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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

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  1. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Whether Tua starts or not it won't make much difference.
     
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  2. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Stop. There is nothing even remotely similar in the two situations
     
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  3. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    yeah, the oline has never been this bad i agree. This legit isnt an nfl line.
     
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  4. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    I have said before, if you put a great team around Tua, he can do the job and have success, but if you are counting on him to be an elite franchise QB and carry the team, he just does not have the talent to do that.

    I believe Tannehill is actually better than tua, but he is also not an elite franchise QB. He has had an amazing team in Tennessee and still has not managed to even get to the SB, let alone win it, which should be the goal.
     
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  5. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    I'm saying they dont play him what do you guys think.
     
  6. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Tannehill was ***NEVER*** the problem in Miami and you KNOW it! When you have being hit 1.6 seconds after the ball is snapped, I don't if your name is Tannehill, Brees, Brady, Marino, Manning or Rodgers...as a quarterback you're not going to produce.

    I told everyone here...EVERYONE what was going to happen with Tannehill in Tennessee his first season there. I told everyone and no one believed me. Tagovailoa is not the problem in Miami neither, but all of you quarterback jockeys keep riding that horse and the Dolphins will NEVER be a worthy team...EVER!

    Build the freaking TEAM...then maybe your quarterback can actually produce. Keep chasing quarterbacks until you catch lightening in a bottle and I'll be in the grave before the Dolphins ever appear in the Super Bowl again.
     
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  7. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Tannehill was DEFINITELY one of the main problems the Dolphins had. THAT I know. As I said, Tannehill can't overcome adversity, unlike those other QBs you listed. If you think Brees, Brady, Marino, Manning and Rodgers wouldn't have produced MUCH better than Tannehill, then I think you have a totally inaccurate view of what a good/great QB can do to overcome adversity. You seem to vastly undervalue QBs and think it's mostly about the rest of the team.

    As far as what you told everyone, you also kept telling everyone for the last 1 1/2 years that Tannehill was the next Drew Brees. You've been as wrong about that as you were right that Tannehill would do well his first season in Tennessee. So there's no extra credibility there for predicting Tannehill's performance. No one has been consistently right about Tannehill. No one.
     
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  8. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I have! I've consistently flip-flopped on both sides of the fence as I continually changed my mind, LOL.
     
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  9. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    No Brad, I don’t undervalue quarterbacks but you most certainly OVER value them. And if you truly think any of those quarterbacks I listed would have produced better on the TEAMS Miami has fielded during Tannehill’s days with the Dolphins…with the OFFENSIVE SCHEMES that were being ran here…

    You and others seem to have this notion and mindset that elite quarterbacks are readily available on shelves at any Dollar General and it’s Miami’s (or any other team) fault that they don’t have one. Well sadly, elite quarterbacks are in fact rare, hence the title elite. Average to above average quarterbacks have won Super Bowl and elite quarterbacks have never won one. The difference? The TEAM that was fielded.

    Eli Manning has TWO Super Bowl rings…Dan Marino for example has none. Joe Flacco has a ring…so does Aaron Rogers. Nick Foles, a journeyman back up has a ring, Jim Kelly doesn’t. Way too many examples to list. Bottom line is the TEAM is far more important than any one player. Super Bowl LII is a perfect example of that.

    And as for my boy Tannehill?
    2019 Tennessee Titans 9-7, lost AFC Championship
    2020 Tennessee Titans 11-5, lost wildcard
    2021 Tennessee Titans 7-2 currently

    Do you really want to go there with me? Do you? Would you really rather nit pick meaningless stats than admit the Titans and Tannehill are FAR superior than our Dolphins? Would you really rather blather about Tannehill than admit had Grier and the front office put a true effort in building a TEAM that we would be the ones benefiting from Tannehill? Do you really want to go there?
     
  10. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    OK.. so you seriously think that Rodgers, Brady, Marino, Manning and Brees would do no better than Tannehill on the teams we fielded in Miami. That's one of the most ludicrous positions I've ever heard. And I think every GM, HC and QB in the NFL would agree with me.

