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(Video) Joe Philbin Penalty Fail

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Mainge, Sep 16, 2014.

  1. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    In the video the officials have a conference (wtf they were discussing who knows) then one looks at Philbin for the decision and says "First down, right?" As if it was a no brainer type of decision. There is no God dam way anybody can infer from that that there were two separate first down options on the table and Philbin chose the lesser one. And furthermore, when they had the conference you'd think they got it right as a group.
     
  2. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Can you see if it is the Line Judge #107, and not the Head Linesman #36? If so, #107 is the same stinking *** hole who screwed us royally in the 2009 Saints game.
     
  3. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I honestly do not believe you are pulling it out of thin air. I am glad you posted it. Gives us something else to talk about than the final 2:20 of the 1st half.

    From just that video though, I cannot tell for sure what happened. The catch is on the far side and they never show a replay from a different angle of Gibson.
     
  4. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    From what I can see, the HL threw the flag, and the LJ goes to mark the spot.
     
  5. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    You are right on the yardage.
     
  6. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    The HL and the LJ line up on opposite sides of the field on the LOS at the start of the play. Most likely the side judge or field judge, whichever one was on that side of the field, flagged Graham for holding Wallace.
    The HL is on the visitors sideline and the LJ is on the home sideline. Since the pass to Gibson occurred on the visitors sideline, it would be the HL or the Side Judge who lines up 20 yards downfield on the same side as the HL that blew the whistle early, and probably the side judge who flagged Graham.
     
  7. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    It is #107

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    God damn that son of a *****! He screwed Miami again! He should just crawl in a hole somewhere and die.

    Since that old blind bastard blew the whistle early, Gibson is obviously short of the 1st down marker. So Philbin really had no option but take the penalty.
     
  9. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Game Book's play by play is wrong though anyway. The gain was 13 yards to the 25, not 11 yards to the 27.

     
  10. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    I'm with Ck, this was close, I don't think it was a clear first down, but was close. 107 looked like was about to spot it just short, and it was ruled short, so I don't know how it officially ended up an 11 yard gain, it was certainly around a 15 yard gain. We definitely did not get a favorable spot on the field.
    Clark has a point about requesting measurement, but I'm not sure JP can accept the penalty afterwards. Again, I'd rather have 1st and 10 than 3rd and short.
    I don't think it was a coaching mishap. 1st and 10 is better than anything we'd have gotten other than 1st ad 10 at 23, and that was doubtful.
     
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  11. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    It was a gain of 15-16 yards.
     
  12. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Regardless of the yards gained, in your pic you can see Gibson on the ground at the 25, and the 1st down marker 2 yards down field at the 23.

    In your link, you can see the LOS was the 38. Gibson in your pic above is on the ground at the 25. That adds up to a 13 yard gain.

    Gibson in the video makes it to the 23, but comes back on his own to the 25.
     
  13. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    Yup, at 25 is when they blew the whistle, and he was untouched.
     
  14. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    Forward progression is a thing and it matters.

    [​IMG]

    This is where the ball should be spotted. Where he rolls after he lands is irrelevant.
     
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  15. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    He came back on his own. Forward progress would matter if he was hit by a defender and pushed back. That didn't happen. He wasn't touched.
    There should not have been a whistle declaring him down, but once there was, the mark would be where he was at that time.

    Obviously in the past, you must have seen a receiver make a catch and have 1st down yardage, and then give ground on their own in an attempt to make a bigger play, and then end up losing the 1st down. I can recall Bess doing that a few times. The same thing applies here. No defender pushed Gibson back. He gave ground on his own, even if he did not intend to.
     
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  16. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    Right but he did not give up ground by his own choosing. His momentum from falling after the catch brings him back. There's a difference.

    It's why when a defender intercepts a football on the one or two yard line and falls backwards into the endzone, it's not a safety. It's only a safety if the defender himself chooses to give up that ground and runs into the endzone himself. It's the same principal.
     
  17. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you guys just give up. You've been proven wrong. Its over.

    1. clearly the spot was short of the first. It was an absolutely ridiculous premise that Philbin decided to choose the first down that resulted in less yards. Just go to 1:05 of the video, you can clearly hear the ref say "first down, right?" in a way that suggests there was really no option at all.

    2. Forward progress only counts if you were touched. It doesn't get much more simple than that. Why they spotted the ball where they did, why they blew the whistle in the first place, who the **** knows. They just ****ed up.

    3. I don't know what rock you crawled out from under but it should be common knowledge that they don't like changing the spot, the announcers mention it every time there is a challenge involving the spot. The refs need a clear and precise landmark to overturn the call on the field, if its just grass even if they think they got the spot wrong they won't move it because its impossible to tell exactly at which blade of grass to spot it. And camera angles can be tricky. And unless things have changed they aren't allowed to use technology to help them determine the spot, they don't even have sound so they wouldn't be able to hear the whistle which further complicates things in this instance.


    Finally, you Philbin detractors should really try to choose your battles more wisely because you are losing credibility fast. If you're wrong about this maybe you're wrong about everything, including Philbin. The record is enough and all the ammo you need. When you try to embellish beyond the record you open yourself up to debate and quite often in your attempts to make Philbin look dumb you just end up making yourselves look dumb.

    I bid you good day.
     
  18. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Supposedly this may have been ruled an incompletion, so it could be a moot point. But its a good opportunity to look at the two potential scenarios:


    1st and 10 from the 33:
    Win Probability: 15%
    Expected Points: +3.10
    First Down Prob.: 67%
    TD Prob.: 36%
    FG Prob.: 32%

    3rd and 2 from the 25:
    Win Probability: 16%
    Expected Points: +3.10
    First Down Prob.: 57%
    TD Prob.: 24%
    FG Prob.: 42%

    Technically, accepting the penalty would have had a slight increase in win probability, but they are almost identical situations.
     
