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Uh, maybe this is something they should have fixed? (Tanny batted passes)

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Section126, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Interesting stat that got regurgitated on 790 just now, but it reared it's ugly head yesterday.

    Balls batted at the line of scrimmage in 2011:

    Andrew Luck = 2
    Russell Wilson = 2

    Ryan Tannehill = 19

    Well, it's obviously a problem. As far as I can see, his problem has a lot to do with his release. He takes a while for him to set to deliver the football and it allows Linemen to setup to bat the ball down.

    This deliberate nature bodes well for his accuracy down the line, but this issue remains.

    He has to speed up his release and delivery.
     
  2. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson were perfect yesterday with nothing to fix on their own.
     
  3. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    strawman alert.

    Talking about the batted ball issue. I put Luck in there becasue he was #1 overall and Wilson in there because he is a midget.
     
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  4. Buckeyetroop

    Buckeyetroop Active Member

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    Point missed. That stat tells a lot.
     
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  5. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I think you're making the assumption that they could have just pulled out the batted ball eraser.

    I'm sure they knew about it and are working on it.
     
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  6. Killer Bees

    Killer Bees Bringin' the Ruckus

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    I saw a NFL live special where Trent Dilfer did a segment on all the rookie QB's who were expected to start at the time. It focused on the quick release times of all 3 QB's (Luck, RGIII and Tannehill) and RT's wasn't any slower than Luck's and RGIII's.
     
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  7. BlameItOnTheHenne

    BlameItOnTheHenne Taking a poop

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    ^^^
     
  8. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Offensive line could have prevented two of the batted balls FOR SURE yesterday. Another was a great play by the defensive player (one that wasn't Watt, I think it was a blitzing LB'er)

    In general I'd like to see Ryan get a half step to a step deeper into the pocket on his short drops. His delivery is fine but his depth leaves a bit to be desired IMO.
     
  9. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Trent Dilfer is a meathead.

    You can't account for his setup if all you look at is his release.

    It's his feet and recognition.
     
  10. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    I think you also have to look at the types of offenses that were being run with these players in college. Texas A&M used a WCO that featured a lot of three-step drops and quick passing, which linemen are taught to combat by trying to bat down passes.
     
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  11. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck Club Member

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    I definitely agree they need to work on this so it isn't an issue down the road.

    But I hope in the short-term they use some deeper drops and get him outside of the pocket a little.

    It is an issue that needs to be fixed - but doesn't seem like one that needs to make us implode like we did yesterday. If they can cut the field in half for Henne, gotta think they can find a way to buy RT a little room back there.
     
  12. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    I'd like to blame the Line completely but on some of Tannehill's throws it looks like low passes. I'm pretty sure at least 1 pass hit a Dolphin lineman helmet.
     
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    It's an issue, but it's not necessarily an issue that I feel people (self included) have a grasp on when it comes to attribution. The reason I feel that way should be obvious, pretty much everyone comes up with different answers from everyone else. Section126 thinks it's release speed (personally I disagree with that). Others I know have brought up release height (personally again, I disagree). Many blame the OL for not doing their jobs on three step drops. Many blame Tannehill's tendency not to look off the defense before throws. Others point to Tannehill's inability to pay attention to and manipulate his passing lanes. I haven't heard it brought up but even drop depth is something that I could see people bringing up as an issue. Another one I haven't heard brought up as much would be the high percentage of three step drops in the offense, which produces a response in the defense to specifically plan and aim for batted passes.

    The thing to note in the trend attribution (and I agree with Alen, this is a trend, this isn't just a one game thing) is that Ryan Tannehill is not the ONLY common denominator. We brought a whole host of common denominators with him from Texas A&M. His quarterbacks coach is the same, his offensive coordinator is essentially the same, and even his offensive line coach is the same. So it really could be any combination of the above factors.
     
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  14. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I also wonder why the routes were designed to be directly behind the defensive end. This seems questionable in itself. Is this a Sherman issue? He IS a constant from college to NFL for Ryan. A lot of the quick routes were set so that the ball was to be delivered directly over the head of Watt. This seems like an issue with the spacing of the route itself. It seems like the route should be further off the outside shoulder of the DE or carry itself further over the middle into a window between the DE and DT. The ball shouldnt be repeatedly flying directly over the DE.

