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Tua is not the Problem

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.

  1. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    I get it. But, it's the first stat they show for a quarterback every game. Career record or record vs the opposing team.

    We all get happy when they show Brady's record vs the Dolphins. There's a little something to it.
     
  2. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Again, all I'm saying is, if you believe that Tua was the main factor in that college production, then we're on opposite ends of the spectrum.
     
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  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It’s a team sport.

    Good Qb is like a good point guard.defense is strong, special teams, good coaching, good play calling, mindset, mental toughness, who plays harder, luck, turnovers..lot of factors in determining an outcome
     
  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Dude why don’t you give this new team with new coaches a ****ingb chance, fear of the past is controlling your brain and making you forgot how the game is played

    Everyone has it in them to be a fan…

    Tua played with the worst line and protection in the game, true or false?

    Tua played with running backs who had the lowest YPC in football, true or false?’

    Tua played with a unit of receivers that had a ****ing rookie lead them in everything, true or false?

    Tua had a head coach who hired a coordinator who didn’t have a clue as to designing an offense that was condusive to his skill set, true or false ?

    Tua had to play under very unusual circumstances when it came to his front office and their pursuit of another qb, true or false?

    Tua was not physically ready to play in his rookie year coming off that injury, true or false?

    Tua while learning the position at this level has been dealing with an insubordinate head coach?
     
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  5. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Haha! Dude, save it.
    Everyone has it in them to be a fan??
    Are you serious??
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2022
  6. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    Those are nothing more than excuses.
     
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  7. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Guys, some of you have already been warned and apparently refuse to listen. It doesn't matter how passionately you feel about Tua, Herbert, and any apparent idiocy in someone else's posts, INSULTS AND NAME CALLING are not permitted and will not be tolerated.
    I might not catch every single instance but you can be sure I'm tired of cleaning up petty posts. Keep it up and you're going to walking yourselves into short vacations from the forum.

    Seriously. Some of you guys really need to evaluate your approach to how you interact here. If you value these forums at all and want to continue posting here then you need to do put in some hard effort to change your approach. Exercise some discipline and as always, focus on the posts and not the poster. If you don't know what that means, here's an example, if you're typing out a post and you find the urge to add that someone here is an idiot, or a fool, ******ed etc. you're crossing the line. Focus on what is being said, not on who is saying it.
    *****************************************
     
  8. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    It's called context. amusing how so many fans just don't get it. No one (hopefully) is claiming Tua is a Tier 1 QB. He's a system QB that can be a very successful Tier 2 QB when that system is built around him - same for every QB that isn't in that elite bin. Think of Drew Brees before he joined S Payton and they built a system around Brees' strengths. I'm not saying Tua's ceiling is Brees, but they do have similar limitations and strengths.
     
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  9. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    you definitely don't need elite talent at QB to win the SB, but it does help. TO win a SB, you need good QB play and great defense.
     
  10. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    For me, even more simply than this, what Tua is or can be is still to be decided. I just don't know what the reality is with Tua because I see that he definitely has talent and ability in various areas, and the team has been in a horrendous situation. As such, it makes the most sense, IMO, to watch and wait to see what happens. I think that makes the most sense because not only have there been the OL, WR and other on-field issues, but he's had to deal with repeatedly different OC's and a coaching situation that for whatever behind-the-scenes reasons got dumped leading to more Dolphins scandals, not to mention the fact that right now, there aren't any better, obvious QB options.

    What I don't get, and what's frustrating, is those commentators and fans who go beyond uncertainty and wait-and-see and are already certain Tua can't play and issue superlatives about how bad he is.
     
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  11. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    The problem is people DO seem to believe he is a tier 1 QB.
     
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  12. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Galant, NO ONE s saying that Tua can't play. I myself have repeatedly says u expect Tua to have a decent career.

    When you misrepresent the other side, who by the way is constantly trolled on here, while also warning those of us sick of being trolled, it's a little much.
     
