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[Updated] Dolphins workout, sign Chad Ochocinco

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by dgb11112, Jun 9, 2012.

  1. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think it's a waste of time. Ocho is slow, does not get good separation any more or RAC and his hands have become suspect. It's pitiful, really, that we don't go after a WR in the draft (expecting coaches to develop the young guys; ok fine) and yet, we sign a guy like Ocho at the end of his career with little left in the tank? It doesn't really say a lot about the confidence we have in our current corps.

    Ocho had 5 good years (2003-2007). Dropped off significantly in '08; rebounded in '09 (but not to the levels of '03-07) - a classic case, then productivity dropped off again in 2010. And, last year he did nothing.

    I just don't think much of this signing for several reasons, including (perhaps especially) what it says about the current group of WRs. I certainly will be hoping he rebounds. But, when you have the low productivity he's had the last four seasons - it's just not anything to get excited about, imo.
     
    gunn34 likes this.
  2. Dolphin1184

    Dolphin1184 Member

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    Big difference between Brandon Marshal and Ocho. Marshal first of all has a serious personality disorder that has no cure no matter how hard he tries. One of the symptoms of this disorder (splitting) is completely contrary to the idea of a team. He also has a history of violence. I had no problem getting rid of him given his baggage.

    Ocho generally has good natured fun with end zone celebrations and the funny things he say to the media. Yes, he is a diva, but hopefully he can produce well this year.
     
    Jcouch1021 likes this.
  3. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I guess it's good to have some vet presence amongst these young cats, but I don't know if Chad is the right guy to exude that awesome veteran leadership or lead by example, etc. Either way, it's still a cheap move, so it shouldn't hurt too much if it doesn't work out.
     
  4. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    Adding the a at the end often refers to female lol good thing he is eight five.
     
  5. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    I agree with what you said about Ocho. Like I said I love the signing, we need better talent at WR.
    I guess Im just still upset that Ireland traded away our best WR for next to nothing. And up until now had done nothing to fill the hole adequetly.
     
  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Once and for all, how much could we have gotten for Marshall and prove it. If you can't, then you can't say we could have gotten more for him. For all you know we got waaaaaay more than the going price was.
     
  7. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You Club Member

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    You gotta keep the massive contract and his questionable behavior in mind too... Not just his talent/potential. This ain't the GML, son. :tongue2:
     
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  8. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    For all those even marginally excited about this signing just keep this in mind: He could double his output from last year and it still wouldn't amount to a hill of beans.

    Now ask yourself how likely that is with a rookie or journeyman QB.
     
  9. NYFinFan

    NYFinFan Member

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    Chad also changed his attitude last year and it didn't seem like he was having fun anymore. Maybe there was also some backstage issues and who knows what the reason for his struggles are. Dude is one of the hardest workers in the nfl, I think he'll get back on track. At least we're bring in a veteran receiver who has actually done something, he'll be able to teach the young guys a thing or 2.
     
  10. DrAstroZoom

    DrAstroZoom Canary in a Coal Mine Luxury Box

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    Actually, it's much more likely with a Garrard or a Tannehill (and to much the same extent, a Matt Moore), who hasn't spent years developing chemistry with an established group of receivers. I don't think Brady ever really wanted to give Ocho a chance; 85 won't have to fight through those entrenched targets in Miami.
     
  11. gunn34

    gunn34 I miss Don & Dan

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    I still think a god WR will be released during Training camp as a money saving move from some team. Then we'll pounce and add more vets.
     
  12. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I don't know, I don't think Brady got to be the first ballot HoF QB that he is today by playing favorites. He's always thrown the ball to the open guy. Ocho was just open much less than the established guys, IMO. I'm not completely discounting what you're saying, and there is a chance Ocho could improve if the routes are less complicated in Philbin's offense. I just don't see Ocho being anything more than someone interesting to watch in Hard Knocks this season.
     
  13. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    Obviously I dont know. But if all we could get was 2 3rds, then keep him until u at least get offered what you pay.
    And at the very least, if you feel you must trade him, have a plan to replace him other than drafting 2 guys in the 7th round.
     
  14. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    I sure as hope you are right about that.
     
  15. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    He's not a classic car that will appreciate in value as time goes on...quite the opposite.

    If any two guys put up 500 yrds and 3 TDs each, then consider Marshall's production replaced.
     
  16. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    With the possible exception of Ocho, I dont believe any of the new guys we have brought will put up those numbers.
    And its not just the numbers, its the fact the teams had to roll coverage to Marshall, no WR we have right now warrants any extra attention.
     
  17. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Not really. That logic assumes Miami's other receivers accomplished nothing last season. To consider Marshall's production adequately replaced, IMO, you have to factor in his receiving yards and TDs plus the rest of the team's receiving yards and TDs.

