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Vick to the Jets

Discussion in 'AFC East Rivals' started by aagarcia, Mar 21, 2014.

  1. 666Dog

    666Dog New Member

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    It's one thing to dog fight. It's one thing to put an injured, suffering animal down. It's one thing to quickly kill an animal that you deem no good to your business.

    It's an entirely different thing to torture animals until they die. If he just wanted to get rid of them he could have shot them all. Instead he chose some of the most painful, slowest ways to kill. Other than fire, which who knows, maybe he went there too, I can't think of a worse way to die than some of the ways he killed those dogs.

    All dogs are capable of biting or having human aggression. One thing is for certain... people who breed fighting dogs want a huge prey drive and NO human aggression. It's not an exact science though. This is why most pit bulls are not human aggressive unless they are taught to be that way. Up until the 1960's the pit bull was the most popular breed of dog in the U.S. It was nicknamed the "nanny dog" due it's temperament with children.

    The American Temperament Test Society has conducted the largest breed specific temperament testing in the world. They test aggression on all breeds of dogs and post the results on their website.

    The American Pit Bull has an 87% pass rate.

    GOLDEN RETRIEVER-- 85%

    Labs- 92%

    http://atts.org/


    Vick is a sociopath. He's making amends because he was caught. He still sees nothing wrong in what he did.
     
    dolphindebby and Fin D like this.
  2. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No, I'm sure they hung, electrocuted, shot, beat, etc those dogs for science. Think it through, why would they use different methods of execution, if not for fun?

    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you need to know how plugged in I am to the world of animals and rescues before we continue. My wife runs a farm animal sanctuary and she's vegan. We volunteer at an exotic animal rescue and an honest to god pitbull rescue. I frequently go to animal abuse protests, including anti circus protests.

    I have 7 dogs, 5 cats, 3 tortoises & 2 turtles as personal pets, all of which have were rescues. We've hand raised piglets in our house rescued from factory farms. Our spare bathroom is often a chicken hospital if one becomes sick at my wife's work and needs round the clock care. I personally built a wheelchair for a baby goat that was born without the use of her legs.

    I know all about animal fights and factory farms and they have nothing to do with one another. The horrific nature of factory farms no more lessens what Vick did, then the heinous acts of Hitler no more lessens the acts of Ted Bundy.

    Most fighting dogs are absolutely not human aggressive. A small few are, especially if they've been fighting for a long time. Most of the dogs rescued form Vick are in loving homes. I never said the dogs he killed were rolling around on the floor with him though, not sure where you got that. I said they were like other dogs and just wanted to please their master. There's a dog at the pitbull rescue, her name is Angelina. She has permanent scars around her mouth and legs from the duct tape that was used on her. She was a bait dog. She's never done anyone any harm and only wants to be around people.

    Now back to what he did, specifically the torturing of those dogs. Disposing of a fighting dog can be done with a simple bullet to the head. its quick & painless and cheap & easy. Switching it up, as they did, and using varying methods can only be for one reason...they were enjoying it. You don't purposely electrocute a dog for any other reason than you enjoy doing it. His crimes were many. He didn't fly off the handle in a moment of passion. He didn't get drunk and do something stupid. He built and maintained a small criminal racket based on abusing animals. He even tortured animals beyond the scope of his criminal enterprise. He then went on to lie to the judge about it all. People are pissed because his punishment was less than his crime. You may not agree, but the people who are outraged, like myself and friends, believe he shouldn't have been allowed back into the NFL (and yes, we feel the same way about Big Rape, Hernandez, etc.) and we don't believe the laws are hard enough on abusers like Vick.
     
  3. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    FinD. I am not ready to make that leap of faith that they did it for personal amusement. I'm just not.

    I have never owned a Pit Bull Terrier, but I believe certain breeds need more socialization as puppies than others. The Pit Bull Terrier is one of them. I know you are the expert, FinD, but wouldn't you say the consequences of not properly socializing a Pit Bull Terrier are potentially far worse than the consequences of not properly socializing an English Setter? They were initially bred to be used in bloodsports in England and then eventually bred to be used in dog fighting (pit fighting). Aggressiveness is in their breeding, no? The consequences of not socializing a Pit Bull Terrier as a puppy could include a very defensive and animal aggressive adult Pit Bull. I believe that people that chose to own a Pit Bull Terrier should go above and beyond what is normally considered the usual dog training. But far too many don't and what you end up with is a dog that will make every visitor in your home uncomfortable and a dog that has a good chance of tearing into someone else's pet, like when my father in-law's Golden Retriever got torn up in a dog park by a Pit Bull Terrier. Bad dog? Not necessarily. Bad owner? Most definitely. I know someone quoted temperament testing results, but look at how many times Pit Bull Terriers have been involved in attacks, including children. It lays dormant in their breeding and certain steps need to be taken to ensure it stays dormant.

