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Tyler Eifert

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by boski7, Nov 25, 2012.

  1. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Sorry but you just said a whole lot of nothing.
    Could've saved yourself much time in this thread by simply saying, "I have no legitimate Egnew-is-a-bust argument."
    At least that would be better than your current argument of, "Egnew sucks b/c this list of mostly 1st & 2nd rounders and future HOFers who caught passes as rookies says so.". :unsure:


    BTW, you'd be calling for Fasano's replacement if he performed at the level most guys on that list did as rookies. Wait, you already are! See your below post:


    Fasano's average season (past 4 years): 34 catches, 443 yards, 4 TDs.
    Average on this list: 38 catches, 425 yards, 3.4 TDs.
    If that's not a hypocrite's argument. lol

    Based on your irrelevant, simplified, stat-based argument you must also be saying NE should've traded Gronk for Carlson, that Moeaki has a better chance at All Pro/HOF than Graham, that Alex Smith will have a better career than Vernon Davis, that Ben Troupe & Tony Gonzalez should've had similar careers, and that Jermichael Finley is a talentless piece of junk considering he caught 3 passes for 10 yards through his first 12 games (74 yards all season).
     
  2. Hiruma78

    Hiruma78 Season Ticket Holder Club Member


    actually he percfetly exposed your argument: you started saying one thing,




    then, when proved wrong by a long list of TE (some of them 3rd pick etc) that contributed immediately you chaqnged your position in




    and now you just accused him of not saying anything....

    well, I guess we have someting in common



    well, I really don't get SOME posters on this board
    :up::tongue2:
     
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  3. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    Let's get right into it.

    Number of selections after 2nd round:10 (41.66%)

    Average selection: 66.7, 3rd Round, 3rd pick
    Median selection:42.5, 2nd Round, 11th pick
    Michael Egnew: 78, 3rd Round, 16th pick

    Standard deviation of statistics for 1st/2nd round rookies: 14.3-168.8-2.5
    Average rookie statistics for 1st/2nd round rookies: 40.0-445.4-3.2
    Average rookie statistics after 2nd round: 35.4-394.1-3.6
    Difference between rookies drafted before/after 3rd round: 4.6-50.9-(-.4)
    Michael Egnew: 0-0-0

    Your argument that Michael Egnew should not be scored against other rookies is nonsense. While you are correct that the list contains a majority of players drafted in the 1st and 2nd round (60%), there is not a discernible difference in performance between those drafted before and after the 3rd round. The standard deviation and averages of the data sets suggest that tight ends drafted after the third round are well within one standard deviation of those drafted in the 1st and 2nd. Even if we omit those drafted in the first two rounds, those drafted in the 3rd or after posted an average respectable line. Why you think that it's excusable that Michael Egnew, a third round pick at a position of weakness, hasn't seen the field, talent manifesting or not, is beyond me.

    Let me further that by listing the rookie tight ends drafted after Egnew, along with their to-season statistics, and who they are behind on the depth chart.

    Ladarius Green, Chargers
    Selected: 4th Round, 110 Overall
    Statistics: 4-56-0
    Behind: Antonio Gates, Randy McMichael, Dante Rosario

    Evan Rodriguez, Bears (switched to Fullback)
    Selected: 4th Round, 111 Overall
    Statistics: 1-11-0
    Behind: None

    Orson Charles, Bengals
    Selected: 4th Round, 116 Overall
    Statistics: 7-84-0
    Behind: Jermaine Gresham

    Adrien Robinson, Giants
    Selected: 4th Round, 127 Overall
    Statistics: 0-0-0
    Behind: Martellus Bennett, Travis Beckum, Bear Pascoe

    James Hanna, Cowboys
    Selected: 6th Round, 186 Overall
    Statistics: 1-10-0
    Behind: Jason Witten, John Phillips

    Drake Dunsmore, Buccaneers
    Selected: 7th Round, 233 Overall
    Statistics: 0-0-0
    Behind: Practice Squad

    David Paulson, Steelers
    Selected: 7th Round, 240 Overall
    Statistics: 7-51-0
    Behind: Heath Miller, Leonard Pope

    Brad Smelley, Browns (switched to Fullback)
    Selected: 7th Round, 247 Overall
    Statistics: 0-0-0
    Behind: Practice Squad

    The only tight end drafted after Egnew that isn't on a practice squad and hasn't seen the field is Adrien Robinson. What is your excuse that guys like Ladarius Green and David Paulson are on the field, but Egnew is not? Anthony Fasano is not better than any of those tight ends. Clay, may perhaps be better than half of those number 2's. Mastrud should not be in the NFL.

