They developed into passers, but they made their bones with their running, and even then what does "running Qb" mean? And when did "running less" matter? Young has ran less then when he was a Rook but yet, the myth persists. And what a convenient metric "oh, THOSE yrs they ran less"...err...is that like "Young got better players so he played better"? No, my theory is fine, one has had a myth busted, and overlooked that even the guys who did not make the SB and win it, still had winning seasons and won a slew of games to say "oh a running Qb does not win the SB" also ignore the fact that 31 other teams also do not win the SB, what of their pocket passers? Should they be thrown overboard? Odd, I counted 8 trips and 3 wins for "running Qb's" not to mention Championship Games and Divisional Titles etc. I am not wild about Vince Young, not at all, I do think if we can land him we should as Talent is something he has, and this is a Talent Acquisition business. Hmm, actually Gannon was a good Qb before he went to Oakland and led them to two Championship Games And in 2000 he had 470 passing attempts and 89 rushing attempts which right around Young's 5 to 1 ratio, is he a "run first Qb"? http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GannRi00.htm
"or" They added TO and it made less sense for him to generate offense via making plays? They can do both you know... That is one of the options a Qb who can run gives the offense which is why I prefer running ability in a Qb, when everyone is covered and you need a first down they can pick one up, or even break a long run, a pocket passer is not doing that, they throw the ball away.
[/quote]They may have "made their bones as running QB's" (and in the case of a few of those guys I would question whether they were actually running QB's or simply mobile qb's...there is a very distinct difference) but they won nothing while running. I gave you McNabb's stats already in the year they made the SB 2004: 64% completion rate, 31/8 TD/INT rate and only 41 run attempts. Your definition of a running QB is very different then mine. Young runs because he HAS TO! He cant read the defense and doesnt go in to his 3rd and 4th progressions with any regularity. Those other guys you mention ran to escape pressure. Aaron Rodgers did the same thing those cats do. He runs but only when the pressure is on him and there is no better option available. Young runs even when hes not pressured. Mobility and a pure running qb like Young are very very different. Im done running in circles with this.
lol Young came right out of College where he consistantly ran the ball and started out doing the exact same thing. The years when Cunningham ran the most, his lowest attempts passing were the 465 you listed. He was great in the pocket. Vince Young IS NOT! Not a fan of Cam Newton either. Although I do think he will be better than Vince.
Young never is in the pocket. When it even resembles collapsing, he is outside of it 9 times out of 10... Please stop with the misconception thing. It makes me feel like you think you know better. McNabb stayed up in the pocket more times in one game than Vince did in one year.
They may have "made their bones as running QB's" (and in the case of a few of those guys I would question whether they were actually running QB's or simply mobile qb's...there is a very distinct difference) but they won nothing while running. I gave you McNabb's stats already in the year they made the SB 2004: 64% completion rate, 31/8 TD/INT rate and only 41 run attempts.[/QUOTE] IIRC TO had 18 TD receptions that yr? Why would he run when he had a target like that to toss to? Vick was on a two read and run diet in Philly this yr. Like Young does to defenses! My only question is, what is a "running qb"? What does that mean? Do know there is little chance Young comes to Miami, not Sparano's type, though maybe he should be, but with Parcells gone I'm not sure if Sparano would have the juice to really impact Young, not sure Sparano would want to take the time to do so.
Not per his pass v run ratio, personally I think he should have run more often it is his best asset why not use it? Sorry Ozman.
Miami may not have many other choices so you never know. I personally hope they find someone else but with not many bones to pick and one Qb signed you never know.
Take back the run first comment (my fault there) and install not a pocket Qb. Youngs tendancy is to move outside the pocket the minute it collapses.
That I can agree with, and it is a common practice for Defenses to use pressure to force a mobile Qb to their weaker throwing side cutting the field in half and making it much easier to defend. That is a part of the package with one of those guys it is up to the OC to find creative ways to avoid that happening, that is one of the reasons why I think Young would be a fit as Daboll managed to get production out Colt McCoy in Cleveland so why not Young?