    That said, if Miami has players that can account for Marshall's 1214 yards and 6 TDs, and also have players that can contribute at least 2,211 yards and 14 additional receiving TDs, only then can you consider his talent truly replaced.
     
  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    People keep talking about Marshall pulling extra coverage.....but what did that do for us exactly? Were their other receivers getting a lot of touches? Were we scoring at will? Was our record impressive? Seriously, in what tangibly beneficial way did Marshall's extra coverage benefit us? Basically its like bragging about the benefits of a bullet proof vest but never being around gun fire.
     
  19. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    No. Marshall doesn't get credit for everything. If anything, an argument could be made that Bess and Hartline would have had better numbers without Marshall. They did before.
     
  20. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If he's really determined to recapture his glory, and our intentions were in the right place when we signed him, then Chad will be the most boring subject on hard knocks, all the footage will be of him showing the world he is there to work on his craft and nothing else..

    The whole show should be a big F&@$ you to all the misconceptions of our franchise..He should be no different, and if he has a problem with being tight lipped and all about football, then he should be cut at the first sign of Ochocinco, and given opportunity if he wants to be Chad Johnson.
     
  21. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I'm not trying to give Marshall credit for everything. But if he's the only starting WR we lose and we retain the rest of the core, then it stands to reason that to replace his production, you need to actually replace his production, minus everything that wasn't his production.

    Do you really think it's rational to say any 2 WRs can have 500 yard season and 3 TDs each and that will be replacing Marshall's production? What if there is only 700 other receiving yards and 4 other TDs amongst the other players? That would mean from last year to this year we would have lost 1725 receiving yards and 10 receiving TDs.

    I'm not suggesting Marshall cannot be replaced. I'm just saying it's not as simple as 2 other players equaling his receiving and TD totals from last year. If your statement about Bess and Hartline holds true, and I think it's a reasonable assumption, that can make up for part of, but not all of Marshall's production. For example, if they both have 800 yards, well then you can say that approximately 500 - 600 yards of Marshall's production has been replaced. But not all. See what I'm saying?
     
  22. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    [video=youtube;0H0a01fgJgs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H0a01fgJgs[/video]
     
  23. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    [table="width: 400, class: grid"]
    [tr]
    [td]
    2009​
    [/td]

    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    NAME​
    [/td]
    [td]
    REC​
    [/td]
    [td]
    YRDS​
    [/td]
    [td]
    TDS​
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Bess[/td]
    [td]76[/td]
    [td]758[/td]
    [td]2[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Hartline[/td]
    [td]31[/td]
    [td]506[/td]
    [td]3[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Ginn[/td]
    [td]38[/td]
    [td]454[/td]
    [td]2[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    TOTAL​
    [/td]
    [td]145[/td]
    [td]1718[/td]
    [td]7[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    [table="width: 400, class: grid"]
    [tr]
    [td]
    2011​
    [/td]

    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    NAME​
    [/td]
    [td]
    REC​
    [/td]
    [td]
    YRDS​
    [/td]
    [td]
    TDS​
    [/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Bess[/td]
    [td]51[/td]
    [td]537[/td]
    [td]3[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Hartline[/td]
    [td]34[/td]
    [td]549[/td]
    [td]1[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]Marshall[/td]
    [td]81[/td]
    [td]1214[/td]
    [td]6[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]
    TOTAL​
    [/td]
    [td]166[/td]
    [td]2300[/td]
    [td]10[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    So basically, the difference in production for our 3 starting WRs, between the "great" Marshall or the "horrible" Ginn is only:
    21 receptions, 582 yrds and 3 TDs.

    Oh and that's with better QB play too. So for that difference in production, we got 2 x 3rd round picks.

    So like I said, if you have a 4th WR that can contribute, like Camarillo did in 2009 (50 rec, 552 yrds 0 TDs), then the difference in production is:
    +29 receptions, 30 yrds and 3 TDs.
     
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  24. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    I think it is fair that the increase in production for Hartline, Clay, Egnew and one of the newer guys could offset Marshall's production.

    I also believe there is a great chance for them to be more efficient. Marshall did not have a good throw to catch ratio.
     
    smahtaz likes this.
  25. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If Ocho gets us 600+ yards and we spread the wealth around to the other receivers a la Joe the Plumber we'll be golden.

    :D

    More bess, more hartline, more clay, etc. etc.

    Before Randy Moss Tom Brady did very well with a bunch of crap. We don't have Tom Brady. I know. But we can have an effective offense without a #1 wr which IMO, along with LT, is so overrated.

    It all starts with our QB play.
     
