Tua is not the Problem

It's a fair (and fun) debate. It's gonna be a long offseason, so what else do we have to discuss?

 

That's his opinion. And opinions are like ***holes. But in the end, he's either right or wrong and I think it'll be fun to find out.

 

Well there is nothing to discuss regarding Herbert. We know they should have taken him.

 

Crying over spilled milk is poor form. Let's discuss the 30 or so players "should have been taken" over the past decade, too. If that's a pointless exercise, so is pissing and moaning over not taking Herbert. I can imagine a time when we could lose in the AFC Championship in overtime and some of our fans will be complaining that we would have won if we had Justin Herbert, even though his team would have been eliminated.

 

I watched Bradshaw's HBO special last night, expecting it to be stand-up comedy, but it was actually him telling his story starting out with the Steelers. It was a GREAT watch, especially since I was too young in his era to really see him play.

Anyway, his 1st few years in the league, he was labeled a failure and he went onto say if he would have played today, he would have washed out by year 3 since the league gives up on QBs way too fast. He talked about the immaculate reception, where he was under extreme pressure, saw a black jersey down the field and chucked the ball without even knowing who it was or whether or not they were open. He also shared that whenever he was in trouble, he'd throw the ball as hard as he could in the direction of Swann...sometimes without even looking to see if he was open.

The point he kept coming back to over and over again was the philosophy of team...they had 11 guys on offense that were always there for each other, plus the defense was so good that it allowed him to take a lot of chances. He felt like any of his 3 receivers could come down with the ball anywhere on the field, especially Swann, and he really didn't care if they were open or not.

Afterwards, I couldn't help but compare that to the situation Tua is in. Yes, he has guys like Williams and Parker who can elevate to catch tough passes, but he doesn't have the chemistry with them like Fitzpatrick or even Rosen did. He also has Gisecki, but those are developing routes and he probably doesn't see Gisecki with the amount of time he has in the pocket.

That's why so much went to Waddle last year- that was Tua's "Swanny" and they were all shorter routes due to pressure.

What am I trying to say- I don't know, LOL. Maybe Tua needs to stop trying to be so perfect. Bradshaw touched on those first three years where he was largely a failure came partially because his coach was so mean to him- he was always telling him off and putting him down. The coach was so ugly that Bradshaw was terrified of making a mistake and it made him spend too much time thinking in the pocket. But eventually, he said the heck with it and just started throwing the football. And that's when his career projection completely turned around.

I never thought it before, but it's entirely possible that Flores was "holding Tua back" by not supporting him enough. Maybe he can turn a corner this year under a coach that believes in him, and maybe he can unlock more of the intermediate passing game by saying "the heck with it." We saw the same thing with Tannehill, he was so scared to make a mistake, that he didn't take that step in his career until he stopped trying to be so conservative. But I think quarterbacks sort of have to play that way in this era because their careers are so short otherwise.

 

Thing is, I'm not so sure everyone or even the majority on this board will admit that. They fall back on other arguments, like the line sucks and/or he needs more/better weapons, better coaching, etc. Or, what difference does it make? What's done is done.

Some get it though, but we're definitely in the minority I think.

 

I wouldn't confuse people saying the jury is still out on Tua with thinking it was the right call. In theory they could win a SB with Tua and then it would be the right call but I think everyone here would take Herbert if they could redo it.

Problem is for some there is no room for anything other than "Herbert=good Tua=bad". It doesn't really have much relevance in regards to McDaniel trying to get the most out of him and this team. Should McDaniel just come out and say Tua sucks because he isn't as good as Herbert? I know there are many that would like to see him say that even though I don't see what good it would do.

 

Agreed. While Tua has is issues and needs to improve, in the last two years he has been fine. I want a quarterback better than fine like everyone, however, it is not like he has been Josh Rosen out there.

 

Stop it.

I specifically said, he's never been the driving force of an offense. He was not the focus or the driver of the offense at Alabama, and he's been neither of those things thus far for the Dolphins.