In my football gut Ozman, Kyle Orton is the guy they should push for, both players are on the upswing with wildly different skillsets, but I just feel that Orton fits what they "do" to a "T", he'd put this Qb stuff to bed, and he is young enough that this is not a one yr rental, and he does not have the baggage Young has, to me it is a move that has to be made draft pick or no draft pick. My goodness, I think about that..no more Qb drama, no more offseasons of "get a Qb!" for years to come..I think I may need a moment alone...
I'm not buying the yards per game argument--Just because the coach doesn't have him throwing doesn't mean the coach shouldn't have him throwing, and I'm not even referring to the "Fisher sabotaged Vince" argument. Coaches aren't always right, and Fisher is one of the most conservative coaches around (plus they had CJ). In fact, his conservative offensive playcalling is the primary reason Titan fans wanted him gone, and trust me, most wanted him gone. Not coincidentally, he is gone. As for the numbers themselves, let's take a look from a different angle. Taking out the coach's playcalling (not in the QBs control, and not always good decision making), let's compare: In 2009, Vince had 7.3 ypa (13th best in the league), and a 10-7 TD-INT ratio. Henne had a 6.4 ypa (23rd best), with a 12-14 TD-INT ratio. Collins had 5.7 ypa and a 6-8 TD-int ratio. In 2010, Vince had 8 ypa (5th best in the league) and a 10-3 TD-INT ratio. Henne had 6.7 ypa (24th best) and a 15-19 ratio. Collins had 6.56 ypa (25th best) and 14-8 ratio (reduce to a 7-4 ratio for comparison with Vince's). I think the numbers speak for themselves. Not only did Vince throw for more yards per pass, but he also had the best TD-INT ratios both years. Not only that, but the numbers put him near the top of the entire NFL, especially 2010.. So, I guess the question is: Which of these qb's "can't throw the ball and read defenses"? Which one SHOULD be getting more throws and therefore yards/game? As for your other comments--Yes, he beat Oakland, but did their defense change or did they just get beat by a better QB? Either way you can't count that against him. Sure, Vince had a rough game against Pitt, but the Pitt defense has done that to countless guys in the NFL, including the Mannings and Bradys. Vince was 7-10 for 66 yds and 2 INTS. The INTS were obviously bad, but otherwise solid (CJ had 34 yds that game, 2.4 ypc, so they were in a lot of tough situations too). And what did Collins do? Pick on his 1st possession, fumble on the next..he couldn't do squat until Pitt was in a prevent defense and the game was over..then he racked up some stats. But you don't get that from a statsheet do you.. On the Giants game...what?? 10-16 (63%) for 118 yds (7.4 ypa), 1 TD and 0 INTs...in a 19-point win...that's ineffective? Deserves a benching? What does the guy have to do to please you guys? And that must be one of your sub-20 pass attempt games...why throw more with a big lead and CJ? Other sub-20 games include Pitt (pulled), JAX (injury), MIA (didn't start even though he looked healthy), and WASH (injury/benching)..so does that stat really mean anything? In fact, are you talking about 2010? Some of your facts in that 2nd paragraph are completely wrong if so. ex: "2 games under 100 yds playing wire-to-wire"--I see three sub-100 yd games in 2010--Pitt (above benching), JAX (threw 5 passes for 61 yds, went out with a 14-pt lead), and MIA (Collins started and played the whole first half). So zero wire-wire sub 100 games... "pulled out of 4 games from injury (running) or ineffectiveness"-- 1. Pitt..ok 2. JAX..ok, although they were already up 14, 3. WASH??--ok, i guess..he hurt his thumb THROWING a deep ball, which was completed, 4. ????? (he didn't start against miami, even though he ran perfectly well when he came in)
Cmon you can't just conveniently overlook the off the field stuff he's been accused of everything from diva like behavior to threatening suicide to complete mental breakdown. Saying he has never been criminally convicted isn't saying that much, I've known lots of people who aren't criminals but are inept, lazy, stupid and couldn't lead a horse to water. Running Qbs don't get past great defenses, good athletes that can extend plays do well in the NFL but you have to beat great defenses with your head. You think the Steelers or Ravens are sweating Vince Young? They would love to play a team with Young over a guy like Manning or Brady in a heartbeat.