    First of all, I am calling for Fasano's replacement. You learned to read in class today, though, so you already figured that out. There's nothing hypocritical about it. I never endorsed or defended him on this site, ever. Anthony Fasano was, last year, a 6-year veteran that was the uncontested starter on our team and he performed like a backup rookie tight end. Fasano is a serviceable tight end; an upper-tier number two. He has proven that he is not elite in any facet of the game, however, and that he's better suited as a complementary piece. I am calling for his replacement. I didn't explicitly state it before (so I don't know where you received the opposite notion), but I'll say it now: we need a better starting tight end. Nothing hypocritical about it. It's consistent with everything that I've said thus far. On that note, maybe you didn't learn how to read today.

    Lastly, I have no clue where you got idea that I said that first year statistics were the basis of a linear career trend. That's obviously not true. This is the quote from page 1, surrounding the statistics that I posted:

    If you need a straightforward interpretation (you do): I challenged that Egnew had lesser talent ahead of him on the current depth chart than those on the list, and also, that regardless, all of those players played. That is the crux of my argument. The simple point that I can't, for the life of me, beat into your cow pie head.

    My issue is with Sherman for not playing someone that a lot of people feel has a lot of potential. If he truly is sucking at a sub-Mastrud level, then be gone with him, but according to everything that has been said by the coaching staff recently, that is not the case. There's a logic error, which means one of two things:

    1) Sherman is an idiot for playing lesser players
    2) Egnew is not progressing as well as being let on

    Something tells me that the guy employed to train, refine, and coach players isn't playing the lesser players.

    Which brings me, full-circle, to my original comment:

    :nutkicker:
     
  4. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    Well at least someone didn't need the long form.

    He who argues with a fool is one...**** me lol
     
  5. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think people are making a mistake if they're assuming that because one guy made it onto the field long enough to catch a pass and another guy didn't, that means the guy that didn't is a worse player. That's my opinion.

    The gate keeper in each situation is the coaching staff and every coaching staff is different. And we've already seen with this particular coaching staff in the cases of Lamar Miller and Rishard Matthews (and to some extent Reggie Bush) that even if a guy shows promise, makes plays in the preseason, and/or even makes plays in the regular season, they will sit that guy on the pine if they're unhappy with something that seems trivial to us fans. Really, the statement by Mike Sherman that Michael Egnew is probably too far behind to ever do anything this year says everything we need to know about that in my opinion, and I don't mean everything we need to know about Michael Egnew's talent.
     
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  6. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    Except Egnew is not behind anyone good on the depth chart, had a horrible camp, a mediocre preseason, and hasn't even washed his jock this season.

    I agree with your statement, sure. You see guys like Michael Turner bust out with the chance all the time....but this is a separate situation. He's not playing for a reason right now.

    He could be good. He could be bad. Right now, it's not looking good for him, though.
     
  7. Sumlit

    Sumlit Well-Known Member

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    Regardless if Egnew turns out to be a solid contributing player next year, and Clay shows more consistency than just flashes, this team needs to invest into acquiring a dynamic TE. They need that just as much as they need complete WRs.

    So what if you end up with 3 good TEs after having none. What a travesty that would be, no?
     
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  8. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I just can't questions Sherman's acumen on the subject of Egnew, I mean they guy has designed good offenses on this level and has worked with great qbs, and Egnew was pretty much dswimming in camp..Just feel that egnew has played his way on the inactive list every week, not any deficiency in Sherman..
     
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  9. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    And Legedu Naanee played his way onto the active list every week? Legedu Naanee is still #3 among all Dolphins wide receivers in snaps in 2012, and he hasn't been on the team in two months.
     
  10. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Too much emphasis on practice.
     
  11. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    PFF ranked Fasano 7th in 2011, 4th in 2010 and 6th in 2009 among NFL TEs. I realize that you have concluded that he is not any good, but the people that have evaluated every play for the last several years disagree with you. Clay may suffer from some fo the same issues as Egnew and has been inconsistent, but he has talent. If you don't see that, I'm not sure what to tell you . . . .

    The truth is that you don't know the reason why Egnew is not playing. As pointed out already, guys like LMiller have played well when given a chance but this stuff, for whatever reason, doesn't seem to trust him yet. Same for Rishard Matthews. It may be no different for Egnew. The fact that a few late round picks on other teams have been active and caught a few passes hardly means they are better than Egnew.