Now, you may be happy with a high completion%, or for a high rating, or other such things. I'm not, and it is due this reason: Tua can have ALL the right stats being great, but it won't necessarily equate to being a force in the playoffs, because those numbers will be a result that was created by other players. I understand that the QB needs people to block and needs receivers to catch the ball. You may remember I made that argument many times regarding Tannehill. There are many many similarities, I think, between Tannehill and Tua. The reason that I personally wanted to give Tannehill time, was because of his arm. I believed that if you could give Tannehill a solid line, he had the arm to make every freaking throw. So, with a decent line, I believed Tannehill could pay at elite levels. Instead of having to throw short passes, he'd be able to attack downfield. With Tua, even with a good line, you don't have a guy who can really attack all the areas of the field. Regardless of his success with the "deep ball" in college, he hasn't shown much in the NFL, and it isn't all because of the crappy line play. Some of it is he doesn't seem to see NFL open, or he sees it, but isn't confident he can get it there.

Sorry for the book. Lol

 

I wasn't around for the Tannehill era, unfortunately. And I'm perfectly cool to disagree as long as we aren't disagreeable (which we aren't). Can't wait for you to tell me your #1 jersey is in the mail. I'm predicting it will be ordered right before Thanksgiving.

 

Its because Tua was an obvious scapegoat. Even one of the reports that came out after Flores was fired said Tua had no issue with Flores continuing as coach.

 

Flores was on a platform where he could have said anything he wanted to say about Tua, and said this.

That's very telling.

 

Tua isn't the problem.

An incompetent front office who have had more draft capital and free agent cap space and yet produce an offensive line to rival some of the worst of all time, are to blame before Tua. Is Tua elite? No probably not. Can he behind a competent line win games? I think so.

Grier and Ross are the problems, and have been for years. The years and years of failure and mistakes have one consistent thread. That is Ross and Grier. As a fan since being 4 years of age here in the UK each year hurts more and more.

Ross and Grier need to go, until that happens the Dolphins will continue to be a laughing stock.

 

The specific concern that Flo allegedly had with Tua was that he took Tuesdays off instead of coming to the facility to get extra training. I can actually see Flo believing Tua worked hard when he was there but wanted him to want to work 8 days per week. He might be of both opinions.

 

I definitely don't want a QB just chucking the ball when under pressure, in the general vicinity of a receiver he doesn't know is open. I was done with Tua this season after I watched him throw a pick in the red zone doing that.

 

Nah, I refuse to buy current players jerseys any more. They don't stay on the team. The last two jerseys I bought for myself were a Ronnie Brown, traded the next year, and a Tannehill, traded a year or two later. Then I got my son a Landry jersey, and he was gone the next year.

Actually, maybe I should get a Tua jersey. I'll get one for me and my son...pretty much guarantees that Tua will be gone the next year.

 

I'm going to design a "I'ma Tagavailoa!!" shirt (with a caricature of your face in Tua's cartoon uniform) and send one to you. Best gift you'll get this year. In 20 years, you'll still be wearing it at his induction in Canton and telling your grandkids you always knew he was going to be a hall of famer.

"Drafting him was the moment when everything changed for the Dolphins," you'll say, with a hint of a tear showing in your eye. "I knew it the day we drafted him."

Meanwhile, I'll be looking back over my shoulder, hearing your proud boast, recognizing you by that goofy shirt that I sent you, while thinking "This motherf***er right here, though..."

 

It's nice to be optimistic, but there is just one problem with that comparison. Bradshaw was tough as nails and had a cannon for an arm, one of the strongest arms in NFL history. Tua on the other hand is fragile and has a noodle for an arm.

I really don't see the similarities other than they struggled early and their coach got on their case.

Tua's problem is not really mental, it's physical.

 

BECAUSE HE PLAYS FOR THE EFING CHARGERS ALREADY!!!!!!

This sounds like an annoying continuous broken record!