Young's W/L include 7 come from behind wins and 14 GW drives, he shows up at the end of games. And more importantly from my POV is his troubles in TN did not stem from a lack of desire to play, not at all, his problems stemmed from being benched which to me speaks of at least desire and that can be worked with, not caring is the one thing that should never be approached. Posted the list of "running" Qb's make of it what one will.
Over his first 5 seasons in the league Randall ran more than Young has in his 5 seasons. I don't know you can call him a pass first QB, but Young a run first QB. Their individual histories do not support that claim. 368 attempts in 65 games for Randall and 264 in 54 games for Young. 5.66 attempts per game for Randall and 4.88 for Young. In his 6th season, Randall ran another 118 times, which raised his per game avg to 6 attempts. Until he was 30 yrs old, Randall ran a lot. Much more than Young has to this point. Young has only gone over 500 yds as a rookie. Until he was 30, Randall went over 500 yds in 6 seasons, went over 600 yds in 3 of the 6 and over 900 yds in one season. Young has a ways to go before he can be as prolific a runner as Randall was.
Thats a pretty rosy picture of Young's problems in Tenn. If he causes problems just because he isn't starting then why do we want him? What if he can't learn the offense and Henne beats him out? Then we get Vince Young on suicide watch as a backup Qb? This is seriously worth risking for a coaching staff that is on thin ice? Can't see it happening.
Interesting isn't it? That is a perception that people have about Young that simply is not accurate. Now it can also be said that Randall was a more productive passer then Young, he was also tossing the ball to Chris Carter and Keith Byars, Young did not have a good target until Ken Britt developed this yr which is the same as McNair, whose leading Wr typically had about 700 yds per yr.
The suicide stuff was bull**** to be frank about it, no substance to it, as for his problems about not starting is the Henne stoic approach somehow more preferrable? When Young injured his thumb on a helmet v the Redskins he was ready to go back into the game, Fisher opted for Rusty Smith, a 6th Rook from Florida Atlantic, to try to win the game in a must win for the Titans playoff drive, imo Fisher could not have more clearly said "**** you" to Vince Young what was Young supposed to do? "Thanks for believing in me coach, I'll get'm next yr"?
I'm not sure how we got to the point where we can be selective about the style of QBs we have. Vince Young threw TDs twice as often as as Chad Henne. He threw a lot less interceptions. While he's not a very good pocket passer, I would much prefer a QB that runs for 4 yds on a given play, than one that throws an INT.
I think the real question is why did he get benched? Why did the Titans basically pack his bags for him? I notice there is a new coaching staff whose first move was to draft a Qb with their 1st rounder, coincidence? Nope, they wanted to make it clear the Young era was over. Why would intelligent NFL Coaches/Front Office Personnel/Owners with a lot more information and film on Young than any of us, not to mention knowing him personally want nothing to do with him? I don't know about the suicide stuff but there was definitely something more than the guy having a bad day going on. The off the field stuff is nothing to gloss over, there has to be reasons why the Titans gave up on him so completely. I don't think we bring him in because of this stuff, I can't see this coaching staff and front office wanting someone who is a benching away from destroying himself for the team.
The staff was divided on his selection when they first drafted him, and he obviously was aware of it as the public was hearing all about the Fisher, Chow and front office being in a tiff about the Titans picking Young. Things started off poorly as a Titan for him from the very start.
