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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by tkdzak90, Jul 28, 2011.
"Apparently" based on?
Thats not a bad trade at all.
Now watch as Amaya becomes a hall of famer that changes the way the position is played.
ESPN has been saying Amaya is involved for awhile. Could be in addition to a pick.
It's still about evaluation though. IMO if we had drafted Ryan he would have performed no better here than Henne did. I had Ryan rated as better than Henne coming out but he isn't a guy who finds a way to win games. If you look at Atlanta's success, they win when the running game works and lose when it doesn't. Ryan isn't the guy winning games for them. So while I agree that a QB should be a priority when a top one comes along, I wouldn't have taken Ryan over Jake Long then or in hindsight.
Did that happen in Madden or in an alternate universe? because Ryan is yet to win a playoff game and has played in exactly one more playoff game than Jake Long.
Ryan has yet to play not horrible in a playoff game.
EDIT: I am not sold on any quarterback who the game plan is for them to throw the ball more.
espn , on the reader board , not sure if it was in addition to a pick though...
Bush will be a nice fit in our new Spread offense. He can upgrade our return game, and be a dangerous threat our of the backfield or in the slot. Love the move!
In this case I even prefer the trade over a FA signing on him because it let us hold onto some key cap space to bring in more weapons elsewhere. Very excited!
If you are excited , so am I !
Thanks for the post and you do make some great points especially the poor ground game last year.
But I still think it boils down to Henne making the reads and throws. I remember reading stats that Henne was much more productive in, I think, 3 and 4 WR sets. But there is this niggling thought in my head that wonders what the point spread was when he was being effective in these sets. Was it because Henne was truly that much better in those sets or was it the defense was in a bend but don't break mode?
Unfortunately I don't have the time to categorize all the plays ( in terms of personnel, LOS, down & distance, result of the play, point spread etc ). To see if my hunch is completely off base or not. I guess this year will answer the question for me.
Thanks again TP.
I think you have to analyze the current staff's tenure, and not let past failures drip into your dissension.
Its the 4th year, and they have a winning record overall during a rebuild of mammoth proportions..Their also one of the 5 youngest teams in football..A really good defense, a dominant front 7, and we have addressed all the weaknesses that kept us from a winning record last year..on paper..lets give this young team a chance to play some football together.
Ryan mans one position, and mans it well (for the most part) while Long is the games best left tackle on a shaky offensive line. It's like a deadbolt on the front door of Fort Knox while all the other doors are unlocked.
Why don't you just analyze the current staff and their tenure without letting your dissension of our history affect your current analysis.
I can easily flip that. THey win when Ryan plays well, they lose when he doesn't.
They went 13-3 last year. His QBR - 67, 78, 78 in the 3 losses. Hey, that's Henne's career average. In any event, why is automatically the running game and not Ryan's play that helps them win. If you look at Atlanta's run game they averaged the same YPC as we did. They had more yards probably because they had more drives, in part thanks to a QB who doesn't throw it at the other team. Yes he had a lot of passes, which means they had a lot of possessions and he still only threw 9 INTs.
I think Jake Long is the best LT in the game and only amongst Miami fans would you hear anyone pick Jake Long over Matt Ryan, even in hindsight. We're looking to trade for Kyle Orton. Kyle effing Orton. Since Ryan Jake Long we've had Henne, we've had Pat White. We're now looking at Kyle Orton? If the rest of the nation saw this discussion they'd be laughing their arses off, and rightfully so.
Of course Ryan played poorly, they couldn't run the ball.
Can Reggie Bush stay healthy anymore? You know it wouldn't be a Jeff Ireland FA signing if there weren't big injury concerns.
Ricky on Bush signing (his twitter): I really like what the Dolphins are doing. its gonna be fun to watch how they put all the pieces together.
Ricky would like to return ... for me , he is still a viable option ...
Not sure if you guys saw....But Sean Peyton says it was Amaya for Bush and a swap of undisclosed draft picks
If you actually watch their games then you would see that Atlanta always tries to establish the running game first. When it fails, the 2.6 avg. that Turner has in their losses, Ryan is ineffective. A franchise QB is a guy that can elevate the team when other areas struggle. Ryan and Henne can't do that.
I saw that. I wonder whether that is a good move. Overall I think it could help both sides...especially on Special Teams. Only time will tell. Good post Finfangirl!!
Here we go with the 'Ryan isn't better than Henne' stuff again. Even top QBs can have struggles when their running game is that poor. I'd say a franchise QB is a guy you're not trying to replace four years into his tenure with your team.
IIRC most of these sets came when we were either trailing or slightly behind and they occurred during long ball controlled drives. We ran these formations b/c we need to keep one of the leagues top slot WRs on the field, which only makes sense.
That was my first thought when I saw we made this deal.
We should do an over under line on how many games Bush will actually be able to contribute at all.
Can't join til August 4th I believe.
And I've been hearing way too many people quote a 4th and 6th as those two swapped draft picks.
That better not be true.