    When I decided upon a Bullmastiff as my next dog, the first thing I did was a ton of research. I read books and talked to people who owned or had owned them. Then I found a reputable breeder. Before I was able to even visit, I had to do a phone interview with him. He wanted to know that I had a basic understanding of the breed. Once that was completed, I had to schedule a visit with my entire family (wife and two kids). At his house, we were introduced to the puppies as well as a full grown male and female Bullmastiff. The entire time he and his wife were asking me questions and watching how we interacted with all of the dogs. After about an hour he decided that we were candidates to own one of his dogs. And one of the may things that stuck with me is when he told me that under no circumstances should I EVER train the dog to guard. He said there was no need. It is in their breeding. If a time comes where there is a need to guard, he said the dog will. No training required. He also told me to socialize him to the extreme. He told me to bring him with me in public places as much as humanly possible. He told me to have him interact with as many other animals as I could. He said to do this for months and months. He said that if I didn't socialize my Bullmastiff, I would end up with a dog that I would have to lock in a room if I had company over. And I would most likely end up with an animal aggressive pet. So I followed his advice. I took Cooper everywhere with me. I took him to work. I took him to the mall. I took him to the park. I invited people to come over and pet him. I let him play with dogs. I attended 16 weeks of training classes (puppy and advanced) in a group setting. As a result, he is the best dog I have ever owned. He will welcome anyone into the house. He will let anyone approach him when I am walking him. He loves to meet new people. He gets along with my two cats. He's never had an incident with another dog. And the one time I saw him guard, it was in a situation where he should have guarded.

    I know I went off in a tangent :D I think there should be some sort of course people should be required to take before dog ownership, especially when you are dealing with a breed that was once bred to guard or fight. I do believe there are no such things as bad dogs, just bad owners. But the consequences of a bad owner of a Pit Bull Terrier can be fatal.

    I am not defending Michael Vick. However I won't stop rooting for my team because he is on it. The league made a decision to reinstate him and there is nothing any of us can do about that. Some people say he isn't sorry for what he did and he will go right back to it once he is done with football. I like to believe that he is and he won't. I will continue to believe that until I see otherwise.
     
  4. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    There's simply no other plausible reason for the torture, then they enjoyed it.

    As far as your question about pit bulls, no not at all. there is nothing wrong with the breed. believe me, I used to be an advocate for eradicating the breed. I was wrong. Pit bulls were historically nanny dogs...that is dogs left with children to protect them and alert the parents if there was a problem. Petey in Little Rascals was a pit bull and he was chose specifically because at the time, the pit bull was America's dog. The consequences of any big dog (by big dog I mean anything bigger than say beagle) with a bad owner could be fatal. Pit bulls are no different in that regard then any other big dog. In fact, the reason pit bulls were turned into fighting dogs was because they so desperately want to please their masters. The problem is a self fulfilling prophecy at this point. Pit bulls are given a bad name so bad people want pit bulls to appear bad. Golden retrievers bite people more frequently than pit bulls do. One of the worst behaved and hardest to train dogs is the dalmatian. Pound for pound the most ferocious dog is the dachshund.

    The first dog in my life was our Great Dane, Thor. massive dog...22 inch around neck. Well over 200 lbs. He would instinctively sleep in my room by my crib and if I made a noise that didn't seem right he woke up my mom. I had a bad temperature at night one time, the only reason my mom knew was because Thor went and woke her up. Amazing dog. However, when he saw a German Shepard, he had to try and kill it. We believe he was attacked by one when he was a small pup, he had a scar on his nose he got before us. Point being, you never hear of Marmaduke trying to kill, and yet there he was, well trained and perfectly happy.

