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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Galant, Nov 6, 2021.
I don't think you're anti-Tua. As I've said before, if Tua was another team's QB, I wouldn't care one way or the other, so I can't be considered to be pro-Tua. My point has always been that running for your life and still managing to be average is not a reason to suggest somebody is trash. Put a QB in a situation where he SHOULD succeed and if it doesn't happen, he's the problem. Put him behind a historically awful OL and the jury is out. For some of us, that is common sense. For others, it's an excuse. That's the difference between you and me.
I've said several times that we're all entitled to our opinions and mine is no more right than anybody else's. I was accused of being a patronizer and of being passively aggressive, but I'll say it again. But I stand behind what I said.
See, almost all your post I liked...but you had to say things like "...to suggest someone is trash" as you're responding to me. Please, PLEASE find one instance of me saying Tua is trash. I've REPEATEDLY said that I believe Tua, barring injury, will have a decent career. He's Ted Ginn 2.0. so I guess that's me saying he's trash? I mean, I guess you think Tua is an All-Pro or something?
Stats are twisted and used out of context in pretty much every article or video you'll watch, because they're almost all made by people trying to prove a point.
Like I said, I hope those stats are indicative that with an improved offense, physical gains through training, and finally being healthy, that will see him actually do those things at a higher rate, and our offense is dynamic and effective. I don't see how that isn't a reasonable position to hold.
My apologies. In my mind, I was referring to Tua detractors in a general sense, not about you specifically. This is not the only forum where I discuss the Dolphins and in almost all of them, if anything positive is said about him, five immediate replies are made about how bad he really is. I will try harder to recognize the different levels of resistance and try to generalize less.
I sincerely apologize for throwing that shot in your direction and I'll try to be better.
Thanks man, no worries!
We both want this team to be a team we can proudly root for.
"You don't say that about Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes" is such a stupid point given that Josh Allen made a big leap when they gave him Diggs and Mahomes always had weapons.
Check out this cast of commentators.
I’m going to preface what I’m about to say with IF Mike McDaniel is indeed the real deal…
I can honestly see Tagovailoa this season having the type of season Tannehill had his first season with the Titans.
IF McDaniel is able to make the Dolphins a serious threat with the run game, and the speed we have with Hill and Waddle as well as Gisecki running the seam, we’re going to see some explosive play action pass plays. All of the pieces are there…though I still worry about the RT protecting Tua’s blindside.
Again…IF McDaniel is the real thing.
The thing about McDaniel is that he's from Kyle Shanahan's tree. Shanahan's success leans heavily on his ability to feel the game. He'll have several plays with the same set and if he has success with one in the first half, he'll show it again late and run something completely different to throw the defense off balance. McVay and LaFleur both utilize this in their games; it's why LaFleur didn't want Rodgers to audible and caused a stir early in their relationship. If Rodgers changed to a better play, it would possibly ruin the changeup later.
Will McDaniel have that feel? Will he have the understanding that Shanahan spent years developing? And, how much control will he give Tua, who said that he didn't understand the plays well enough to audible in his first season? McDaniel's the wildcard that will determine how well we start and finish. Coming in with no playcalling experience is probably my biggest concern behind how well the OL plays. Even more than Tua's ability to play well in his system.
This thread is long and tends to go in circles...
The overall premise Tua may not be the problem but he isn't the solution
He's not a problem that is causing them to lose game after game after game.
But he also isn't a solution that will carry a team like Mahomes or Allen can.
May the circle be unbroken.
The new additions will make zero difference.
Care to elaborate and quantify your statement or are you just being a Debbie downer?
Armstead is a broken down left tackle. Mostert is a broken down running back and Chase Edmonds is a third down scatback. Tyreek Hill is someone I don’t trust, reminds me of Mike Wallace. I expect him to whine and complain all season long.
For us to have success Armstead and Mostert are going to have to stay healthy, Teddy B will have to stay healthy as well because I personally see him starting more games than Tua this season.
From cbssports.com's article about third year QBs and their prospects in 2022:
Dolphins QB Tua Tagovailoa
MIA • QB • 1
How he's improved
How about this for a stat -- Tagovailoa led qualifying quarterbacks with a 55.2% adjusted completion percentage on throws made 20-plus yards in 2021. Not joking.
Now, he only attempted that long of a pass on 7.5% of his throws, the second-lowest rate in the league, but an encouraging stat nonetheless for the polarizing young quarterback.
If you ask me, no team did more to help their quarterback and improve his support-cast environment this offseason than the Dolphins. Tyreek Hill, Terron Armstead, Connor Williams, Cedrick Wilson, Chase Edmonds and Raheem Mostert in the backfield, and Mike McDaniel, a Kyle Shanahan protege, as the new head coach.
