Tua..

"StaleTacos wrote:

2. He was worse because Tua didn't play a full season. So his numbers with Tua was worse than his numbers with Mahomes.

Even with the technicality you are going for he still had more yards in just the Tua games then he did with just Mahomes in 2021.

"tirty8 wrote:

I was thinking about something a few days ago while on a run: Is Tyreek the best WR in the history of the Miami Dolphins? I really think that the answer is "yes." Undoubtedly, you could say that generational talent is certainly going to make anyone throwing him the ball better - Mahomes included.

Do I think that Tua would be worse without Hill? Absolutely. Do I think Mahomes is worse without Hill? Sure. I think that ultimately it was proven that Mahomes was still elite even without Hill which was in line with my thinking.

Really, the question boils down to how much of a drop-off you think that there would be in a hypothetical universe without Hill? Do you think that the drop-off is so severe that you think that Tua is fool's gold?

This week affords us a unique opportunity to quantifiably evaluate just how much Tyreek is lifting Tua. We are 2.5 favorites this week versus the Patriots. If Tyreek were out for Sunday's game, do you think that the Patriots should be favored?

I could certainly tell you that if you told me Hill would not be playing that I would not be despondent and think that there is no hope to win the game. Honestly, I would still bet the Dolphins.

That being said, whenever Teddy Bridgewater entered, I felt entirely different about the prospects of winning a game, and my sentiments were magnified Skylar Thompson entered a game.

Agreed with all this.

I'll say in regards to Teddy. We never really got a good look at him. He never started or finished one game in the season, and I don't think he had one game with Armstead. Bridgewater did outplay Tua in Cincy. As for Skylar, I don't think he's an NFL QB. He just can't process quick enough. Has plenty of heart though and willing to get murdered to make a throw.

"Fireland wrote:

Even with the technicality you are going for he still had more yards in just the Tua games then he did with just Mahomes.

He also had less targets with Mahomes with more TDs.

"StaleTacos wrote:

2. He was worse because Tua didn't play a full season. So his numbers with Tua was worse than his numbers with Mahomes.

Well his numbers with Tua were better than his numbers with Teddy or Skylar:

With Tua - 108 yards and 0.54 TDs per game
Without Tua - 76 yards and 0 TDs per game

so a full season Tua and he'd be better than with Mahomes.... now we're getting somewhere. LOL.

"StaleTacos wrote:

He also had less targets with Mahomes with more TDs.

Look at those goal posts go

"FinFaninBuffalo wrote:

Well his numbers with Tua were better than his numbers with Teddy or Skylar:

With Tua - 108 yards and 0.54 TDs per game
Without Tua - 76 yards and 0 TDs per game

so a full season Tua and he'd be better than with Mahomes.... now we're getting somewhere. LOL.

Teddy didn't start and finish a game, and Skylar isn't NFL material. We agree Tua is much better than Skylar.

"Fireland wrote:

Look at those goal posts go

Well first set the goalposts. You want to define what better is?

"StaleTacos wrote:

Teddy didn't start and finish a game, and Skylar isn't NFL material. We agree Tua is much better than Skylar.

108 yards per game is higher than he averaged any season with Mahomes.

"OwesOwn614 wrote:

Umm...

What's funny is they lost almost every single one of those games in the video.

"tirty8 wrote:

I was thinking about something a few days ago while on a run: Is Tyreek the best WR in the history of the Miami Dolphins? I really think that the answer is "yes." Undoubtedly, you could say that generational talent is certainly going to make anyone throwing him the ball better - Mahomes included.

Do I think that Tua would be worse without Hill? Absolutely. Do I think Mahomes is worse without Hill? Sure. I think that ultimately it was proven that Mahomes was still elite even without Hill which was in line with my thinking.

Really, the question boils down to how much of a drop-off you think that there would be in a hypothetical universe without Hill? Do you think that the drop-off is so severe that you think that Tua is fool's gold?

This week affords us a unique opportunity to quantifiably evaluate just how much Tyreek is lifting Tua. We are 2.5 favorites this week versus the Patriots. If Tyreek were out for Sunday's game, do you think that the Patriots should be favored?

I could certainly tell you that if you told me Hill would not be playing that I would not be despondent and think that there is no hope to win the game. Honestly, I would still bet the Dolphins.

