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Tua keep or not Tua keep...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by The_Dark_Knight, Jan 5, 2021.

  1. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    That appears to be the question...

    Ok, I got the green light for a new Tua thread, but please keep this civil.
     
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  2. Destroyer

    Destroyer There for every play.

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    If Chan Gailey is still here it doesn't much matter but I've already voiced that I have seen enough of him. Even if he's good Chan Gailey will ruin him ala Mike Sherman and Tannehill.
     
  3. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    Tua keep 100000%.
    If you have any doubt of him long term, trade down the 3 overall to put yourself in position to move up in 2022's draft.

    Here are my reasons:
    Tua is one year removed from major hip surgery and is still recovering or has been instructed to play extremely conservatively as evident by how he plays when he runs for yardage and the how Gailey utilized him the first half of games.

    Practice squad or worse level of talent by the WR corp. He did fine in the rare instances where everyone was available (Williams, Parker) but once we started depending on Mack Hollins to be our primary receiving threat he was dealing with a historically bad WR corp.

    No sustainable running game to take the pressure off him. You can argue our defense made up for it but not offensively.

    3 rookie OL on an OL that was inconsistent on a weekly basis.

    Chan Gailey seemingly employed a strategy of failure the first half of most games that Tua played in, putting him difficult situations later on.

    COVID shortened training camp and no preseason for a rookie.

    Looking behind his back at Fitz who not only had a fantastic season but also won over the locker room.

    Tua has every right to come back as the unquestioned starter next year.

    The one and ONLY scenario that changes my mind is if Trevor Lawrence says I'm not playing in Jacksonville and Miami can move up to grab him. I'm not sure if I give up Tua, #3 and #18 to do so but I may consider it.
     
  4. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    Tua is the starting quarterback next season. No doubt.

    He deserves a full-offseason and a better roster on offense.
     
  5. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    I agree with just about everything you said with the exception of the offensive line. Comparing to years past, I thought overall they played quite well.
     
  6. Bumrush

    Bumrush Stable Genius Club Member

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    A pile of dung would look good compared to what Gase and Philbin had along the OL.

    Relative to that they did look good. Relative the rest of the NFL they were inconsistent at best. Tua got destroyed multiple times and our RB's were at or were close to the bottom at yards per attempt.
     
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  7. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    I would trade down regardless. The #3 pick should be highly coveted, and we can pick a top rated WR with a top 10 pick. I would only trade down to #6 or #7 just to make sure we get our first choice at WR (hopefully Chase), but whatever the case there should be a bidding war we can take advantage of.

    Anyway, with some extra talent on offense, especially at WR and RB, and a full offseason of work and study, I fully expect Tua to be an above average QB (even if only slightly) in 2021.
     
  8. mlb1399

    mlb1399 Well-Known Member

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    As much as I don’t think he’s going to develop into a franchise QB, I have a really hard time believing Miami is ready to move on from him.
     
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  9. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    If we trade down, which I’m not completely opposed to, we had better get a lot in return.

    Although it figuratively broke my heart to see certain Dolphins traded away, I was immensely impressed with the draft capital we received in the process.

    I would imagine that 3rd draft pick would be worth its weight in platinum. I’d love to be able to have two 1st round draft picks 3 years in a row.

    To quote the legendary Keith Jackson...WHOA NELLIE!!!
     
  10. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Here's the draft trade value chart that serves as a baseline:
    https://walterfootball.com/draftchart.php

    Note how valuable #3 is compared to #4, so it's good we have the #3. If we trade down to #7 or so, that's the equivalent of a low 1st rounder this year. So I anticipate any trade down will give us a 1st rounder next year (equivalent to a 2nd this year), and a 3rd rounder this year IF there's no bidding war. Other possibilities are a 1st and 2nd next year OR a 1st in 2021 and a 1st in 2022. All are of comparable value given how picks tend to be traded.

    With a bidding war that could get a lot better. I would definitely trade down, especially if we're targeting a WR with our first pick because we can get the guy we want ~5 picks later.
     
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  11. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    From the man Flores himself at his press conference.

    Tua is the starting quarterback.
     
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  12. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Yea but only if there’s a bidding war...or a team is so desperate that they’ll sell us their daughter (figuratively) for that pick.

    I don’t want to trade down for the sake of trading down. If we do, I want something spectacular for it.
     
  13. KeyFin

    KeyFin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree. If the Jets don't take a QB and Fields is on the board at #3, there will be plenty of suitors to take that pick off our hands. The only problem is, we won't get those calls until we're on the clock. I can't see a reason not to trade back unless you want to take the best LB or OT in the country...which are certainly options. But I'd rather pick closer to 7-10 with extra draft capital for good measure.
     
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  14. TheHighExhaulted

    TheHighExhaulted Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry it was Grier who said this. Tua haters you can cry from now until September.
     
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  15. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Depends on who you are targeting. If you're targeting a top WR, then you can trade down for the sake of trading down because a top WR will be available even 5 picks later. If you are targeting Penei Sewell then you can't trade down.
     
