flop.". It is reevaluating your position based on new information. You are once again being disingenuous with your comment to me, as you're again ascribing motives to me. The Ravens game gave me hope that I was wrong on Tua. Also, my position isn't "at best" he's average. My position is that his floor is average to above average. The difference is you and others think his ceiling is high, and I don't. I believe in the right situations Tua can put up elite numbers.

    Then the concussions hit and my viewpoint changed. I've been open and upfront with my changing viewpoint, but you want to ignore that and simply accuse me of trolling.

    I brought up Foles AS AN EXAMPLE that one season doesn't mean ****.

    You and others want one season to outweigh his others.
    So ridiculous.
     
  29. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Seriously? In your response to dj just one post above you confirmed exactly what I said!! You just reiterated you're done with this "building the team around him mentality", and that Tua is no different from Tannehill in that respect. Like I said you don't think 2022 is an indication Tua can be a top-level QB even though there's no way to know right now. Yes you're anti-Tua.

    And yes you've flip-flopped on Tua. That's true regardless of whether you did that based on new information or not (there's no motive implied in saying you flip-flopped.. in fact it's you inaccurately ascribing a motive to me saying that).
     
  30. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Yeah. I no longer advocate for building long-term around undependable players.

    It's like you COMPLETELY ignore the fact that I've REPEATEDLY started that if Tua misses 3 or fewer games, we skipped lick him up long-term. You only take the statements I make that you think you can twist into a gotcha moment. This is a ridiculous circle jerk.
     
  31. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    That's not the issue. You were asking why we think you're anti-Tua and it's because you subscribe to the ASSUMPTION that Tua's performance in 2022 was primarily due to his surrounding cast. You can't fathom it might have been to a great degree due to Tua.

    Focus dude. Read what I'm writing!
     
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  32. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    Folks, this thread ran out of steam for me 15 months ago. But you seem to want to keep the argument going ad nauseum. So be it. BUT, no accusations, personal attacks, or anything of the kind. NONE. Thank you.
     
  33. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I thought you just said your only concern is health ?

    Now you’re saying he can’t play well unless his surrounding cast is great

    Before you said him throwing to spots wasn’t a good thing as well because some player said that’s what he does ( well duh).. when in fact that initself he does at an elite level.

    All qbs are limited if their surrounding cast sucks because once the ball is in their hands they can’t do anything with it.
     
  34. Tuanon4Life

    Tuanon4Life Well-Known Member

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    I'm confused.
     
  35. Ohiophinphan

    Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box

    The finger pointing and personal attacks were warming up. This was my way of saying, "No, please don't do that!" Nothing else. This thread generates more reports than the rest of the site combined. Trying to guide it between the lines.
     
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  36. Tuanon4Life

    Tuanon4Life Well-Known Member

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    Ok that makes sense. I just haven't ever felt attacked or insulted by anyone on the forum. If I ever am I won't lose any sleep over it.
     
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  37. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    This thread…
    The Tannehill thread before that…

    Seems like quarterbacks are more polarizing than politicians!

    :lol:
     
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  38. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Actually you asked what his numbers were for the WHOLE GAME. Those were provided. After that (presumably because the numbers were still too good) you decided that you'd like to see the numbers the 4th quarter removed, all while accusing others of cherry picking.....

    BTW, it is only important to know the rating without the 4th quarter if you are looking for a way to discredit his performance in the game. I don't see you doing that for anyone or anything else. How about the defense. Take out the 2nd quarter. They only gave up 10 points. Surely they played a great game, right?

    To answer your (disingenuous) question, without the 4th quarter, he was 23/37, 271 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs for a passer rating of 79.9. Out of fairness, I will remove just two plays from the 1st three quarters. Now without the 4th quarter and 2 plays, he was 23/35, 271 2 TDs, 0 INTs for a passer rating of 108.2. That would have led the league in passer rating. Happy?

    (for the record, I threw these numbers together quickly and did not double check. They could be off but not by much)
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2023
  39. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Just wrong.

    The Dolphins OL was not good last season. Neither was the running game or the play from the TE position. He was far from the perfect storm.
     
  40. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    And if you take out TWO PLAYS in the first three quarters, his passer rating would have been 108.
     
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