 

I don't know if that's true. Sure, Tua certainly doesn't have Bradshaw's arm and I wasn't trying to make that comparison. But in year one, Tua had no idea what "NFL open" even meant. In year two, he started connecting on some of the intermediate routes after multiple reads. Still not a great NFL QB or anything, but he did look like an NFL QB anyway.

For year 3 with a new coach that really believes in him, I think we'll see how much is mental and how much is physical. The hardest part of being a QB is the processing power...step, step, read 1, read 2, scramble, read 3, back to read 1...throw. All that happens in less than 3 seconds and it has to be overwhelming since in college, you had 4, 5, 6 seconds or more to do the same job.

I think we'll see a "better" Tua in 2022. How much better, I have no idea...but I do think he'll be more of a complete QB. I do agree with you that he has a fairly low physical ceiling for an NFL starter. I'm just really hoping he can overcome a good part of that on the mental side.

Anyway, if you guys get a chance, watch that Bradshaw piece on HBO....it's just a one-episode special that's maybe 90 minutes long. I felt like there were tons of insight in there just on being an NFL QB in general.

 

I thought the same thing when I caught that. He calls out owners, GMs, etc. but says Tua was respectful and a hard worker? Why on Earth would he say that if he didn't believe it was the truth?

 

I'll make sure to watch it, thanks. I do think Tua can get better, I just think his cieling is fairly low as you said.

I think it's not just that he doesn't see NFL open, I think it's also he himself knows his limitations, and doesn't have the confidence in his arm to make those more difficult throws downfield.

The way Tua plays you can tell he goes out if his way to compensate for his lack of arm strength by relying more on anticipation and placement, and he's wary of pulling the trigger on the more difficult throws.

 

Exactly, Flores real problem was not with Tua, it was with Grier and Ross.

 

I don't think he knows what a quarterback/coach relationship should be.

 

Aren't you the guy who is always crying about Tannehill getting traded and how the dolphins should have kept him?

 

Big difference though is Tannehill WAS a Miami Dolphin before he wasn’t.

Herbert never was
a Dolphin. Your whining logic suggests you should be crying over the Dolphins never having Brady, Brees, Ryan, etc…

Get over it already. One player is not the TEAM. Instead of crying over what we don’t have, put focus on what we need to make what we already have in place better!

Tannehill naysayers were ecstatic when he was traded to Nashville. Three years later, that same quarterback has been to the playoffs 3 years in a row while the Dolphins still remain stuck in Suckville…so quarterback was obviously NOT the problem nor is it now.

 

Nope, not a difference. He plays for another team. Let it go. Or, is it ok for you to ***** about something that you don't agree with but not ok for others to do the same? So unless you're gonna stop crying about Tannehill, I'll keep on talking about Herbert

 

Yeah 3 years later the Tannehill naysayers were proven right. In all 3 years Tannehill was one of the main reasons the Titans couldn't progress in the playoffs. And 2021 was the most obvious year: he was the primary reason for their failure. The rest of the team was as good as any other in the playoffs, but Tannehill lost it for them WITH a 1st round bye. The guy can't overcome adversity.

The leash on Tua has to be short. Don't make the same mistake as with Tannehill, keeping him longer than 3 years. If Tua doesn't have a ~100 rating this year you go find a new QB. Never settle for an average or slightly above average QB.

 

Do you hear me CONTINOUSLY crying about Tannehill? The only time I bring him up is when you guys gripe about quarterback…or when the Tannehill thread was in its heyday.

 

No, the Tannehill naysayers were proven wrong. Pre-Tannehill, the Titans were 9-7, 9-7, 9-7, 3-13 with no playoff appearances. Once Tannehill became the starter, they’ve been to the playoffs every year since.

The last time the Dolphins were in the playoffs were…oh yea, when Tannehill was our quarterback…despite the front office being the dysfunctional mess that it is.

And no one can convince me that Tagovailoa couldn’t have won at least one of those four games Brissett lost to get us into the playoffs.