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  13. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Are you sure that no-one is saying it? Because there are people saying that. There's an incredibly level of negativity about Tua so much so that even the upcoming season is talked about in fatalistic terms - it's already over before it's begun.

    People can, of course, have doubts about Tua and feel that the Dolphins can't win a championship with him, but even if that's true, what else are the team supposed to do at this moment in time? Then of course, the team has had other issues and resolving those is as important as resolving any QB issues. With a new HC and offensive staff, new roster investments, and a new scheme, it's going to be an interesting season to see what we have, in Tua and elsewhere.

    And if no-one here is saying that Tua is a failure, is there anyone here saying that Tua is the man? Because people on the other side of this haven't been saying that, they've been saying, as far as I've seen, that they want to see what Tua can do, and are looking forward to this season.
     
  14. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    So we drafted a system QB, not a tier 1 QB, with the number 5 pick. That's my issue with tua. I wouldnt care if we would have drafted him in the 2nd or 3rd round but we wasted a pick on him when we could have had a pro bowl QB instead. I'm more upset with this team making the wrong choice again more so than I am with tuas play
     
  15. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    Dwelling on his draft position at this point is just silly. Yes, we overdrafted him, that's what happens with most QBs. I do get that Herbert is the better QB and how that is frustrating, but it's water under the bridge. THe only thing that matters is that we properly evaluate Tua this year (which we absolutely have not done the last two years) by actually putting the right system in place for him to succeed. If he's not going to thrive in MM's system, then we should move on and grab a QB in 2023.

    and people act like you can't get to a superbowl with a system QB. Brees is a HOFer, but is clearly a system QB. Garapolo is a much crappier system QB, but they still made it to a SB and almost a 2nd. there are very few elite QBs in NFL. We don't have one, but we have one that can be successful.
     
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  16. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    I'm dwelling more on this team once again making the wrong choice. If this was the first time, I probably wouldn't be so pissed about it but this has been going on for years. Right now, with the team we have now, with Herbert, we'd be a serious threat in the AFC. If tua fails again this year, we have to waste two valuable draft picks (most likely) to get a franchise QB, because we will probably have to trade for one. We've got Hill but I think it's a waste with Tua. Just like Ricky Williams was wasted because of fiedler
     
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  17. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    well, Herbert has yet to make his team a serious threat in AFC. I think your evaluation of Hill's impact - being a waste with Tua - is completely wrong. I would agree with it if we still had the coaching staff from last season. MM's offense is set up for the short-intermediate passing game to maximize the chances of YAC. that plays to Tua's strengths. But, you also need a good Oline to give those plays time to develop. We've partially addressed the latter issue on left side of the line. We'll see if our new coaching staff can teach up the right side of the line.
     
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  18. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think anyone here thinks that or is saying that. Personally, I think he's a young QB coming from a powerhouse college team and he got off to a lousy start in the NFL due to his surroundings.

    Notice I didn't say a single thing about his "talent", because we haven't seen enough to comment there. He gets rid of the ball quickly. He throws accurately. That's all we really know as "proven" at this point because of the rest of the offense. I think the vast majority here are neutral on Tua, or maybe leaning slightly towards the positive side because he's our quarterback. But nobody is saying he's an all-pro, they're just saying he isn't the bum a few people are making him out to be.

    This has gone on for page after page. One person says he sucks, so the next guy says he doesn't suck. Then somebody posts a stat and someone else calls that stat a lie. On and on and on. Then someone points out something he does well, and the entire thing resets.

    All we really know so far is that he's slightly below NFL average in a bad offense. That doesn't tell any of us anything...the fans or the detractors. There's no proof there either way. The fans say, "If he can do that in a lousy offense, he has potential to be pretty darn good." And that's a fact...he has THE POTENTIAL to do that. That's all anyone is saying here.

    Detractors are saying that Tua has already proven that he's a bust. That's not a fact. He has the potential to bust, sure, but we're not at that point yet. Then there's the commentary around, "Tua can't <whatever>." Those folks are generally right, he couldn't do that in a lousy offense. But that doesn't mean he can't get there without all the dysfunction around him.