That being said, whenever Teddy Bridgewater entered, I felt entirely different about the prospects of winning a game, and my sentiments were magnified Skylar Thompson entered a game.

The question really is do you think the spread changes much if Tua isn't playing vs if Hill wasn't playing?

"FinFaninBuffalo wrote:

108 yards per game is higher than he averaged any season with Mahomes.

Throwing more often to a receiver tends to do that. Tua very reliant on Hill.

"StaleTacos wrote:

Agreed with all this.

I'll say in regards to Teddy. We never really got a good look at him. He never started or finished one game in the season, and I don't think he had one game with Armstead. Bridgewater did outplay Tua in Cincy. As for Skylar, I don't think he's an NFL QB. He just can't process quick enough. Has plenty of heart though and willing to get murdered to make a throw.

Dont get me started with Teddy.. probably my least favorite dolphin in the last ten years. And i was for him when we signed him, thought he would be a nice addition incase we needed to go to the backup qb.. He quit on this team last season when we needed him with that phantom finger injury.. and showed no effort or desire to be here. He was a different guy in New Orleans behind Brees..

"StaleTacos wrote:

Well first set the goalposts. You want to define what better is?

For WRs the two most important stats are actually volume stats (due to longevity): total yards and total TDs. Those two stats highly correlate with who gets in the HoF. Better than any others. Of course that's over a career. But still that gives you a benchmark.

So you should look at total yards, yards per game, total TDs, and TDs per game. Hill was better with Tua for the yards stats and worse for the TD stats. It's a wash. Based on the most important stats for WRs you really can't claim Tua was any worse than Mahomes w.r.t. Hill.

"StaleTacos wrote:

Well first set the goalposts. You want to define what better is?

In just the 12.5 Tua games

Second most yards in his career
Most yards per game in his career
More yards than 2021

So even with the goal post moving of "games without Tua don't count" his stats still didn't get worse

"Fireland wrote:

In just the 12.5 Tua games

Second most yards in his career
Most yards per game in his career
More yards than 2021

So even with the goal post moving of "games without Tua don't count" his stats still didn't get worse

Again, throwing more to a receiver is going to result in more yards.

Mahomes last year lost Tyreek Hill, and went from 3rd in EPA to 1st.

"StaleTacos wrote:

Again, throwing more to a receiver is going to result in more yards.

But he had more yards per catch too vs 2021

"Fireland wrote:

But he had more yards per catch too vs 2021

He also had the most yards per target in his CAREER with Alex Smith.

"StaleTacos wrote:

He also had the most yards per catch in his CAREER with Alex Smith.

And?

All you needed to say was "yeah I am glad to be wrong about him being worse with Tua. Their chemistry was a pleasant surprise"

"Fireland wrote:

And?

All you needed to say was "yeah I am glad to be wrong about him being worse with Tua. Their chemistry was a pleasant surprise"

And yards doesn't mean everything? He had more TDs with Mahomes. I'll take TDs over yards all day. Every team would.

Additionally, Tua skipped the best pass defense (Jets) twice! You guys keep comparing apples to oranges.

"Fireland wrote:

And?

All you needed to say was "yeah I am glad to be wrong about him being worse with Tua. Their chemistry was a pleasant surprise"

He needs to twist around his argument to fit the narrative.....QBs make WRs better right up until you include Tua in the conversation... then it magically reverses. AMAZING!

"StaleTacos wrote:

And yards doesn't mean everything? He had more TDs with Mahomes. I'll take TDs over yards all day. Every team would.

Additionally, Tua skipped the best pass defense (Jets) twice! You guys keep comparing apples to oranges.

And yet..... Hill has publicly stated his goal is to go over 2000 YARDS this season.... on pace for 3600 baby!

"FinFaninBuffalo wrote:

He needs to twist around his argument to fit the narrative.....QBs make WRs better right up until you include Tua in the conversation... then it magically reverses. AMAZING!

You consistently don't read. I've said it can be both.

"FinFaninBuffalo wrote:

And yet..... Hill has publicly stated his goal is to go over 2000 YARDS this season.... on pace for 3600 baby!

From your lips to God's ears.

"Finatik wrote:

What's funny is they lost almost every single one of those games in the video.

Oh, wow. That is funny.