  16. Cashvillesent

    Cashvillesent Well-Known Member

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    No way is Miami giving up on him next year or the year after..

    Name me a GM that has moved on from a top 5 QB within the next 3 years? I hate to say it but even if Tua underperforms next year except the Dolphins GM to give him an extra year. Its the name of the game. Thats why busting on a QB sets your franchise down for years....
     
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  17. Alan in England

    Alan in England Member

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    if we can acquire some decent receivers , then a fair judgment can be made on Tua. Problem is the OC looks like he will still be in a job next season.
     
  18. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    I thought we started Dung under Philbin and Gase?

    We started 3 rookies half the season and 2 of them all season. These guys didn't get a proper training camp or offseason program. They still played better than the hot garbage we had in years past. I think with a proper offseason and S&C program there will be a huge improvement out of them (the rookies). I am not wild about Flowers, I thought it was telling that our best running production came with him out of the lineup and Kindley at Left Guard. I can roll with our center another year but he is marginal as well.
     
  19. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    I agree with all of this except I have a preference for Smith. I wouldn't have a fit though if they did grab Chase.
     
  20. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    Waddle's the 3rd guy that's possible. He was just cleared to practice and might play for Alabama in the title game. If he plays really well we can even drop down to #10 or so and still pick a top WR because he's also been hyped a ton, except that he's been out with an injury.

    Or, if he doesn't play well, there's a good chance he slides to #18. Can you imagine? We pick Chase (or Smith.. I'm also fine with that) AND Waddle with our 2 firsts after trading down to get another 1st rounder next year, and possibly more?

    That's almost a dream scenario but realistic. Then you pick Harris or Etienne with our 1st 2nd rounder. VERY excited with what this draft could do for this team.
     
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  21. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    That would be an unbelievable stroke of luck! It would completely remake the weapons on offense in the space of 2 days! And between Harris or Etienne I love Harris's size. He is a poor mans Henry and may be a little faster.
     
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  22. ripper1961

    ripper1961 Active Member

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    Seems Tua will be our starter next year and I am ok with that. So if we are set with our starting QB who will be our backup? Will Fitz return? Will the Dolphins want him back? I think that is a very important position to fill. As far as the draft, the possibilities are endless. Could be a very entertaining draft.
     
  23. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    I would love to have Fitz back but I don't think that's likely and perhaps not wise as a potential distraction. I think they should grab a later round QB to develop but maybe we should be looking at some experienced backups that may come available. have to look for a list a pending FA's.
     
  24. Fishhead

    Fishhead Active Member

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    Almost hoping he doesn’t play in the championship; that might enhance the possibility of a slide to #18. I was just talking about this scenario earlier at work - it would be as transformative as it would be mind boggling to get such talent in one fell swoop.
     
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  25. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    We don't have to move on from Tua. That's the good thing here. We bring in another possible franchise QB to compete. If Tua works out, we trade the other guy away in 2022. IF the other guy outplays him as a rookie, we trade Tua away in 2022.

    You don't get to pick #3 or higher very often. It won't happen with Miami's own pick as long as Flores is here (he's too good to only win 4-5 games unless you gut the team again).

    If you pass on a QB with that #3 pick, trading down for an extra 2022 first rounder for example, Miami will need to trade BOTH first rounders in 2022 plus a second and maybe even a bit more to get back to #3 or higher.

    In other words? Pay the #3 pick in 2021 for a QB, who you can trade away in 2022 for a late first or second rounder if Tua pans out. Or trade down from #3 to get an extra 2022 first; then trade that pick and Miami's own first and second rounder to get a QB in 2022. Also, 2022 looks to be a poor QB draft, compared to 2021.

    Which option costs less in draft capital? Which option maximizes Miami's chances of finding a franchise QB?
     
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  26. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    And the ones who believe he's a good quarterback will be crying from September through December.
     
  27. firedan

    firedan Well-Known Member

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    Still have to give Tua more time ,not to appease the fans but just for the investment.To soon to move on,the reality is he didn't have the players around him.
     
  28. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    Look, it's true, he had crap for WRs. That's not even up for debate. No one is saying he should have taken this team to a SB. No one is even saying we should have won more games with him. And I don't think anyone is saying we should have beat the Bills with him. But it's not a stretch at all to say that he's not the QB we thought we were getting with the fifth overall pick. He lacks the arm talent, sure, but that's not a shock to anyone who watched him play at Alabama. What's disturbing is the lack of pocket presence, the lack of decisiveness, the immediate checkdowns, the lack of a gunslinger mentality...which, to me, indicates a lack of confidence.
    I hear some people saying he could be the next Drew Brees. I would remind those people that it took YEARS for Drew Brees to become Drew Brees...and when he did, it was on another team than the one who drafted him. And my opinion is that Tua is nowhere near as heady or decisive even as a rookie Drew Brees.
    He's a mediocre QB who has the capability to become a good QB with time, certainly. Very good? Maybe. Not for several years, though. Great? I doubt it.
    If we want a great QB, we can't waste the opportunity the third overall pick gives us.
     