    Tua is our QB1, for better or for worse, and we'll see him this year in a pretty solid offense. He will be above average or he won't, and I think this season will be the one his career hinges on. But folks, we have to stop arguing over the semantics here. I want Tua to succeed because he's our starter. I wanted Fitz, Tannehill, Moore, Brissett, Cutler, etc. to succeed as well.

    He will have success or he won't, but that doesn't reflect on any of us. We didn't draft the kid and we're not the ones training him. So please guys, let's tone this down.

    FYI, this certainly isn't directed at you Resnor, we disagree at times but we're also friends here. I respect the heck out of you.
     
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  19. Fireland

    Fireland Well-Known Member

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    It is very unfortunate that they didn't take Herbert but at some point you guys got to get over it
     
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  20. StaleTacos

    StaleTacos Active Member

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    That's assuming they still have them after the Ross investigation. If Tua fails, and the NFL takes them away, then what?
     
  21. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    [​IMG]

    This is all just venting, right?
     
  22. Galant

    Galant Love - Unity - Sacrifice - Eternity

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    Here's the take on Tua that I think most Tua 'supporters' are advocating:

    "Not a finished product yet. Still things that he needs to slow down. Needs to see the big picture a little bit better. Sometimes that pressure, as I've seen a lot of young quarterbacks, even really good quarterbacks in this league, that struggle with the pressure and really knowing how to get the ball out of their hands, something Tua has to do better. But, when he knows what he's doing, when he's comfortable with what they're doing offensively, you're seeing a lot of good things. And to me, key is back - ball out of his hands, back - make a read, ball out of his hands. And then the accuracy; new coming out of college he had a chance to be really, really accurate, especially on those short to mid-range throws - exactly what you're seeing at this level. Better at processing. Being able to have a plan when people are bringing pressure. And then the last thing is being able to push the ball downfield, and the confidence to attack down the field. Those are the, to me, the next steps that Tua needs to make to become that franchise guy." -Kurt Warner.
    It's a take that recognises the criticisms people are making about Tua but which frames it in a context of growth. Kurt here doesn't see this as the end of the road for Tua, he speaks with the possibility of growth in mind. That's what some people are missing. It seems like many people expect to see a finished product very quickly, and that if it doesn't happen upfront it never can. Yet there are many who reject that idea and believe that growth can happen - thought it's not guaranteed.

    For my part, if Tua does continue to grow and become a franchise QB, it will be because of two traits he's shown since high-school.
    1 - Tua has had a strong work ethic and he's teachable. He has repeatedly shown openness to learn and he's gone away and done the work and come back better. People have commented on this in a remarkable way. So he learns. He's not always good right away, but he learns, erases those weaknesses and becomes good.
    2 - I believe Tua takes his time to learn. I believe he's a quick processor but it takes him a while to settle. I don't think his mind is the quickest in terms of instantly picking up concepts etc. However, once he has had time to grasp things and let that knowledge settle, he is super quick in operating with that knowledge. In other words, he has a longer learning curve than some, but once there, he operates at a high level in terms of seeing things, being creative and making throws.

    For those two reasons, his ability to learn and adapt, and his longer learning curve but proficiency once settled (in additional to his other talented traits) I think we will see Tua improve. I don't know how much, but I believe Tua can be a good franchise QB.
     
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  23. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    If an asteroid hits and the world ends, then what? It's just about as likely.
     
  24. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    I'm tryin' man, but it's really hard to do!!
     
  25. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    I think the key point is this frustration is directed at Grier more so than Tua. Can’t blame Tua for where he was picked. He’s doing everything he can to be the best player he can.

    But a GM that missed on a franchise QB and followed it up with 2 first rounds busts in the same draft isn’t going to cut it.