I don't understand even the need to go into labels and "style" etc. Is Vince Young a capable passer or not? That's the question. This whole "certain kind of quarterback never has won anything and never will" thing is a total red herring. Inconsequential argument. It's like oh, so and so was not a running quarterback even though he scrambled for yardage more often than so and so, who was a running quarterback, blah blah blah, I don't get the need for it. In 2010 Vince Young passed pretty well, but my concern is this was illusory. The Titans have Chris Johnson scaring the bajesus out of defenses, because if you slip up even a little in your gap control against him, he's off to the races and everyone knows it. Meanwhile Kenny Britt is proving to be one of the hottest young receivers in the game (if he can stop being another Vince Young off the field), and the Titans signed another big play maker Nate Washington who was a huge vertical threat in Pittsburgh and proved to be one in Tennessee as well. Seems to me that the offense was built to create big plays, and that's what Vince did with big TDs of 71, 56, 24 and 23 yards against the Chargers, Raiders, Cowboys and Jaguars, respectively. But as I showed, one thing Vince has been very bad at doing is punching the ball in the end zone from the tight red area, where the spaces are tighter, minimizing the consequences of defenders being aggressive toward Chris Johnson. Vince Young in his career when asked to pass the ball from the tight red area, throws touchdowns at about HALF the rate that is average for an NFL quarterback. As for the comparison with Kerry Collins in the same offense, due to Vince's bad character he ended up playing in 4 games this year where Kerry also played. That's probably the most apples to apples you can get, comparing the production of players playing in the exact same games. Vince was 29 of 54 for 472 yards, 4 TDs and 3 INTs in those 4 games. Kerry was 45 of 76 for 362 yards, 2 TDs and 1 INT in ths same games. That's an 85 versus a 75 rating, not terribly obscene difference, but consider the issue of sacks and fumbles. Vince ran 7 times for 29 yards in those games, was sacked 4 times for -37 yards, and he lost 3 fumbles. He didn't run for any more touchdowns. Kerry Collins ran 3 times for -2 yards, was sacked 2 times for -5 yards, and lost 1 fumble. Adjust their QB ratings for these, and you get a 57 Rating for Vince Young versus a 65 Rating for Kerry Collins. Kerry Collins actually performed better than Vince Young in the four games where they both played.
The Minnesota Vikings' front office made it clear that they wanted Ryan Sims real badly and only had to take Bryant McKinnie because of a snafu where they didn't get the card in on time. They made that clear to him in contract negotiations. I didn't see Mount McKinnie act like a pouty crybaby about it for years and years, nor have I seen the Vikings give up on Mount McKinnie at any point in his Vikings career thus far. Bottom line, you do your job, and you do it well, then it doesn't matter who was all the way behind the pick and who wasn't. Vince Young didn't do his job well.
For some reason, Fisher acted very unprofessionally towards Vince Young, why that is boils down to only Fish and Young knowing the reasons but he clearly did not "go for" Vince Young's time with the Titans. Does that make Young a diamond in the rough? Do think if Young were in early and leaving late and putting in the work to get better there probably would not have been the rift between he and Fisher that was evident to any outside observer.
Which was some excellent work CK, I've thought about it a bit and suspect it boiled down to both Young's shortcomings as a passer and Chris Johnson's skillset as a running back, which is why they used to use LenDale White down on the goal line and had planned on using L Blount in that role last yr. Now to be fair to Young he did draw the tougher defenses over Collins, the Steelers can make any Qb look anemic. CJ is not punching the ball in from 5 yds out in a power I formation, Young has a shorter field and tighter windows to throw the ball and with less field to defend Young's skills as a runner are not as useful.
Exactly, what does it matter what style the Qb has or what skillset when we need at least a Qb who can beat out Henne and who has some sort of future in the NFL?