    Scheme all you want, Marino does what he does. Rodgers would have tremendous pocket presence and make plays Tannehill would take sacks on like a deer in headlights. Manning is a field general, and Brees and Brady have some of the fastest release times with tremendous accuracy. Sorry dude, these are elite QBs. Tannehill is nothing like them and never will be.

    Who ever said that? They're rare, but you do what you can to get them.

    Most of the teams that won the SB the last 20 years had elite QBs or QBs that played elite in the year they won the SB. That's true for Eli, Flacco and Foles. In the years they won them they played REALLY well. You have to go to someone like Dilfer for a true exception to the rule that QB play was highly important in winning the SB.

    No one said the Titans aren't superior to the Dolphins. But that's not due to Tannehill. It's due to them having a better organization from owner to GM to HC. My claim is that Tannehill won't win a SB with the Titans, an otherwise very good team, because he can't overcome adversity (with rare exceptions). We'll see who is right.
     
  11. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    The sportsbooks are listing Brissett as the starter tonight.
     
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  12. Kud_II

    Kud_II Realist Division

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    I think he's part of the problem (unless you're A-Ok with average at QB) (and to be fair average QBs have won superbowls) I disagree that Tua is not a problem. His noodle arm shrinks the playbook and his glass body doing his best Parker impersonation, never know when the noodle arm is gonna play. He's great in the dink and dunk offense, but with no deep threat teams will start to play up on the LOS so then you're offensive coordinator is either forced to get really creative or get stopped (by most defenses)

    But for now, I don't see another answer to replace Tua unless a name emerges in the draft.

    But I digress, If the question is, "Do the Dolphins have much bigger problems than Tua right now?" Yes obviously. However, if a shiny new upgrade at QB emerges I'll be on it like white on rice.
     
  13. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    I think you're wrong on that point- Tannehill is a huge part of their success. Just compare his tenure to Mariota's...it's a night and day difference.

    Maybe he's not "elite"...but what does that really mean in the real world? Marino was elite but he was also one of the least mobile QB's in the league. Miami covered that weakness by giving him an excellent offensive line to pair with his quick release. We see the same thing with Brady today.

    With Tannehill, he has a great arm, great pre-snap reads, pretty good vision, pretty good touch/accuracy, pretty good mobility once he breaks the pocket plus he's absolutely tough as nails. On the negative side, he doesn't feel pressure in the pocket, doesn't anticipate and gets caught flat-footed more than just about anyone in the league.

    My point is that rare QB's like Marino or Brady might have 5+ elite qualities, while Tannehill has maybe 2. That doesn't mean he can't play at elite levels though with the right supporting cast and the right offense. He has a much better chance of being "elite" in Tennessee though since he has much better protection, Derrick Henry and a solid receiving corp.

    The same goes for Tua- he's elite at precision passes with his super-quick release. Maybe it's not enough to be a winning QB in the league, maybe it's more than enough. But we won't see it until the rest of the offense gets sorted out with the right kind of complimentary talent.
     
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  14. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Not this year. He's neither statistically playing better than average, nor is it clear how he's so instrumental to their wins. Henry was on track to have back-to-back 2000+ yard rushing seasons. No running back has ever done it twice. And in their last game against the Rams it was their defense that won it, not Tannehill.

    I said this in 2019, but it takes time for teams to adapt, and as more time has passed Tannehill's impact has gone down. Yes, in 2019 he was instrumental. Not today.

    It means that the QB consistently gives you a good chance to win even when the rest of the team is letting you down, i.e., overcoming adversity on a consistent basis. Or if there's no adversity, they put up huge numbers more often than not.
     
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  15. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    You call Tua a dink and dunk passer. While I get what you’re saying, the much larger problem is with such a pours offensive line, Tua has little to no choice but dink and dunk. He’s not given enough time in the pocket for the deeper routes to develop. Not only that, but our passing offensive scheme is right out of offense for dummies that defenses have taken away those deeper routes, even when Tagovailoa does have the time.