    At Game 11 of his rookie year, Jermichael Finley had caught 2 passes for 10 yards. At that same stage, Antonio Gates had caught 7 for 105. Ben Coates had caught 7 for 71. Shannon Sharpe had caught 3 for 48. Dennis Pitta caught 1 for 1 yard. Brandon Myers had 2 for 7. The fact that there have been some young TEs that have produced earlier hardly means that guys who don't produce early won't develop into very productive players, or even All Pros.
     
  12. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Yes. Was thinking about mentioning his uncle Christian and through in that as his name!
     
  13. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

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    Is this order of need or order of drafting?

    I can't go that order in drafting. Obviously to a large degree you want BPA. But, Ideally:

    1) WR - greatest need, imo.

    after that I'd probably go BPA on any of four major positions: CB, TE, Pass-rush DE, Interior OL. Week to week any of those issues could be #2 after WR in terms of need.

    Too bad we'll be around the middle of the pack - would love to be close enough and have the ammo to get Lee at WR.
     
  14. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    WRONG, he supported my argument.
    I said it's typical for TEs to have little impact as rookies. Hurricane then provided a narrow, cherry-picked list of players whom mostly performed at a level below the level of play he's looking to replace in Fasano, especially in the run blocking aspect of the game (which MOST rookie TEs do NOT impact at as rookies), and then he hypocritically attempted to say that's considered "making an impact".

    Hurricane didn't "expose" anything. All he did was alter the definition of "having an impact" and ignored the REMAINDER of NFL TEs by cherry picking a handful of mostly elite, highly-drafted, more NFL-ready players (some of which whom got to play the less physically demanding Hback position), as well as completely ignored the run blocking aspect of the game. Did he appropriately encompass the entire NFL to support his argument? NOPE. The players on his short list, outside of a few, did NOT play at a high level as rookies and especially NOT consistently. They were NOT finished products, and if they did NOT improve and develop from year 1 on, their rookie receiving stats would be interpreted as mediocre at best. It's a bull*** argument on his part, and he did nothing to support his belief that Egnew is worthless.

    THe players on that list had to develop from year 1 and on before they became worth a legitimate damn just as Egnew deserves the same before writing him off as a bust. Writing off a talented player just b/c he didn't play much or at all as a rookie is beyond idiotic unless you have a truly legitimate argument, which Hurricane's little list of stats is far from providing.
     
  15. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    :words:
    You still haven't proven crap except that you can't prove crap. Just a long-winded pile of crap. A bunch of stats that mean crap. Crap crap crap. I provided an in-depth argument for why Egnew might not be playing this year despite perhaps having long term potential and you countered with NOTHING. You've not said a single relevant thing that supports a belief that Egnew has no future. Players drafted further or after others means crap. Players not contributing in year 1 doesn't correlate to crap. Breaking down the average draft round selection on that list compared to Egnew correlates to crap. Again, crap crap crap.

    You can't "beat anything into my head" on the subject b/c nothing will change your ignorant, unsupported belief. You won't make me foolishly believe that not playing as a rookie is concrete grounds for failure of every player to enter the NFL (past, present, and future), as I could shoot holes in that all day long, but that's not worth my time b/c it'd be like spending an hour trying to convince you the planet isn't flat.


    On top of that, you're dismissing the coach, himself, who praised Egnew's progress b/c it doesn't fit YOUR irrational, flawed argument.

    You've entirely & successfully ignored the notion of Egnew possibly needing this season to convert from college Hback & slot receiver to an NFL TE as well as the rigors that encompass such a demanding transition, half of which is physical (mainly in terms of blocking) considering he played at 240 and under at Mizzou, far from the size needed to be an effective blocker as an NFL #1 TE, and with the other half being the position change itself, including learning that position (including an entirely new route tree) to the point he can consistently execute to Philbin's high standards. Actual talent has NOTHING to do with this, and, like I said, if our plans were to only use him solely as an Hback he'd most likely be seeing the field b/c that's a role he's more accustomed to, and it's a role that wouldn't require him to meet more stringent physical requirements, but of course you didn't address that notion either. :001_rolleyes: No, instead you entirely removed the individually specific situational aspect of it and reduced everything down to such a simplistic argument it's ridiculous.
     
  16. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    You should seriously kick your own self in the nuts for this foolish comment.