    Also Ck, I beat you to the drop depth. Not sure if you agree but I have voiced it here and in another thread as well.
     
  15. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Has anybody timed RT from snap to setup on his 3, 5 and 7 step drops and compared it to others?
     
  16. Coral Reefer

    Coral Reefer Premium Member

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    I don't know.... a low delivery was mentioned by a few scouts as to his batted ball problems wasn't it?
    This isn't a surprise that this is happening. We knew it was an issue for him and the stats Sec. has brought here just solidifies a clear issue.

    To me it may be more of an issue with projecting where he's going with the ball by staring too long in one area.
    That was what I noticed.
    You don't get defenders jumping to bat passes randomly all along the line. You get defenders in the path of where a QB is looking jumping to bat passes right?
     
  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I haven't timed his drop but I've certainly timed his release. His release is abnormally fast.
     
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  18. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    His release comes from right beside his ear. It's textbook pretty much and as CK mentioned very very quick. The reason it looks low is because in my opinion, his depth is a little bit poor which results in a bad trajectory over the lineman.

    Just my personal opinion. Hopefully whatever it is gets fixed.

    Passes that quick generally don't have multiple reads. Staring down has more to do with linebackers and safeties than anyone else. Until yesterday I'd honestly never even considered a QB looking off a defensive lineman rushing, because if all else goes as planned IMO it's a waste of time.
     
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  19. Killer Bees

    Killer Bees Bringin' the Ruckus

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    Okay maybe he doesn't recognize a play as quick as maybe Luck or RGIII, but when he starts his throwing motion it's no slower than either of theirs. You have to give some credit to the Houston defensive line, JJ Watt stated before the game he saw a lot of quick drop back throws in the film, so they made it part of the game plan to try to disengage the Lineman and get their hands in the passing lanes.

    What does Trent Dilfer have to do with anything? He's can't alter the college tape so he throws faster.

    I always thought it might be an advantage for a QB to wear a tinted visor so the defense can't read their eyes, and you look bad *** lol
     
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  20. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Point not missed. That stat doesn't tell the entire story and is without context.
     
  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    Cliche alert.

    All rookie quarterbacks have things to fix. You can't fix them all in one offseason.
     
  22. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    You heard it here first. Or second, or third. ;)

    The thing to do now is to compare Tannehill to other quarterbacks at A&M who were in the same offensive system, and take a look at their heights, release points, and delivery speeds.
     
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  23. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    Agreed. and I attack Dilfer because his analysis that is designed to sound like a scout, is generally terrible.
     
  24. Buckeyetroop

    Buckeyetroop Active Member

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    You're first response says you did miss the point. There's at least some validity to the stat.
     
  25. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    No it doesn't. It says you don't understand the context of the comment.
     
  26. Killer Bees

    Killer Bees Bringin' the Ruckus

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    I feel the same way.
     
  27. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Ryan Tannehill has a manipulatable release. It's one of the things I like about him. Yesterday there was a pass he threw where he flipped it out total sidearm and I loved it, because it actually increased the chances of it being a good pass, given the situation. Other passes he throws more classically over top. And they get batted by defenders the same as the rest.

    The passes he gets batted down are not release height issues, nor release speed issues, IMO. I think those are sort of the classic things everyone automatically turns to when a guy gets his passes batted at the line a lot but I don't personally think that is the case here.

    I think one big thing is that when you're game planning for a Mike Sherman offense with Ryan Tannehill throwing the ball, you know you're not going to get very many sacks. His offense did not let up many sacks in Texas A&M and I doubt it will let up very many sacks in Miami, even though Jonathan Martin is...shall we say questionable?...in pass protection. I imagine there's a reason why so few sacks and it might be wishful thinking to say it's just Ryan Tannehill's fantastic pocket presence, or the great blocking of our offensive line. In football everything is give and take, you can rarely have your cake and eat it too, defenses respond to things you do. I imagine that when it comes to the tendency with Ryan Tannehill running Mike Sherman's offense to get the ball out very quickly, the defense responds with technique changes that make them less likely to engage a potent pass rush, but more likely to bat a pass down at the line.