Tagovailoa has been squarely placed in a no-excuse scenario, and the Dolphins are suddenly explosive and decently deep offensively, plus the offensive line will be better.
Improving his weaknesses
From a clean pocket last season, Tagovailoa's yards-per-attempt average of 6.9% ranked 28th among qualifiers. His big-time throw rate in those scenarios was a minuscule 1.3%, the fifth-lowest in football, only ahead of Jacoby Brissett, Tyler Huntley, Mike Glennon, and Andy Dalton. Woof.
More so than anything else, the former Crimson Tide star needs to be drastically more productive from a clean pocket. That's where the elite quarterbacks separate themselves from the good and great ones.
Strengthening his strengths
Not known for his arm talent, even as a prospect, Tagovailoa's deep-ball accuracy can't be ignored. In college, he dropped many gorgeous throws in the bucket to the likes of Jerry Jeudy and Co. and proved a season ago the ball-placement he showcased in college hasn't vanished.
With Hill and Waddle at his disposal, the Dolphins need to not only stretch defenses horizontally but vertically, much more frequently than they have in Tagovailoa's first two seasons in the NFL.
Tagovailoa is such a complicated case study. He was surgical at Alabama but hardly got touched in the pocket and threw to four future first-round picks at receiver and handed the ball to a pair of future first-round running backs. Was it him or the environment that got him drafted No. 5 overall?
Since joining the Dolphins, he's had mostly the opposite environment and has been a disappointment, no question about it. Plus, he's not remotely close to being the physical specimen of most of the other budding young star quarterbacks in the league.
His situation has been vastly improved, and that will undoubtedly boost his productivity. But in today's NFL, a coach -- even a supposedly brilliant one like McDaniel -- can only scheme receivers open so much. Tagovailoa remaining the starter or losing the gig after this season will hinge upon his ability to make challenging throws. I haven't seen him do that with much regularity to date, and his limited arm and mobility indicate to me he's never going to be that type of quarterback in the NFL.
Totally agree with the final paragraph.
The whole thing is a fair summary about an unfair environment. For example, the stat on clean pocket success rate- the pocket was almost never clean, making it more of a surprise play than a predictable result. Our offensive scheme was essentially having Tua run for his life and throw as fast as possible....the pocket staying clean for 2.1 seconds really has no impact on the play. Much different than seeing Rodgers stand in a clean pocket for 4.5 seconds and taking shots.
I try not to be negative on Tua because he's been screwed from the start, but I do agree with the author's comments that Tua played in a top-3 pro offense on the college level at Alabama (Clemson and LSU would be my other top-2 that final 2019 season). Seriously, that Alabama class could probably beat most pro teams today if you put all 11 back together. That will always be a testament and a curse to Tua's abilities and it's why I was so against drafting him- we just don't know since we didn't see the magic like we did from Burrow or Lawrence. They were earning the vast majority of their points while Tua just sort of hung out in a clean pocket and picked teams apart.
The other thing I agree with is that this should be Tua's final "unknown year"...either he'll take a big step up or he's likely headed for a backup role. As I've always said, I'm hoping for him to succeed since that's the best thing for our team. But this will probably be my final year of blindly giving him the benefit of the doubt.
However, I'll also throw in a "worst case scenario" caveat. If the line is plagued by injury and we can't develop a running game (also due to injury), this will be a long, sad season for Tua that's filled with disappointment. I'm really hoping that doesn't happen because we still won't know what we have. Personally, I don't want another year saying "Go Titans" in the playoffs...this really could be Miami's year and I'm hoping it all comes together.
That is exactly what Burrow did.
He has two of the best wide receivers in the league in college and then went to a team where that best wide receiver started out as the 3rd wide receiver.
I do agree that they both had amazing talent, but Tua wasn't fighting to get the ball to receivers like Burrow was. He'd often get laid out by a defender in order to stand in the pocket and deliver- that just wasn't the case w/ Tua.
Tua went from a fully clean pocket to almost no pocket at all- that's a massive adjustment. Burrow went from a semi-clean pocket to no pocket at all, and he paid the price for it as well. Similar lousy situations, but at least Burrow had some experience executing like that. LSU was nowhere near as stacked as Bama from top to bottom...they just had the better quarterback.
I do not agree with your statement. At least at the skill positions, they were pretty comparable. Jefferson is one of the best wide receivers in the NFL and Chase is looking to be one. Both were on stacked teams that were massively talented.