    Tua may not have a cannon, but he is an accurate passer who can hit those deeper routes…provided he’s given the time and the receivers actually get open. Can’t fault him for not throwing to a receiver that isn’t open
     
  16. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    The same issues Tannehill had here, he still has in Tennessee. Those ints he throws have not changed in the slightest. Jalen Ramsey got him Sunday night and after it happened, the announcers mentioned something about Tannehill throwing to his right and it being a weakness in his game. That has never been corrected. The reason why he's so much better though in Tennessee is because he has had Derrick Henry, he has some really nice targets to throw to in AJ Brown, his offensive line gives him the time he needs, and the defense plays with an attitude that I have only seen on teams that want to win a Super Bowl. People say that you can win with Tua if all the other pieces are in place. The same thing can be said about Tannehill and it's happening in Nashville right now. From the front office to the coaching staff on down to the players, then entire franchise has the right attitude about everything and that is why they are winning ball games. To his defense, Tannehill never had any of that kind of stability here in Miami. Tua doesn't either. I think we were all spoiled by how great Marino actually was for us because it never mattered. The entire sky could be falling on top of Miami, the team could be facing a defense of crocodiles and he'd still go out there and throw all them. Marino could throw a touchdown pass to guys like Greg Baty or Brett Carolan and make them look like stars for a day. We're never going to have another Dan Marino on this roster ever again. You have to have a functionality from the top down in order to be a winning organization. We are as dysfunctional as it gets and we have been ever since Stephen Ross has been the owner. Don't expect this to change and more importantly don't expect a player like Tua to change it either. Peyton Manning wouldn't even come here, neither would Tom Brady. That alone should tell you something about this team and how it's run. Nobody wants to coach here, players don't want to sign here and to beat all it's freaking Miami.
     
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  17. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    Can Tua hit those deep routes? People are faster in the NFL than college, the windows much smaller. Tua may have lost a bit due to the hip injury and he had -at best, a marginal NFL arm to start with.

    As you noted, we won't know for sure until he has more time in the pocket, but betting on Tua going forward is a risk. Oh, and the injuries continue to pile up for him.

    Maybe Tua isn't the problem, but I doubt he is the solution.
     
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  18. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Rodgers, Brady, Marino, Manning and Brees are arguably 5 of the all time greatest QBs who have ever played the game. Of course you add one of them to your roster and its going to improve the team. I doubt anyone is arguing it wouldn't.

    The argument is that those teams had so many other issues that even QB play at the level those guys produced wasn't going to win you a super bowl and that had they improved the roster around Tannehill he was fully capable of winning a high percentage of games (which gives you a chance at a super bowl) just like he has been doing in TN.
     
  19. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    That's precisely what TDK is arguing, that even 5 of the greatest ever would not have done better than Tannehill on the Miami teams we had. I've been through these discussions with him before and that's actually what he believes. He consistently undervalues the impact that such QBs can have. That's really the entire crux of (most of) the debates I've had with him: the influence of the QB vs. rest of the team.
     
  20. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    I dunno its definitely a interesting debate on whats the most important on either side of the ball. I personally think it goes oline > qb > anything else and Dline > anything else. The floor with a good qb is lower than the floor with a really good oline and a bad qb imo. I feel like this because the oline also factors into the run game as well as the pass game it just increases production across the board.
     
  21. VManis

    VManis Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Is he arguing that they wouldn't make any difference or that they wouldn't make enough of a difference? I'll let him answer that but I read it as the later which I agree with.
     
  22. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    "ANY".. read the quote:
    Literally saying those great QBs would not have "produced better". Also, that's the only stance consistent with years of posts of his. He's stated that many times before.
     
  23. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    And I stand by that statement still! I’ve seen every one of those quarterbacks get sacked when their offensive lines fails to pick up a blitz here or miss a block there. Those occasion for those quarterbacks were rare but for Tannehill, every snap of the ball was basically a full out blitz. Remember, Tannehill was getting hit, on average 1.6 seconds after the ball was snapped.

    If anyone thinks those great quarterbacks would produce any better constantly being hit that quickly after the ball is snapped is living in a dream world
     
  24. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well he's certainly becoming a problem when he can't stay on the field and out of the trainers room.
     