Quarterback is NOT THE problem on this team. Tagovailoa is more than capable. It’s about 7 or 8 of the other offensive players that are the problem…along with a GM and owner that are clueless.

 

Is the goal to make the playoffs or is the goal to win the SB? Answer that first. If the goal is to win the SB, then as I've pointed out for many years you need a QB that plays at z-score of 1 or better in that year (Tannehill proved he can do that) and can demonstrate he can "carry the team" often enough, i.e., play really well when the rest of the team doesn't because you'll need that in the playoffs. Tannehill has proved he cannot do that.

If the goal is to win the SB (and that IS the goal) then Tannehill IS the problem for the Titans. Reading Titans boards a large percentage of Titans fans now agree. I mean Tannehill is the reason they didn't go deep in the playoffs this year. Everything else was in place but QB.

So yes QB was a problem while Tannehill was here for the Dolphins, and QB is currently the one and only problem for the Titans. Tannehill naysayers were definitely proven right.

As far as Tua? I give him one more year to prove otherwise, but that's 2 years in a row he couldn't overcome adversity, especially this year in a near-playoff situation. I really hope McDaniel shows Tua isn't the problem, but right now I'm leaning more towards saying he is rather than he isn't. One more year. That's it.

 

That's sort of a "chicken or the egg" scenario since you can't win the Super Bowl without making the playoffs. But even so, the playoffs is the 1st goal when you're not making either.

He won 8 of his last 9 games. Saying he couldn't overcome adversity is a little silly.

 

It's not chicken or egg. In 3-4 playoff games you'll almost be forced to overcome adversity because of the strength of your opponents. That's not true during the regular season. Again, the Titans had a complete team, no holes.. except Tannehill.

Tua's play against Tennessee was a real eye opener. That was a near-playoff game, a must-win game and he dropped the ball. Like I said I'll give him another year to prove otherwise, but he played bad last year at the end when it counted most.

 

So by that logic, it's Burrow's fault his team didn't win the Super Bowl? Or does the offense in general share some of the blame? Because like Tannehill, he had a playoff-ready team and three solid receivers.

By the standard you just set, Burrow can't overcome adversity so he can't possibly win a super bowl for his team. Then again, neither can 30 other starting QBs in the NFL.

Aren't you always telling us to look at the season, not one individual game? Tua was above average for the majority of the year and then had a few tough games down the stretch (several of which, we won). So I'll point back to my last response; is that 100% on Tua or does the offense share some of that blame?

Tua did not have the tools Burrow had this year, plus he had a worse line and got sacked much less.

 

Cinci is nothing like Tennessee. Like I said, Tennessee truly had a complete team otherwise. There were no holes in that team except Tannehill. You saw what happened in that playoff game. Clearly the lions share of the blame falls on Tannehill.

Cinci has a lot of holes to fill, including the OL as we've talked about. So blame has to be distributed across many. Burrow has relatively little blame in comparison. He prove multiple times he can overcome deficits, but you can't expect that every time.

Looking at the entire season Tua was average. And next season he needs to be near that z-score of 1. As far as the Tennessee game sure blame can be distributed, but no question a large share of it was on Tua.

 

Quit confusing everyone with facts and logic. Hyperbole is more relevant than anything Key…

Geesh

 

There was nothing logical about Key's argument, and it was full of attempted hyberbole (i.e., creating a strawman).

Saying you'll almost certainly need to overcome adversity in the playoffs does not "logically" imply that every QB that didn't win the SB can't overcome adversity. No logic there. And saying Tua played bad against Tennessee does not somehow imply he was "100% at fault". Key's arguments weren't based on logic and were instead an attempt to create a strawman. Happens a lot in arguments I get in around here.

 

The overcoming adversity in the playoffs stuff was your criteria, not mine. I simply gave a fact. By those standards, 31 starting QB's can't overcome adversity.

 

Nope. I said the QB has to be able to overcome adversity "often enough", not "always". Acting like I said always is a strawman, especially since I've been saying the same thing for years.