Also Tua's pocket presence is head and shoulders over Burrow in the NFL.
Eh, mcdaniel could be the real deal and Tua can be an average quarterback at the same time.
We will have the Tua question answered by January. This is it for him.
Two quarterbacks are on the hotseat after their teams invested heavily in the offseason for their success. Hurts and Tua.
This is it for them, if they cant produce like an elite level quarterback would with the weapons they have, thats a wrap as far as being a franchise quarterback goes.
and i mean real production that leads to winning, dont give me misleading Carson Wentz numbers and think you can hide behind that. Irsay saw through that bull**** and cut his losses. He was not going to let the stats fool him.
Reports are the Dolphins could be making a move to acquire Jimmy Garoppolo.
We have our starter.
We have a veteran backup.
We have a developmental QB.
We have no known injury concerns at the position.
The only reason to acquire Garropolo is if we intend to cut Tua or Bridgewater..
This seems to be more about click generation based on connections between Garropolo and McDaniels than actual inside information.
Yep. My concerns all along.
An un-named exec said:
“I know this,” The executive says. “Jimmy G is way more liked in league circles, as a player, than Tua is. He’s accomplished way more, and that matters at that position, almost more than anything else. And, remember, Mike McDaniel knows Jimmy really well.”
“With a new head coach, all he cares about is winning and winning now,” the executive says. “He could be looking at Tua, shaking his head and saying ‘eh, I don’t know.’ Maybe he loves him … But, if he hasn’t seen enough from him during workouts or OTAs, this is his honeymoon with that ownership and front office, make the deal now.”
So all a bunch of BS.
It's a move to improve the market for Jimmy G. Nothing more.
This just seems weak to me. A banner waved too much and in tatters. It's easy to be negative and say he's just a guy. Most players in this league end up as jags. There's no great insight or courage there. Of course, it being the common line doesn't make it wrong. The reason I don't like this particular way of making the argument is that it's just wrong - or poorly phrased.
"But in today's NFL, a coach -- even a supposedly brilliant one like McDaniel -- can only scheme receivers open so much. Tagovailoa remaining the starter or losing the gig after this season will hinge upon his ability to make challenging throws. I haven't seen him do that with much regularity to date, and his limited arm and mobility indicate to me he's never going to be that type of quarterback in the NFL."
1. "a coach...can only scheme receivers open so much." Is this point supposed to imply that Tua wasn't throwing to tightly covered receivers, or that he needs open receivers to be any good? Is the author aware that Miami's receivers last year were at the bottom of the league in terms of separation? Tua had the league's highest percentage of throws into tight spaces. If Tua was making passes last year he was proving he can pass into tight windows - because he had to. Whether that was the coach's fault for not scheming them open, or the faults of the receivers themselves, Tua didn't show laziness or lack of skill in tight passes. And do the other QB's in the league not benefit from having open receivers, is it just Tua? This is weak, weak analysis, and it has the smell of someone who is just emoting, not analysing.
2. "Tagovailoa remaining the starter or losing the gig after this season will hinge upon..." - Okay, so far so good, yes, Tua will have to prove himself worthy of being a franchise QB, but what will it hinge upon, "...his ability to make challenging throws." What? See above. Tua made more challenging throws than anyone else in terms of tight window passes. The RPO game might be short but it also requires super quick decision making. And he had a porous offensive line - historically bad at times. Are those not challenging throws? Or does he mean 'deep' throws? If so, he should say so. But 'challenging' throws?
3. "I haven't seen him do that with much regularity to date, and his limited arm and mobility..." So either this guy hasn't been paying attention to what's been going on or he's got something in mind and he's not making it clear. And mobility? Okay, Tua's not the fastest guy in the league but seriously - are we going to this degree to nitpick? You know who else is not very mobile? Tom Brady. Aaron Rodgers. Joe Burrow. Most QBs. Since when did being a fast sprinting QB become a pre-requisite for success? You what else? Tua might not be the fastest runner but he definitively proved himself to be a very elusive QB. He PROVED himself to have great pocket awareness, nimble, able to move around, to keep his eyes down field, and make throws, and also to run in such a way as to gain more yards than he had a right to. There were runs made by Tua that were amazingly good. Would it be nice to have a QB with a faster running speed? Sure. Where is that on the QB skills shopping list? Quite a way down, in the 'nice to have but not essential' section. You know what were screaming for with Tannehill - more pocket presence please! What do we have with Tua - excellent pocket presence. Are we happy? No. It's mentioned as an after-thought or in passing. "Tua has good pocket presence but..." Geez. Limited mobility? It sounds like he's describing a guy in a wheelchair. You can say a lot things in questioning Tua but limited mobility? Really? Come on dude.