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  26. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I don't know why you're mentioning 2009 when you're talking about replacing Marshall's 2011 production in 2012. Your statement was that 2 receivers simply totaling 500 yards and 3 TD each would replace Marshall's production. I'm saying you have to factor in the entire team's production. I'm not saying it isn't possible.
     
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  27. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I'm not arguing it isn't possible. I think it is. I'm just saying that extra production has to come from somewhere. It's isn't just as easy as 2 receivers totaling Marshall's production from last year and we can consider him replaced. The other guys would have to step up and fill in that missing yardage.
     
  28. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Huh?

    I'm showing you that what you're saying is incorrect. You claimed Marshall's production was beneficial to the team and I've shown it wasn't. Its been claimed that Bess/Hartline benefited from Marshall, the numbers prove otherwise.
    Its been said that Marshall's production improved the passing game, the numbers show by very, very little...21 receptions, 582 yrds and 3 TDs, to be exact. The numbers also show that 2 receivers can (and did) sub for Marshall and Bess & Hartline's production went up overall.

    I guess you're just not understanding the numbers I've given.
     
  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Again look at the numbers I provided. 2 receivers (Ginn & Camarillio) + Bess & Hartline combined for all of 30 less yards than Bess & Hartline + Marshall. So these missing yards you're worried about aren't really there.
     
  30. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

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    If the two receivers had zero yards last season, then we could consider hime replaced. I don't know how likely that is. I do think the passing yards will be about the same this year as it was last season.
     
  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Monst-
    Let me try again:

    Bess/Hartline had just under 200 more yrds combined without Marshall. So that plus, 2 x WR getting 500yrds and 3 TDS each = about 1200 yrds and 6 TDs. Marshall's production last year was about 1200 yrds & 6 TDs.
     
  32. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't agree with your accounting.

    You're trying to find the difference between Ted Ginn and Brandon Marshall but you're slipping in any year-to-year differences in play from Henne, Hartline and Bess...essentially using the Ginn-to-Marshall difference as a catch-all or remainder function. It's not wise accounting.

    Here's the reality. Tedd Ginn in 2009 was in on 355 pass snaps. He produced the aforementioned 454 yards and 1 TD on 73 attempts in his direction. Brandon Marshall in 2011 was in on 535 pass snaps. He produced 1214 yards and 6 TDs on 138 targets.

    Ginn produced 1.28 yards for every pass snap. Marshall produced 2.27 yards for every pass snap. Ginn produced 6.22 yards for every target, Marshall produced 8.80 yards for every target. Both differences are pretty significant, IMO.
     
  33. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Except, it was a response to the fact that you could have 2 WR's who each get 500yrds and 3 TDs to make up for Marshall's production. Basically, even with your accounting, 2 Ginns = 1 Marshall (numbers wise or close), so my point stands.
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Incorrect. Again, your accounting is off. Two Ted Ginns would require 710 pass snaps. Brandon Marshall only needed 535 pass snaps to produce what he produced.

    Your view on this is simplistic in the extreme.
     
  35. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    Again, you want to make this about obscure numbers when this was simply about can his yards be replaced and how much impact did he have on other receivers. Now sure you can bang your drum and claim comparing Marshall to Ginn is bunk, because Marshall has twice the vowels in his last name, but that isn't really why I posted the numbers I did.
     
  36. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I like the fact that Chad is only 34 years old, and will be so all season, born in January..he's younger than I thought..My only hope is that he's been real serious in the gym this offseason, because for me, him slacking on his strength training is the main reason for his descent, and at 34, with the right kind of intensity, the body can respond very well.
     
  37. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    It opened up the run game a little bit and help Reggie Bush become a 1000 yard rusher.
    Subtracting Brandon Marshall from the offense and not replacing him with anyone substantial makes the offense worse, I don't understand how you can think otherwise.
     
  38. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    I've provided numbers. Look at 2009. We ran just fine and no one near the talent of Marshall. We were not significantly better last year then 2009 in any real way. In 2009 we had 5400 total offensive yards without Marshall and worse QB play. Last year? Only 5000.

    Again, you keep saying we'll be worse, but we weren't.
     
  39. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Just because the numbers do not support your view does not all the sudden make them "obscure". You seemed pretty number-friendly when you were under the false impression the numbers supported your case.
     
  40. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

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    lol. They don't support my argument, because they don't have anything to do with my argument. We all get it, you are numbers guy. Its your bread and butter. Awesome for you.

    For example, I could point out we had a better W-L record in 2009. That doesn't support your numbers about Marshall's importance last year. So, I could just toss that stat out there to prove you're wrong. We both know though, that stat isn't part of what we're talking about so it doesn't prove anything....just like you tried to do.
     

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