    NFL success is NOT determined by rookie year stats. It's determined by their full career.
    Like I said, if you insist on justifying a player's worth based on rookie stats then by default you're saying John Carlson is superior to Jimmy Graham & Tony Gonzalez...... and Alex Smith is superior to Jason Witten. That's how silly and off base your argument is.


    Hurricane's accidentally omitted part of the post:
    "Yes, I know Antonio Gates is one of the best receiving TEs in NFL history and a likely HOFer, but Randy McMichael is/was better b/c he caught 15 more passes and twice as many TDs as a rookie."
    :lol:
     
  17. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Just b/c a fool agrees with another fool it doesn't make the original fool correct. :wink2:
     
  18. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Phinsational is getting his Ireland infested but kicked in this thread.
     
  19. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    By using logic and facts? I guess he should use more mindless emotion and conclusion jumping.

    OMGZ Egnew doesn't start first here. He Suxxx!
     
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  20. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Yeah you're right, Egnew should easily come in here and gain the extra size & strength needed for the NFL TE position (that he lacked at Mizzou), precisely learn the required route tree (much of which he didn't run at Mizzou), how to block (which was rarely asked of him at Mizzou), plus all the other little nuances of what's essentially a position change considering he wasn't actually a TE in college, and then subsequently steal veteran Fasano's job to where we'd be better off with Egnew on the field than Fasano. <that's sarcasm by the way>

    Get it through your stubborn head, Egnew is a considerably raw TE prospect who was drafted for his upside and future potential. From the time we drafted him it would've been a bonus for him to see playing time as a rookie and in Philbin's more complex offense. Heck, we've cut veteran receivers b/c they either couldn't fit into the complex offense or b/c they couldn't execute their responsibilities (namely route running ability/precision) the way Philbin desires..... but no, you expect Egnew to come in here and do what they couldn't despite being a true neophyte to the TE position.
     
  21. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Jermichael Finley didn't sit on the bench his rookie year b/c of a lack of talent, Deej.
    It's more about Philbin's strict demands than anything IMO. He places a massive emphasis on execution & precision, and he'll obviously keep talented guys off the field if he feels they're not yet ready to meet his high execution standards. As a whole I'm guessing this mentality could lead each player and the team as a whole to work that much harder if they realize talent alone isn't enough to see action.

    Philbin demonstrated this very issue with the benching/trading of Vontae (saying he doesn't know if he can trust him moving forward b/c of too much ups and downs and not enough consistency) and then the cutting of Gates ("neophyte as a route runner", despite having the talent to play the game and see the field as he's doing in NY); therefore, if Philbin is ok with benching the talented Vontae & Gates due to inconsistency, then he sure as heck won't abstain from benching an inexperienced, rookie Hback-TE convert no matter how talent the player (see Finley). IMO, either you're executing at Philbin's standard or you're not, and if you're not then you're likely on the bench, which isn't necessarily a knock on Egnew as it could mean he simply needs some more time developing.
     
  22. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    LOL @ that. Shows how little you know about football. :wink2:
     
  23. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    I know what I see, I watch just about every game every week for the past 10 years...and in that time there have been some late bloomers undoubtedly. But I can tell you more often than not a good football player displays some sort of positivity in their first season. It's the same logic I used against the "smart football guys" who claimed Jason Allen was the right pick. Instead? People continued to make excuses for him year in and year out until he was ran out of town.

    I'm not predicting the kid never finds his way in this league and at some point contributes to an NFL team, however all signs are pointing toward bustville and we would be foolish as fans to think we are "ok" at TE and an upgrade is unnecessary.
     
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  24. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Lets hope.

    His inactivity has made me begin to really dislike Sherman.
     
  25. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Cam Wake? How'd he do as a rookie?
    Paul Soliai and his 6 tackles through his first 2 year?
    Reshad Jones whom half this board declared a potential bust after year one?



    I get what you're saying, but Jason Allen has nothing to do with Michael Egnew.
    Sorry, but I refuse to have a knee-jerk reaction about a raw but talented 3rd rounder not seeing the field as a rookie, especially if he's undergoing a positional change from Hback (more like oversized slot receiver) to our future primary TE.
     
  26. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    I wasn't sure which of your "**** on the wall" posts to respond to, so I chose the stinkiest, corn-filled stain you made. By the way, is this how you average like 50 posts a day? I saw that earlier and was going to tell you to get a life, but now I see that it's just a bunch of crap. It probably took you all of 5 minutes to write the 10 posts you made in this thready today.

    Enough with the nonsense, though. I addressed this in the long-form response that I gave you. In great detail. I know that you're only at the Highlights-level of reading comprehension, but maybe you can phone a friend to help you out with the logic and big words I laid out there. You'll learn something.