4. "...he's never going to be that type of quarterback in the NFL." What type of QB is that? A QB with a strong arm and tons of mobility who can make 'challenging' throws? Isn't that a truism. Of course Tua isn't going to miraculously become a strong-armed speedster. Is that what we're talking about here? Tua isn't the model QB I prefer so I'm out? If that's what this is then... whatever floats your boat sir... or sinks it. Me, I want to see what Tua can do. He was a risky but promising pick who came from an horrific injury into rehab, who wasn't the biggest but showed accuracy, skill, quick decision making, and great feet. It was never going to be a first year firework show with Tua. Not even second year. Not to mention joining a franchise mired in controversy and scandal. His first HC files a lawsuit against the NFL? The ownership, management and coaching are in active dispute during the season? What a mess Miami has been. Tua has had the deck stacked against him. Maybe he won't ever be the guy, maybe some people are just in love with prototypical QB's and can't be happy with anything else. Maybe too many of us are just jaded after years of failure. Whatever the case, I'm hopefully we can at least field an average team this year and finally see what this man can do with his opportunity, and going to try to live in the present and enjoy it all the way.
Several months ago, I told y'all my thoughts about him: I didn't think he was the problem on the team in 2021, but I also didn't (and still don't) know if he is the answer. For me, the question is less about his floor than his ceiling. I'm okay with his floor, but it's not high enough moving forward. I think we'll know what his ceiling is by the middle of October.
We're about to find out a lot about Tua and the Dolphins. All I will add at this point is that #1 got smeared against the Bills in the second game and when he came back, he played fairly well while engaged in self-preservation mode. That tells me that he didn't leave his health and safety up to his unwieldy line but still didn't play like he was afraid for his life like many young QBs do when they're thrown to the wolves. I will give the coaches credit for keeping him alive.
That point hasn't been lost on me- Tannehill was the ultimate quarterback...except for that darn pocket presence. Now we have an elite pocket passer with outstanding pocket presence and everyone's pissed off that he can't sling it like Tannehill.
Sometimes you just can't win.
However, it should also be noted that nobody said Marino sucked because he didn't have elite speed running down the field. Why? Because we won with Marino. Only, we're winning with Tua as well...
Ok, let me point out the flaws in your logic…
First off, the left tackle is the MOST important lineman…for a RIGHT handed quarterback. The left tackle protects a RIGHT handed quarterback’s blindside. Tua is a LEFT handed quarterback so the question isn’t Armstead…it’s ultimately who plays right tackle. That’s Tagovailoa’s blind side protection.
As for Edmunds and Mostert…it’s not whether or not they are Derrick Henry’s. Not at all. It’s going to be the fact that McDaniel is goi g to run the ball. He’s going to force those defenses to respect the Dolphins rushing effort. Whether or not Edmunds or Mostert rip off multiyard gains is irrelevant. It’s the fact defenses are going to have to play the run…something that’s been missing from the Dolphins for 2 decades. That’s going to open up play action pass.
And even IF your feelings about Hill are warranted, the fact that Hill will be on the field is going to garner that respect. Between Hill,
Waddle and Gesicki, one of those 3 are going to be able to rip off a big play.
Now if you wish to dispute my summation fact based, I welcome it but a simple “the Dolphins are going to suck” is just sour grapes.
I get what you’re saying, but the ONLY stat for Tagovailoa that’s going to matter is the final score.
If Tua is just AVERAGE and the Dolphins win week after week, then don’t expect a change at quarterback. Tua IS the answer in a McDaniel offense.
If the Dolphins lose week after week, even if Tagovailoa is spectacular, I cen see him on the trading block to get something for him.
Wentz won games for Indy and he was average despite having stats. Irsay said na, youre not tricking me with the stats, youre out.
you have to look the part.
To look average with everything the dolphins did for the offense this offseason, is very telling.
and im not buying coaching change and new offense excuse either. Herbert had Lynn his first season, won ROTY, and Staley second season and was even better.
its time to show something. Take us to the playoffs. Im not even asking for a super bowl yet. I want playoffs.
By the way if theres a betting site that offers the following lines:
teddy bridgewater will be a starting quarterback in 2022 (yes/no)
teddy to start over 4 games (yes/no)
let me know i wanna become rich
The offseason discussion is fun and all, but this will be the year that we find out for sure if he should stay or not. The same Tua, a worse Tua, or even a SLIGHTLY better Tua that allows for the discussion to continue is not good enough. He either takes a large and obvious step forward (he's your guy) or he doesn't (hes not the guy)