I've only seen a fourth mentioned in one place, from that WLL site. And they were using ESPN as a source and no one has seen it on ESPN, so I'm pretty skeptical of a 4th being involved. Have you seen it anywhere else?
Would trading them be so bad? Is pick 120 and 200 instead of pick 110 and 185 so different on draft day? Real question.
I actually I said that Ryan was better than Henne, but neither is a franchise QB, ie. a guy who wins games for you on his own. I don't agree with your definition of "franchise QB". I don't see the Fiedler years as years we had a franchise QB.
I think it would be awful yes.
Darren Sproles just signed with NO for 4/14 mil, 6 guaranteed. That's smart. We take on Bush and Sainte are smart to dump him and pick up better, cheaper replacement.
I like the Reggie trade/signing too, but not as much after this news.
We made less of a commitment to Reggie, I'd say.
Makes me wonder why we didn't just sign Sproles to a similar deal and keep our draft pick and/or Amaya. I do like getting Reggie, but Sproles at less per season would have been fine.
Sum up my thoughts perfectly!
I'm not a huge fan of Bush, Reggie that is, but it didn't cost us much and his contract is cap friendly. Good job by the front office, he's a nice piece to have on offense. I would hope that we might finally start throwing to Rbs that can receive now.
I agree. I think the key is getting Bess on the field.
I have done all the stats for the first very first Pats game last year ( Special Teams Debacle game ) and the conventional theory seems to hold true for that game. When Henne was in a 2 running back personnel package he was terrible ( trying to remember the numbers it was something like 10 attempt, 6-ish completions, and 2 INTs ), when he was in a 1 running back or less personnel packages his completions were through the roof ( Bess was a large part of that as you stated ) and he only threw 1 INT from these 'spread' sets and that was in garbage time ( we were down like 20 at that point). Which was the complete opposite of my theory that Henne was racking up some of the stats in garbage time.
Of course that was only 1 game. I am going to do the same stat tracking for the Phins @ Pats game as well. Henne was pulled early, and I am not going to bother tracking Thigpen, so it should be much quicker for that game on the Dolphins side.
I am really doing this to try to get an idea of how the Pats attacked our defense last year. And see what carries over to the opening game. It might also show what the Pats changed in order to work Ocho Cinco into the mix, if they change anything at all. So I am excited to see if the work bears any fruit in the first week of the season .
Ryan may not be an elite NFL QB, but for the next 5 to 10 years he is locked in as the QB for the Atlanta Falcons. They guy puts up decent numbers and has lead the Falcons to the playoffs for three straight years, so to me right now he is their franchise QB. I just want the Dolphins to get a good QB, that consistently puts the team in position to win games which Ryan does.
At some point in time this team needs to break down and spend a first round pick on a QB. I am not just talking drafting Ryan, it goes back to list of QB's we have passed on which i wont even bring up. I mean logical thinking would tell you that if you have a desperate need at QB for the last 15 years or so, then you would try to take the best one available with your first pick, to me this is just common sense in putting a winning team together. To me if I was putting a team together for longtime success, the first piece of the puzzle I would want would be a great starting QB, and I would just keep drafting QB's to a finally found one. The fact that we didn't even draft a QB in this year's draft is insane.
If you watch the NFL most teams tries to establish the Running game first.
He pulled that win out in SF when the whole team stunk.
What you just said epitomizes every QB out there. John Elway couldn't win the big one until TD arrived. Dan Marino only got to the dance once. Two main criticisms? Defense and run game.
Did you watch the game against Baltimore? I sure did. What I saw was a running game that gained 60 yards. Total. For a ypc of ... 2.6ypc. Matches your Turner average perfectly. I saw a QB who passed for 3TDs and 0 Ints, 316 yards, 64%, vs one of the premier defenses in the league with no running game. After their defense gives up 13 points in the 4th quarter to the Ravens, I also saw a last minute TD from Ryan to win the game.
Ryan wasn't struggling too bad then, when his run game was flat. It's also very easy to point out flaws in losses when they only had 3 all year last year. Turner had some mediocre games (seahawks, 2nd TB, final game against Carolina where they clinched homefield) that they still won. That's two bad games, and 3 mediocre games for the running backs. All hell didn't break loose. They actually won
It's really hard to point to a team that is 13-3 and say oh it's because of this guy, instead of that guy, when that guy has 28/9 TD/INT ratio, a 62% rate, and a 91 QBR. It's called synergy, they feed off each other. without a threat of a good passer is Turner that good if the Defense is keying on just him?
that Baltimore game illustrates how he played well, against a very good defense, where his running game was stuffed. Say what you will about henne, but Ryan has elevated the team.
Meanwhile we're trying to trade for Orton.
I can point to games where Fiedler pulled it out as well. The difference between a franchise QB and other QBs is how often they can do that. I don't see Ryan as capable of doing that on a near enough consistent basis. He has a good defense, a great running game, a nice system and plenty of complementary weapons. If they fail in the playoffs again, I expect that more will start concluding that he's good but not a franchise QB. I think that if we had drafted Ryan, he would have been better than Henne, but the same questions being asked about Henne today would exist about Ryan.