    The league let him in and the courts let him off, doesn't mean I like it and I likely never will. Somethings, are more important to me than football, and murdering, raping and animal cruelty are at least 3 of those things. (Nutella is a fourth, but that's not relevant right now:pointlol:)
     
    666Dog likes this.
  5. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    Guard dogs have guarding in their breeding. Bird and hunting dogs have tracking and flushing in their breeding. Working breeds like Border Collies have a specific trait in their breeding, like herding. To say that Pit Bull Terriers are the same as any other dog is not true. My friend had a Border Collie that would act so funny if his family sat in different chairs than their usual ones. He would bug the crap out of the offender until they moved. It was the dog's breeding that gave it its need to organize. My Bully couldn't care less where his family sat :D I had an English Setter that would never act aggressive under any circumstances. Someone could force their way into my house and it wouldn't do squat. And as I said earlier, my Bully was never trained to guard. But when someone came to my door that I didn't feel comfortable with, he went into a mode that I only saw that on time. I was upset and he instantly picked up on that. And there was no way that person was getting past him and into my house. The Bullmastiff was bred to assist game wardens in England. They were used by the game wardens to catch poachers, not kill them. The English Mastiff was too slow. The English Bulldog was too aggressive. It would end up killing the poachers before the game warden arrived. They then experimented with the cross breeding of the two breeds until they had the right combination. They ended up with a breed that was agile enough to catch the poacher, but not so aggressive that they would kill them. They would hold their prey. This is what guarding is. If someone who was unwelcome forced their way into my home, my dog would subdue them. While they would be bit, the Bullmastiff's goal is to grab and hold down the intruder, not tear the crap out of them.

    So what is my point? Breeding. To deny that Pit Bull Terriers were bred for over a hundred years to fight is nuts. To deny that instinct is there is simply foolish. Sure a Golden will bite. Any dog will. But Pit Bull Terriers tend to do more than bite. Christ, just check the numbers. If I had a choice between being on the receiving end of a Bullmastiff or a Pit Bull Terrier, I am choosing Bullmastiff every time for the simple fact that they weren't bred to kill. I am not saying that they aren't an acceptable breed. Personally, I do not care for the look, but they are loving and caring dogs that make perfect pets, provided you train and socialize them properly. Face it, FinD. Most people don't train their for crap. Most people's pets won't even sit. A breed like the Pit Bull Terrier should be trained properly. Sit, lay down, stay, leave it and most importantly, come. My dogs know all of them, including hand signals. Who wants a 140 pound dog that doesn't listen to you?

    A dog is a pack animal. A dog like a Bullmastiff will have no problem assuming the pack leader position if you let it. Every dog should know its place in the pack order and that place should always be below every human in the family. Simple as that. That's why I had my 9 year old daugher (at the time) make Cooper sit, stay, lay down, etc. He knows where his place is within the pack. No dog of mine will ever sleep in my bed. I go through doors first. When I walk him in the neighborhood he is at my side.

    Bottom line. A Pit Bull Terrier is not a good dog for someone who doesn't plan on training it properly. It's like buying a Corvette for a 16 year old boy. They might be fine, but the chances of getting into an accident are exponentially higher.
     
  6. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    P.S. My parent's had a Great Dane when I was born. Great dog that was gentle as a lamb around my brothers and I. I would definitely consider one in the future.
     
  7. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    With all due respect, you're just flat out wrong about the pit bull in that there's something wrong with the breed.

    I encourage you to actually read up on the breed instead of cobbling together newspaper clips.

    http://www.cesarsway.com/dogbehavior/basics/How-Did-Pit-Bulls-Get-a-Bad-Rap

    http://www.salon.com/2013/02/05/in_defense_of_the_pitbull_partner/
    There's lots and lots more. Most of this started in the 80s. Hell, a dog that was bred for fighting for over a 100 years was the Boston Terrier and they are just fine now.

    Bottom line no dog is good for someone who doesn't plan on training it properly. Especially any dog bigger than a beagle. In fact, the main things that all dog owners can do is neuter to help prevent dog bites.
     
    666Dog likes this.
  8. dolphindebby

    dolphindebby Season Ticket Holder Luxury Box

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    My daughter has a pit named Tebow.
    He came up to our house and she took him home with her.
    She took him to the vet and he had a big stick down in his throat. The vet took it out and said he just wimpered and didn't try to bite or any thing.
    He our families dog. He lays on his back and wrestles with the kids
    He plays with my daughters cat and played with my sons dauchands (sp)
    No one can tell me they are born to kill it's how you raise them.
    He's a great big baby.
    And I'm sure some of those that he killed were the same.
     
