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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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  2. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He’s got a couple fan boys in this thread
     
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  3. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    Or he just thinks Mac and Tua are similar QBs without outstanding toolsets and similar college numbers at Alabama. So he ranked the one who can stay on the field higher.
     
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  4. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    What do college numbers have to do with their 2023 NFL rankings? That makes no sense and is just another attempt to disparage Tua. Especially, since Tua was flirting with MVP in 2022 and Jones was benched due to ineffectiveness. Not to mention they both missed multiple games with injuries last year.
     
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  5. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    But Mac stayed healthy a full season and stayed healthier last season w/ less serious injuries. Coming into 2022 who was ranked higher? A year of partial play with the best weapons in the league doesn't change as much as some of you believe it to.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2023
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  6. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    or he's delusional.lol
     
  7. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Again, what was with the lame college statistics dig you tried to make and how is that relevant to current NFL QB rankings?

    Again, with the "weapons" nonsense again. I don't see anyone slighting Hurts or Burrow with all the weapons they have had.

    Lame.
     
  8. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    So if someone isn't as convinced as you, they're delusional?

    This is why this is just a giant circle jerk.
     
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  9. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    What dig? I said their college statistics were similar. How is that a dig? How is college performance relevant to future NFL projections? Is that seriously your question?
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2023
  10. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Explain to me how are Tua and Jones' college statistics relevant in their 4th and 3rd years in the NFL? Explain to me how many quarterbacks college statistics are relevant to future NFL projections. Bailey Zappe threw 62 touchdowns his last year in college, does that factor in to his rankings in the NFL right now?
     
  11. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    Because what are they in this league is still very much TBD. Mac and Tua are pretty similar in a lot of ways. Weak to average arm strength. Unathletic. No ability to run. Accurate. Same development under the same college program. College stats are just another similarity.
     
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  12. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yeah cause simms isn’t delusional sure

    Tua shut him the **** up last year just like all Tua haters..

    He killed the narrative dont ya remember

    The only leg y’all have at this point is health..

    So anyone doubling down is a hater end of story
     
  13. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Wait. I thought your only concern was his health and if he misses 3 games or less the Dolphins should lock him up long term.... you want to lock up the 21st ranked QB??? WTF?
     
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  14. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Mac Jones had an 84 passer rating last season. Tua's was 105..... you Tua haters have jumped the shark.
     
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  15. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Tom Brady was a bum. He couldn't even hold on to the starting job at Michigan.
     
  16. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    They're two completely different Quarterbacks that play completely different styles. You can't compare their game at all with one another. They both went to Alabama and that is about it. I don't see any similarities between the two of them beyond that. Mac Jones does not read the field the way Tua does.

    I also don't understand how their college stats alone tell you anything at all about them. There's a lot of quarterbacks that put up insane college numbers and yet never played a down in the NFL.

    Also, Mac Jones in no way shape or form makes the Patriots offense run as efficiently as Tua makes the Dolphins offense run. Before you blame play calling, just remind yourself that Brady was a Patriot. Before you blame lack of receivers on New England, remind yourself that Jones is also playing behind a better offensive line than Tua. Yet he still is nowhere near the talent that Tua is.

    I'm not really trying to jump into this conversation, but you are saying that there seem to be glaring similarities between the two of them and those similarities are "Weak to average arm (I like how you put weak first)", then you double down on the athletic part by first saying "unathletic" and then saying "no ability to run" (which mean the same thing). Then you use them going to the same college and their "stats" for some added extra charisma at the end "take that Beetchez."

    You seriously sound dumb right now.
     
  17. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Mac Jones has been an average QB in NE, Tua was also an average quarterback for the Dolphins until he got Tyreek and Waddle and Mcdaniels offense. When they had similar talent and supporting cast at Alabama they put up similar numbers, and actually Jones best season at Alabama was better than Tua's best season.

    You guys keep wanting to minimize what having the best and fastest recieving duo in the NFL has done for Tua. I maintain that its more Hill and Waddle and mcdaniels offense that made the difference last year, rather than Tua all of a sudden turning into a great elite QB.

    I see Tua as a good but not great QB that has had the fortune of playing with elite level receivers at Alabama and now at Miami. You take those receivers away from him and he would not perform at the same level as Mahomes has for example even after losing Tyreek.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2023
  18. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Lol they are literally justifying this moron

    A new low for the trolls

    Y’all better hope he craps the bed or you have the guts to be a man and admit how wrong you were.
     
  19. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Tua should feel fully immersed into his leadership role now.

    A practical learner like he is with another year of experience seeing defenses and two years in the same system

    Watch out now.
     
  20. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    They had similar statistics in college though.
     
  21. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Him and McDaniel look loose, man. They know big things are coming.
     
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  22. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    There's an annual competition for predicting the outcome of NFL games, and none of the models at the top of the leaderboard use college stats. Not ONE! And these are machine learning models where you can plug in any number of variables. Even with machine learning, it's not true that adding more variables always helps, so it's telling that no one uses college stats for NFL prediction.
    https://www.thepredictiontracker.com/nflresults.php?year=22

    btw.. some of those models include preseason adjustments. Not college stats though. Shows you how useless college stats are for predicting NFL success.

    And it's well known that specifically for QBs, college passing efficiency stats have very low correlation to NFL passing efficiency stats. At most you're getting 5-7% of variance explained. It's so small you're better off disregarding the data, or if you're building these machine learning models you'll find that NFL data are better substitutes.
     
  23. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    They're hoping he craps the bed. We've already seen the constant goalpost shifting. I can't remember the last time there was an admission of being wrong. Instead, it's a game of trying to come up with yet another possible mechanism for how everyone except Tua is responsible for the success he had. But if the stats are bad.. well then it's fine to blame Tua.
     