  25. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Tannehill was middle of the pack in time to throw, around 2.6 seconds in 2016 and 2.65 seconds in 2018, which is literally impossible if what you said about 1.6 seconds is true (it's not). So you're basically just making up a stat there with that 1.6 seconds being "every snap" or anything close to it. Maybe you can provide a link to this 1.6 claim? I can at least show you the official stats:
    https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing/2018/REG/all#yards

    And btw.. practically everyone (except you) thinks that those great QBs would have performed a LOT better on those Miami teams so it's really you that's living in a dream world thinking great QBs would do no better than Tannehill in Miami.
     
  26. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    He’s clearly been benched imo.
     
  27. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Any vs enough...

    Would any of those quarterbacks make some throws that Tannehill didn't? Possibly...maybe, but would the game result be any different?

    NOPE!
     
  28. Hooligan

    Hooligan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Matt Moore outplayed Tannehill the few times he came in cold off the bench.
     
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  29. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    To be fair though, Matt Moore was the best quarterback ever. Just sayin'. =)
     
  30. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Quite the "statement game" from Tua last night. Not getting the start which appears to have had him frustrated pre-game; having to watch our stagnant offense with Brissett; then Brissett gets hurt and he comes in cold which completely changed the dynamic and performance of the offensive unit as a whole which really helped us to the win although he was clearly struggling to throw the ball at times with that injured finger. I know the defense was great last night but I'm not sure if we win that game if Tua doesn't get in there. It was a night and day difference for the offense. Kind of like how when he got the hook last year for Fitz. May not have been flashy on the stat sheet, but it was still a "statement game" kind of performance from him there last night IMO.
     
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  31. Daytona Fin

    Daytona Fin Active Member

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    I don't see the big turnaround on offense. Tua made a few good passes but that was about it, Brissett probably would have had a couple plays too had he played. 10 points in second half, 9 in the first half. Not being able to punch it in when we had it at the 1 in 4th quarter was pathetic. This game was all on the defense and a busted play by the Ravens D. I don't see much difference in play between Tua/Brissett. There's no clear indication of a bright future w/ Tua, going to be a couple years of growing pains before we know.
     
  32. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    We had 16 points in the 2nd half, 6 in the 1st half. Either way, whether Tua turns out to be good enough longer term or not, there's no question he's a massive upgrade over Brissett, and that's not just from one game either. I'm also not certain we win that game yesterday if Brissett stays in. Baltimore was mounting a comeback and if Tua doesn't complete that TD drive late in the 4th to make it 22-10 instead of 15-10 I don't know if we win that.
     
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  33. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    I felt there was an uplift when Tua came in the game. He did well with the talent that was out there.
     
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  34. Daytona Fin

    Daytona Fin Active Member

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    6 points came from the defense. Massive is a bit of a reach, their production this season is almost identical.
     
  35. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    Nobody that watches the games could possibly think the team isn't much better with Tua vs Brissett

    His finger was bothering him but not enough for him to not to start so why didn't he start? Something stinks there. Please fire everyone.
     
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  36. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    Tua's rating is 87.3 while Brissett's is 78.1. A 9.2 point difference in passer rating is pretty big. Also the Y/A difference is quite big: 7 for Tua and 5.7 for Brissett. Whatever the adjective used, there is a pretty big difference in production.
     
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  37. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    :sidelol: It's back!! No! Not the Tannehill thread again! No!!
     
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  38. Daytona Fin

    Daytona Fin Active Member

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    In terms of being a part of the success of the offense, points, victories, we're debating which nickel is shinier. At the end of the day they're both dull.
     
  39. cbrad

    cbrad .

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    For now yes. Tua's only in his 2nd year, and I think he needs to show he can end at least slightly above average, a major improvement over last year, so my target for him is a 95 rating at the end of the year (current league average is 93.3). He does that and he's on track.
     
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  40. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but Tua is on pace for 9.3 Emergency room visits per season, while Brissett is at 3.2 per season. Other than turnovers, these numbers are critical to wins in the NFL.

















    :couch:
     
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