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  9. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    The Pit Bull Terrier has the potential to do more damage than any other breed. Their bite pressure and plus their sheer tenacity are unmatched in dogdom. If you want to believe that a Golden Retriever or a Boston Terrier is capable of doing the kind of damage a Pit Bull Terrier is capable of, then I am at a loss. I never said there was anything "wrong" with the breed. My contention is that an uncontrolled Pit Bull Terrier is capable of doing more harm than any other breed. So it is essential that it is well trained and socialized. I agree that ALL dogs should be well trained and socialized, however the possible consequences of an untrained/unsocialized Pit Bull Terrier are far worse than that of an untrained/unsocialized Cockapoo. I don't see where I am saying there is anything wrong with the breed. I never said they were born to kill. I said they were once bred to kill and they are physically built to be the best at it. FinD - you must have seen a Pit Bull Terrier attack another dog, no? Have you ever seen a breed that can do more damage?

    Cliffnotes: I never said there was something wrong with the breed. My contention is that they are physically capable of doing more harm than any other breed so EXTRA care should be taken when owning one. Nothing can be said to me that will make me think otherwise.
     
  10. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You are not really reading what I'm saying if you think I said Boston terriers can do the same damage as a pit bull. I was pointing out that Boston's were bred for fighting. That's why the breed was created and they are far from that now.

    I cannot stress enough, your facts are just wrong. Pit bulls don't have more bite pressure (nor can they "lock their jaw") than any other dog its size. Any dog a pit bull's size or bigger can do serious damage if treated incorrectly. It juts appears that pit bulls are worse because the people who are willing to do harm to other people or don't care, tend to get pit bulls because of their rep. A poorly trained bullmastiff could do more damage to a person than a pit bull, as could a great dane, st benard, german shepard, rotty, etc. Again, this negative stuff about pits started in just the 80's. If bad people decided German Shepherds were hardcore, then ****ty people would get them and raise them wrong and then all we'd hear is that sheperds are more likely to attack and kill. And yes, I've seen all kinds of dogs fight, but of you think a pit bull fight is more ferocious and harder to stop than a fight between a German and 200+lb great dane, I don't know what to tell you.

    I genuinely wish you'd actually read the links I posted or do your own research, instead of making the assumptions you have. The pit bull issue is a perfect example of hype creating reality.
     
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  11. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    Thank you for the links and I will certainly look into them. Cooper says hello.

    [​IMG]
     
    Fin D likes this.
  12. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    He is beautiful. He doesn't look like a super slobbery one either.
     
  13. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    Thank you. He's a great dog...best I've ever owned. He is not slobbery at all. He doesn't drool. He can be messy when he drinks though. Seems like a good pint of water gets hung up in his mouth when he walks away from the water bowl, lol :D But as a rule they do not drool like an English Mastiff or Bloodhound.
     
    Fin D likes this.
  14. McLovin

    McLovin Resident Pats fan.

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    i know thats your Tom Brady fathead in the fed ex tube.
     
  15. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    True! I put it on Cooper's favorite tree so he can piss on it :D
     
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  16. Pagan

    Pagan Metal & a Mustang

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    Matt Moore doesn't put asses in the seats, Michael Vick does. The NFL is a business, and the Jets need to sell those luxury boxes. Vick will be starting the first bad game Geno has.
     
  17. 666Dog

    666Dog New Member

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    Before the pit bull it was the Rottweiler. Before the Rott it was the German Shepard. Before the German Shepard it was the Doberman.

    As FinD alluded to, when scum of the earth need a "bad" dog to look "bad" they get what looks the baddest and mistreats or trains them to be human aggressive. It just so happens that it's the Pit Bull today. Mark my words, in the near future another breed will get this label.
     
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  18. BicketyBam

    BicketyBam No Fist Pumps Allowed

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    Was it Rottweilers in the graveyard scene in the original Omen? That movie scared the crap out of me when I was a kid. And I think Doberman came after the German Shepard.
     
  19. 54Fins

    54Fins "In Gase we trust"

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    over there
    Eagles got the better QB. That's really sad...:lol:
     
  20. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    All you Sally's who are worried about Vick.. :(

    THIS IS THE BEST NEWS EVER!

    I know the players and coaches can't do "bounties " anymore but can fans? Ill throw in a few hundo for the guy who ends that bastards career.
    I guarantee ill buy your Jersey and you'll be my favorite dolphin since 54.

    And if anybody knows the PA guy he should play the who let the dogs out song every time that evil sob takes the field.

    Have I mentioned I really don't like that puppy killing father mocker? Putting a jester uni on him makes it a HOLY WAR!
     
  21. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    And the saddest thing is dogs were put on earth to teach people how to love. We just cant do it doggie style.
     

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