  24. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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  25. OwesOwn614

    OwesOwn614 Well-Known Member

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    Big O checks into the discussion:
     
  26. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    isnt it funny and ironic that they go away for a bit, then only to come back when a meathead douchebag writes that Tua is 21st ranked..

    lol, so funny the desperation
     
  27. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    No one here is using college stats to predict NFL performance. We are comparing two QBs and how good they showed themeselvs to be under very similar circumstances in Alabama.

    Right now they don't have similar circumstances in the NFL so it is not a surprise they currently don't have similar numbers.

    IMO they are both just average to above average talent wise, not great or elite.
     
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  28. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    Right. We are comparing two QBs who played with some of the same players in the same system at the same college, and performed very similarly.

    Mac Jones in his rookie season outproduced Tua in his 1st two. Mac has shown an ability to do better with nothing, while Tua needs an offensive minded coach and multiple elite weapons. Makes sense Tua did better last year, but still couldn't stay on the field. Put Mac in the Dolphins system and you'd likely get similar or better results with better health.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2023
  29. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Not true. TheHighExhaulted said this:
    to which StaleTacos posted what I responded to, including saying
    So yes the discussion was about NFL projections. College stats are immaterial to that discussion, including what Tua is likely to do in year 4.
     
  30. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Also an untenable hypothesis given how unlikely it is for anyone to end up #1 in many key passing stats. Something that rare is very unlikely (though not impossible) for an average QB with a great surrounding cast. Problem is, Tua had great WRs but not a great OL or RB. I doubt Mac Jones would do well behind the bad OL Tua had to work with.
     
  31. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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  32. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Dude, maybe just try to stop attacking posters.

    You made an incredibly narcissistic post, I called it out, and then you attacked again.

    There is nothing delusional about someone disagreeing that Tua has demonstrated that he is capable of:

    1. Playing at that level, or close to it, for a majority of a season, and
    2. That he can stay healthy for one season

    These are not knocks or digs on Tua. These are not unreasonable expectations. These are not things that mean you are a "hater" or "delusional." Yes, Tua absolutely showed me that he does have the capability of leading an offense that scores points. He hasn't shown me the other things.
     
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  33. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I will give you this Hitman, and I certainly hope you are objective enough to agree with me.

    Too many times, teams will draft a quarterback that played well in the NCAA and instead of developing an offense geared to their skills set, they make these newly drafted quarterbacks change what made them great to “fit the team”. After all, this is the NFL now young man.

    Great coaches develop or even alter their offenses to showcase the talent of the quarterback they drafted.

    Shula was a die hard, smash mouthed run the ball to set up the pass coach. It was his proven formula of success from Baltimore to Miami. But when he saw what he had in Marino, the Dolphins offense dramatically changed.

    Andy Reid…he’s had undeniable success with 3 different quarterbacks in McNabb, Smith and Mahomes. He’s also had 3 different offensive schemes for each of them.

    No one would ever deny the greatness of the quarterbacks listed above (Smith’s finest years were under Reid), so do we diminish their greatness because of the coaching and tools they had?

    Absolutely not…and neither should Tua’s success under McDaniel be diminished. Good coaches set the players they have up for success, not throw them to the wolves, force a scheme down their throats that isn’t “them” and hope for the best.
     
  34. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Does the same hold true for Burrow? He has just as much talent around him as Tua.

    Josh Allen? Hurts? Rodgers? All have had much worse seasons when missing their top talent.

    I acknowledge that better talent helps immensely for ALL QBs. You want to act like it is just Tua. Tua's impact on the offense can be measured by the production drop with him out of the lineup.

    Hill and Waddle weren't more open than other top receivers on average. They were not making spectacular catches to make up for off target throws. They were making the catches they should make on very well thrown balls. Tua was making the reads and making the throws.

    This season you are going to see good performances by Berrios and Anderson in addition to Hill and Waddle. IMO Tua out of the lineup would result in a much bigger drop-off than losing anyone else.
     
  35. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    I heard that they were similar QBs in pre-school too.
     
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  36. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Simms thinks hitting a receiver 50+ yards down the field, in stride, is a regular occurrence in the NFL. The % is a lot lower than people think.
     
  37. FinFaninBuffalo

    FinFaninBuffalo Well-Known Member

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    Tua should not have even played as a rookie. Flores tried to sabotage his career. He had no offseason or training camp and wasn't healthy. Even with all that, his numbers were not far off of Jones.

    Let's compare on a more even playing field.

    Tua in his 2nd season with nothing:

    upload_2023-5-26_7-15-26.png

    Mac Jones in his 2nd season with nothing:

    upload_2023-5-26_7-16-0.png

    Tua had a better record, better completion %, more TDs, fewer INTs, better passer rating, and better QBR.

    Other than that, you are correct......
     
  38. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Josh Allen's stats didn't balloon either until a certain elite wide receiver was traded for.
     
  39. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Reminder that Chis Simms said that people were idiots for arguing that Tua was better than Taysom Hill
     
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  40. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Well-Known Member

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    Let me repeat. Jones rookie season was BETTER than Tua's 1st and 2nd season in the league. Tua only got good in his 3rd season when they brought in a 2nd elite receiver, 1 wasn't good enough. And even then, it started to correct later in the season.

    And no. Flores didn't try to sabotage Tua. He fired the OC Gailey who ran a system too complex for him. He hired Tua's QB coach he had experience with in college. Drafted his buddy in Waddle. Hired 2 OCs who created a whole system he was familiar with in RPO. If you think that's sabotage, what do you call hiring Matt Patricia as an unofficial OC?
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2023
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