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  29. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    After watching Harris against Notre Dame, I actually like him a lot. Etienne gives you that very quick burst of speed and GREAT hands in receiving out of the backfield but you’re right, Harris does remind me a bit of Derrick Henry...and I want to be able to pound defenses into submission.

    Either pick I’d be happy with.
     
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  30. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Not intending to commit sacrilege here but there is something I wonder...

    What if Dan Marino his rookie season didn’t have Mark Clayton to throw to?

    What if Dan Marino his rookie season didn’t have Mark Duper to throw to?

    What if Dan Marino his rookie season didn’t have Andra Franklin or Tony Nathan to hand the ball off to?

    What if Dan Marino instead was throwing to Isiah Ford?

    What if Dan Marino instead was throwing to Lynn Bowden?

    What if Dan Marino instead was handing the ball off to Salvon Ahmed or DeAndre Washington?

    I guess everyone would have been screaming to draft Boomer Esiason...because having the chance to draft Irving Fryer would be stupid.

    This is what some of you aren’t seeing, or just being an ostrich. Who was Tagovailoa’s Clayton? Who was Tagovailoa’s Duper? Who was Tagovailoa’s Franklin? Who was Tagovailoa’s Nathan?

    Brad, you’re the stats guy. How many passes did Tagovailoa have dropped by our “elite” receiving corps?

    We have GOT to get some talent in here offensively. Otherwise it doesn’t matter who our quarterback is
     
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  31. cbrad

    cbrad . Club Member

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    We're tied for 5th worst in dropped passes at 24:
    http://hosted.stats.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232

    How many of those were with Tua specifically I don't know.

    Technically however, the total number of passes dropped by our "elite" receiving corps is zero because we do not have an "elite" receiving corps. lol.. or so a logician would say.
     
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  32. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    Therein lies a good part of the problem.
     
  33. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Terrible!Marino made his wrs!
    Hell the wrs produced when Fitz was in there!.Case in point the raiders game..
    And any idiot will tell u Fitz does not equal Marino!
     
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  34. RevRick

    RevRick Long Haired Leaping Gnome Club Member

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    Civil?!?!?!? Gadzooks! I am most ready to loose my bodkin and have away with you! 'Tis nobler to make a buffoon of the king than to make easy of the Bard. Hath thou no respect for the most honorable amongst those who find their greatest achievement in the correct construction of conversation?
     
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  35. The_Dark_Knight

    The_Dark_Knight Defender of the Truth

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    Oh bunk that! Mr Sulu, lock phasers on target :sidelol:
     
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  36. FphinFantastic

    FphinFantastic Member

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    Like it or not the Alabama system may have contributed to Tua’s success but I’m not going as far as saying he was a product of the system. Either way, we know with good weapons around him he can dominate. Go get a young powerful weapon he is familiar with. Go get Devonta Smith and create the next great receiver QB tandem of our time.
     
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  37. brandon27

    brandon27 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Well I certainly wouldn't want to bail on him after one year. Especially given the supporting cast and other circumstances this year that really limit the opportunity to develop a rookie QB. If you're going to invest the 5th overall pick into a QB you have to at least try to build something around him and give him some NFL caliber WR's to work with.

    That being said, QB is the position you absolutely have to get right. So if they arent sold on him in some way then then damn well better consider QB at #3. If you get him a weapon at #3 though; you likely instantly improve his chances.

    I think it's obvious at this point they are still all in on Tua so I think he's certainly being kept and they'll build the offense around him. The only problem with that is they appear to be still building it with Chan Gailey. To me; that's the big problem here. All that aside though, we at least need to be considering a capable QB2 on the roster. To me it's not Fitz. While he's had success for us and has been a good mentor for Tua if he has to have significant playing time then we could be in trouble when the inevitable appearance of Fitztragic shows up. I'd rather have someone that can provide some more stability there.
     
  38. Striking

    Striking Junior Member

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    I could see Tua having that second year similar to Josh Allen's third. Both had limited college experience but I feel Tua is ahead mechanically so he can have the light turn on sooner. Still not sold on him being able to physically hold up though. With that in mind, accumulating additional 1st round picks in 2022 is what I would try to do with both of our first rounders.
     
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  39. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I think Miami has to be concerned about Tua's first season and how it played out. He started out with promise and then as defense got a chance to see some tape looked just plain bad. Does a full offseason and adding weapons help him? How many successful NFL QBs do we see out there that started out bad end up good? Not many. In today's NFL the good ones impress early and stay good. That makes it confusing with Tua because we saw both this season. It's the from good to bad trend that scares me. I honestly don't know. All we can do is trust the coaches and front office.
     
  40. Tin Indian

    Tin Indian Rockin' The Bottom End Club Member

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    Over the last 25-30 years let's see, Aikman, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees and a couple others that escape me at the moment. 2 of those 3 are in the Hall as 1st ballot guys and the 3rd one will be too. So actually quite a few.
     

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