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  19. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral Staff Member

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    There was a play in the first half, can't remember the specifics, where one of the refs on the top sideline (from the TV angle) messed up royally.... we were headed from left to right at the time. I'll have to go back and rewatch the short cut to refresh my memory... I can't even remember if we were on o or d :lol:
     
  20. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral Staff Member

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    on forward progress... does it matter that he's going to ground to make the catch?
     
  21. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    Forward progress is when a ball carrier/receiver is resisted and driven back. That was not the case here. the issue is not that he was going to the ground, but that he was untouched.
     
  22. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    That's just a clerical error in the gamebook. They marked it by the wrong 5 yard marker. They meant to record a 16 yard catch.
     
  23. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    This is incorrect. Forward progress also applies to catches where a receiver is airborne.

    According to the rulebook the ball is placed wherever the player "established firm grip and control of the ball while in the air."
     
  24. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral Staff Member

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    I guess I'm just trying to come up with something from the refs point of view, to cover for their mistake. Did they think he was touched? We need to get this one on NFLN with Dean Blandino (sp)...
     
  25. TooGoodForDez

    TooGoodForDez Deion Sanders for GM

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    A forward pass is complete . . . if a player, who is inbounds:
    (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
    (b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
    (c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

    It's basically where they spot it, or in this case where they ruled it dead.

    Also:

    Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact
    by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone.

    Forward Part of Ball. The forward part of the ball in its position when it is declared dead in the field of play shall be the determining point in measuring any distance gained or lost. The ball shall be rotated so that its long axis is parallel to the sidelines before measuring, while maintaining the forward most point.
    Note: When an airborne player of either team completes a catch or interception inbounds after an opponent has driven him backward, the ball is declared dead, and forward progress is awarded at the spot where the player established firm grip and control of the ball while in the air.


    We can conclude that was a smart play by the DB, not to touch Gibson.
     
  26. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    There may have been a clerical error but in my view the 16 yard number was made up out of thin air to support your nonsensical theory.
     
  27. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    They whistled him down by contact. There may not have actually been contact but the whistle signified that there was. Therefore the rule about forward progress of an airborne player making a catch applies. The ball is spotted at the place where he "established firm grip and control of the ball while in the air."

    The conclusion that it was "smart" for the player not to touch Gibson is completely misguided and absurd. By all rights Gibson should have scored a touchdown due to that "decision".
     
  28. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    He may have thought there was contact which is likely why he blew the whistle but if another official said there was no contact then it simply becomes an inadvertent whistle at that point and where the ball is at the whistle is where it gets spotted.
     
  29. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    If you watch the video, thats not an 11 yard catch. Someone made a mistake. ***EDIT**** And don't be a jerk. Come on man.
     
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  30. PhinFan1968

    PhinFan1968 Rosen's Roughnecks Club Member

    Seemed pretty clear to me, if it's 2nd and 15, and Gibby catches it a yard past the first, that comes out to 16 yards.
     
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  31. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    I find it interesting that you made this about Philbin Detractor vs Supporters when you'll find no where in the original post or my post history anything close to me calling for him to lose his job.
     
  32. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    I assume its your video, titled "Joe Philbin can't math gud." I inferred that you think Philbin is a moron based on the theory that he actually had another choice to take a free 10 yards and the first down, and he chose wrong. As you can clearly see in that video he really didn't have that choice, but just the accusation is pretty insulting in and of itself.

    If thats not your video and I misread the situation, I apologize.
     
  33. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    It's my video. I can't see anything clearly besides what the video clearly shows. Nothing about it has been proven wrong, despite your claim. It's a dumb video title that you really shouldn't take as some secret meaning about my opinion of his coaching competence. I'm fairly sure Jim Harbaugh can't count to 7, but that doesn't make him a bad football coach.
     
  34. roy_miami

    roy_miami Well-Known Member

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    The ref looks at Philbin and says "You want the first down, right?" That is in the video and I've highlighted the exact time.

    How else can you interpret that other than there was only one first down option? If there were two first down options wouldn't he have asked something like "which first down do you want, the good one or the bad one?" instead?

    And if the play really did result in a first down he would not have asked Philbin anything, he would have just placed the ball there and carried on. Its a nonsensical theory...
     
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  35. vt_dolfan

    vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Should a been a TD....just sayin..ref premature ejaculated with his whistle
     
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  36. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    That's fine. The ref could absolutely have erroneously spotted the ball short of the first down. I admit that's completely possible, and would absolutely allow for what you're saying to have happened.

    However there's very clear and irrefutable video evidence that the catch is for first down yardage, and no amount of bolding and font size changes would change that. Philbin then should have challenged it at that point.
     
  37. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Where in the audio/video does the ref look at Philbin and say "you want the first down, right?"
     
  38. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Gibson wasn't airborne. His knee was on the ground, untouched when he caught the ball. He rolls back to the 25 of his own accord. Then the whistle blows. Inadvertent because he was not contacted by a defender. The officials apparently spotted the ball short of the 1st down, giving us the options of 3rd and short at that point, or a 1st down after the 5 yards, at the 33.
     
  39. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    Gibson was airborne when he caught the ball. By your definition a player is never airborne because they all have to land eventually.
     
  40. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Airborne means both feet, entire body, off the ground. I don't know how you can see that being the case with Gibson.
     

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