    Those incremental batted passes basically become 0 yard sacks, and the ones that get batted up and intercepted are the equivalent of hit as thrown pass attempts that fly errant and end up picked off.
     
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  28. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    1. The fact that Tanny had his balls knocked down at the LOS in college was pretty much common knowledge. That is, if I knew about it, it was common knowledge, cause I'm not super-informed.
    2. You all have put forth very plausible explanations for this problem. I think CK is right, it's likely a combination of factors.
    3. You gotta think that the coaching staff has been working with him on this. And if they didn't, they sure as **** are now.
    4. You also gotta think that the D-line coach for the Raiders is gonna be harping on this all week. Maybe he could incorporate more pump-fakes and let Big Jake and Richie and the boys punch those D-linemen in the gut. Kinda like in the Longest Yard.

    That's all I got, boys!
     
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  29. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    And what we need to remember IMO in characterizing this as "a problem" is that the percentage of passes that get batted and turn into interceptions is going to be far less over the long-term than it was yesterday, and the percentage that blow games wide open like they did yesterday is going to be even less than that.

    In other words, the perception of the severity of this problem is being colored by one game in very recent memory in which very infrequent and improbable events occurred.
     
  30. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The problem is when you consider that the same staff came from Texas A&M (where this was a problem) to Miami (where this is now a continuing problem), even if they're trying to get to the bottom of the issue and correct it, you've got to wonder if they are even capable of doing that.

    It's something where Joe Philbin may be forced to step in with his own assessment of what is wrong (if he even has one) and make some changes to the offense accordingly. He use to be an OL coach. He'll know if Jim Turner isn't coaching his guys to engage properly on three step drops. He'll know if Jim Turner's offensive line is doing things differently from the offensive line in Green Bay, where they never had an issue with batted passes. He will also (hopefully) know if the problem is in the mix of three step drops, or the depth of Tannehill's drop, or the the angles of the route design (which is another one I tend to doubt, personally).

    For Sherman, Zac Taylor and Jim Turner, they came from Texas A&M where this was a problem for Ryan Tannehill, now to Miami where this is a problem for Ryan Tannehill, and so if they didn't have the answer to the dilemma at Texas A&M then they're probably not very likely to have the answer in Miami. The sombrero is on Joe Philbin to get it fixed because he's the one with the best perspective. If he doesn't, then IMO that is a direct reflection on his prowess as a head coach. No excuses, you're supposed to get these problems fixed.
     
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  31. GARDENHEAD

    GARDENHEAD Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I disagree 100%. Even 2 balls per game that land safely on the ground is too many in one game.
     
  32. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    It's still twice the percentage of what is acceptable in this offense, IMO. Even if you're going by the 19 batted passes at Texas A&M in 2011, that's at least twice what it should be and it's not good.
     
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  33. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    You disagree with the idea that two balls per game that get batted at the line and land safely on the ground is a less severe problem than two balls that get batted at the line and become interceptions that blow a game wide open? :headscratch:
     
  34. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Agreed.

    I'm not a coach so I can't really comment on the technical aspects of why the knockdown problem is happening but it does seem to me logically to be something that can be fixed and should not be an insurmountable obstacle.

    But that's on the coaches. Tanny himself might not be able to diagnose exactly why the issue is occuring so someone else has to figure it out and give him the techniques to fix it.
     
  35. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    What are you basing that on?
     
  36. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    An accurate grasp on what normal and ideal batted pass percentages are.
     
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  37. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Derived from what?
     
  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Reality
     
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  39. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Ah okay. At least that tells me how much stock I can put in that opinion. Thanks.
     
  40. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    If you don't know by now that I don't whip out claims like that without having a very firm basis in the statistics then you will never know that, and truthfully I could care less how much stock you put in it. It's not my responsibility to make sure you're not only informed of the truth, but informed in such a way that you're left with no doubt whatsoever that this is the truth. Try a little personal responsibility on for size, verify the statistic for yourself.
     
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