    We can go round and round on whether it’s talent around him or that he’s small/can’t stay healthy/has enough arm strength. I just think most of the Tua dissenters really have more of an issue of Grier being in charge.
     
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  26. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Here is the Tua hater/Herbert gobblers in a nutshell:

    "Tua has to do it by himself to be elite no matter what, that's what elite quarterbacks do!"

    "Justin Herbert is elite and can go toe to toe with anyone!"

    Justin Herbert hasn't made the playoffs.

    "Justin Herbert's defense and coaching suck!"

    Hypocritical much?
     
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  27. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly this, I have nothing against Tua. My problem is with Grier, he is dead to me. There is nothing he can do at this point short of winning a super bowl that can make up for the titanic failure of passing on Herbert and picking Tua, Jackson, and Iggy in the first round of the 2020 draft.

    The fact Grier is still in his position after that and the Flores fiasco is unacceptable to me. I won't be happy until Grier is gone.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2022
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  28. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    No one ever said elite QBs have to do everything by themselves. However, they also don't need everything to be perfect around them and be surrounded with superstars. They can elevate their teams play instead of playing to whatever level the team is at.
     
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  29. JJ_79

    JJ_79 Well-Known Member

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    True that, but we got Tua at least for another year and if he becomes a Drew Brees or Steve Young type and stays healthy (which is the biggest nock on him imo), I would be fine with that and it would be the best thing the Dolphins ever had besides Dan the man.
     
  30. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    And, Herbert's record as the starting quarterback is under .500 and he hasn't made the playoffs. Obviously, he might need everything to be perfect around him too.
     
  31. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    No, Herbert has already proven he can play great even with adversity and bad surroundings. He had the worst oline in the league in 2020 and still won ROY. Tua has not been able to overcome adversity. He plays to whatever level the team is at. Most of the games we've won with Tua have been won by the defense, not by Tua.

    Herbert on the other hand has been the main factor in the Chargers wins the last two years.
     
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  32. canesz06

    canesz06 Well-Known Member

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    Schitts creek sans paddle?
     
  33. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Tua not being able to overcome any adversity is probably the understatement of the century.
     
  34. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    In terms of his actual play on the field, no, he has not been able to rise above the adversity so far. Sorry to say it, have nothing against Tua, but that is just the truth.
     
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  35. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    He was breaking records at one point during the season and came one win short of the playoffs. That's the truth. Not someone arbitrarily saying he can't overcome adversity.
     
  36. hitman8

    hitman8 Well-Known Member

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    Lol, be serious man. Breaking records for what, number of consecutive five yard passes? The wins we got last year were because of the defense, not because of Tua.
     
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  37. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    There's the five yard pass argument. The dumbest comeback for Tua haters.
     
  38. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Would I fall into the camp of detractors? Lol. I don't think anyone posting on the site is saying he's a bust. I got rid of tv years ago, so I don't have a clue what the pundits are saying.

    I hope Tua is good though to win it all with the right team. I just wonder if we'll ever be able to build that team. So let's just say that Tua has a decent career in Miami, but never wins the Super Bowl. Would that be worth it? I dunno...but I think that a real possibility.
     
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  39. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    This is where we have to be at.

    Whining about Justin Herbert or drafting the next Dan Marino has to stop.
     
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  40. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Believe it or not, most of the "talking heads" are very pro-Tua at the moment. Their two favorite phrases are "He's the best RPO quarterback in the league" and "He's the most accurate QB in the league with one of the fastest release times." Lately, a few have been quoting "He has the best deep ball in the league" ever since that accuracy stat came out recently. It's pretty comical. There are a few that feel like he's a bust, but they're in the minority. Ex-players are generally pro-Tua as well.

    Yeah, I think you'd fall into the anti-Tua camp, LOL. Not that you want him to fail, of course.

    For the Super Bowl question, I don't know how to answer that. We loved Marino even though he never got a ring. But at the same time, you could almost always count on double-digit wins with him at the helm. I think I'd take that even though it feels like a lousy deal.
     

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