    I'm done arguing with you at this point, because I spent a lot of time writing that last response, and it truly has everything that needs to be said. Stop consuming and regurgitating your regurgitations and make a new point, and I might even respond if it's not beyond ridiculous.

    After intermittently spending this day with you, I honestly have only one thing to say to you: You have got one hell of an imagination, my friend.
     
  27. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    I don't think I'm stupid, but God knows why I couldn't say this in less than a novel. Thank you.
     
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  28. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    For every Cam Wake their are 25 Jason Allen's.

    I hope I'm wrong and Egnew is the next Jimmy Graham, but it just doesn't look that way.
     
  29. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Posting doesn't take very long when you actually know your s**t and aren't attempting to contrive an argument w/o it sounding like a bigger load of dookie than it currently is. Plus I type with more than just 2 fingers. :wink2:

    So an excessive amount of meaningless typing = being correct ??

    Hmph, well in that case you're quickly becoming the most correct poster this forum has to offer. :lol:
    Either counter with an actual argument (a related one) to the pertinent points I made or stop responding. Thanks in advance.

    You're welcome. If it were only as much of an honor for me as it was you.
     
  30. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    So you're saying you're not sure? :lol:
     
  31. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Would he be a failure if he isn't the next Jimmy Graham?
     
  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I was referring to CKs point and how I interpreted it, I don't think he's particularly happy with Sherman's play callin or vision..

    I don't think there's anyone to blame in this case, the kids obviously not ready to play ball, physically, or mentally..it's ok though, cause at one point he was third in the country coming out for me, behind Allen and Fleener, he's got talent,.I'm willing to give him a hall pass for the year..

    What sucks is how it will affect our projections in the draft, as fans we won't know what's going on upstairs..I mean if they think he has talent and just needs to get the scheme down til where he's not thinking, they may not go tight end in the draft, and another great one will have come and gone..At some point we have to start adding up players that were passed on..
     
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  33. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I think the main reason Egnew isn't on the field right now is that he wasn't physical enough. They don't trust him for special teams. They spent time getting him to play more physical and now he is behind.
     
  34. Fin-Omenal

    Fin-Omenal Initiated

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    Will he be a success, if he never sees the field?
     
  35. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    We won't know the main reason Egnew isn't on the field until he gets on the field, ironically enough.

    In only two games we've caught pretty big glimpses already of why Rishard Matthews wasn't on the field, so it should be self-evident pretty quickly.

    If the Dolphins lose to the Patriots I would say the playoff race is officially over and in that case they need to put more young guys on the field including and especially Egnew.
     
  36. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Jermichael Finley didn't sit on the bench his rookie year. He wasn't a big part of the offense but he was active for every game he was healthy and contributed on special teams.

    Egnew apparently can't even be trusted with that.
     
  37. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    That's essentially semantics b/c even if Egnew saw Finley's minimal time on the field (3 catches for 10 yards through first 12 games) this forum would still be disgruntled and condemning the kid b/c the addition of 4 special teams tackles to his rookie resume would faze them as much as a gentle breeze. The revised argument you'd be hearing is, "I don't care how many ST tackles he has b/c he only has 3 catches for 10 yards, and the last I checked we drafted him as a TE, not a linebacker."


    Furthermore, up until the recent KO return we hadn't had any issues with special teams (sans kicking FGs), so I don't see why he should be knocked for simply not seeing the field on special teams.
     
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  38. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Special teams work helps develop a player. It helps you get used to the speed of a real game.

    For a 3rd round pick to not even be trusted to contribute on special teams is dissapointing. There is now ay around that. Certainly it's possible that Egnew becomes a star next year but that doesn;t mean that his lack of any playing time right now isn't dissapointing.
     
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  39. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    That's just it, no one but no one is saying it isn't disappointing, all anyone is saying is that it doesn't automatically make him a bust or a horrible pick. We all are disappointed that Egnew isn't on the field lighting it up.
     
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  40. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    It's all about our individual expectations. If peoples' false expectations were that a raw prospect essentially undergoing a position change would come in here and be productive as a rookie, then of course they'll be disappointed. If your expectations were that he'd be lucky to contribute year 1 due to being raw and undergoing a position change, then you're not really all that disappointed. Now, if Egnew doesn't transition from year 1 to 2 in accordance with proper expectations, then my disappointment will ensue.
     
    MrClean and djphinfan like this.

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