That doesn't seem very believable for a reason Vince Young's passing percentage on those downs would be the poorest in the league right there with Joe Flacco. First off Chris Johnson has converted 27% of his goal-to-go carries into touchdowns in his career. That's literally the exact same percentage in Ricky Williams' and Willis McGahee's career. It's a good percentage. Off the top of my head, I want to say that outside of Brandon Jacobs and Adrian Peterson, who have insane percentages in those situations, the best you get over a long period of time is around 30 to 32, and 27 percent is actually legitimately among the most effective tight red area backs in the league. So I can hardly see Chris Johnson's being one of the most efficient tight red zone scorers in the league being a factor in why Vince Young was a terrible tight red zone passer. You're not getting my point. They BOTH played in the Steelers, and they BOTH played in the Jaguars game, they BOTH played in the Chargers game and they BOTH played in the Dolphins game. I tallied the stats only from THOSE FOUR GAMES. Yeah, the Steelers can make any QB look anemic. Problem is that where Vince Young had his number called 14 times and was responsible for 60 yards, 0 TDs, and 3 turnovers, Kerry Collins had his number called 29 times, accounting for 143 yards, 1 TD and 2 turnovers...against the same defense, on the same day. Same defense. Same day. Just repeating that in case it wasn't clear enough. See again Chris Johnson's overall effectiveness at scoring touchdowns in Goal-to-Go situations. A figure of 27% is actually quite good. Notice it's the same as Ricky Williams and Willis McGahee, both of whom are so known for their ability near the end zone that they end up getting carries around that area as specialists. There are only a few Adrian Peterson, Brandon Jacobs, Emmitt Smith types out there that have such a nose for the end zone that they're notably more efficient over time in that tight red area. Chris Johnson is actually among the best tight red zone backs in the NFL.
Conversion percentage means nothing at all CK, it is attempts + conversion percentage that matters. The Titans Qb's gave up 5 TO's to the Stealers to begin with, point to Collins as if he had a great game and 150 yds and 2 TO's to 1 TD is not anything to write home about, and, something you should realize is the backup Qb can play better then the starter simply because the Defense did not design packages to stop them, they are concerned with the Starter. Which is why, imho, the same team and wildly different result in the W/L column is as probative as performance vs the same defense in the same game, See my response above. Then why oh why, did Fisher utilize a goaline specialist when he had supra efficient CJ to score the TD's? When he did not have one this yr, as when he tried to sneak Blount onto the practice squad, he was poached by the Bucs, so Ken Britt's production jumped upwards not sure if that comes from Red Zone TD's or long plays, but he did jump to 9 TD's this yr.
The above sentence doesn't make sense. I can put words together into a sentence as well, but camel forgive although survive hither not sample much essence denial. It was a lot better than what Vince Young gave them. That CAN be true, I'd love to see your long term study and proof for it. Shouldn't that be obvious? The last time the Titans made use of a goal line back was Chris Johnson's rookie year. He was a 191 pound unproven rookie and they still had 240+ pounder LenDale White (whom they'd taken in the 2nd round and was in his 3rd season with the team). They wanted both to be involved, and so they figured out roles that made sense. Chris Johnson has been the primary touchdown scorer in 2009 and 2010. First, Chris Johnson didn't have a goal line touchdown hawker in 2009 either. Second, aren't you contradicting yourself? How is LeGarrette Blount supposed to hawk goal line carries from Chris Johnson from the practice squad? Third, what does Kenny Britt have to do with anything? Bottom line, you've developed two theories as to why Vince Young is the poorest goal line passer in the league. One is "his shortcomings as a passer". The second is Chris Johnson's lack of goal line prowess. The first theory is not only valid, but likely. The second theory is totally and completely invalid.
Jabberwocky, as if "gosh, if he scored 3 Td's on 5 goal line attempts his conversion percentage is 80%!" is a foreign concept, percentage means nothing, it is the number of attempts + the number of successful conversions. Could be Stealers were just kicking the Titans *** in the game. Eh. What? My goodness, one would think they would know whether or not CJ could punch the ball into the EZ or not, apparently it was "not". From what distance? CJ tends to break long runs for TD's. Because the Titans thought Javon Ringer would fill the White role, if he couldn't Blount was to be Plan B, but he was poached to Fisher's chagrin at the time, as for what does Britt have to do with it, if they felt they could not power the ball into the EZ then they could have used Britt as the EZ scorer. Would have to see the numbers of course but you are probably correct, Young is simply not a good passer in goal to go situations, CJ did lead the Titans in TD.
Javone Ringer did not function as the team's goal line back. He got only 4 carries in Goal-to-Go this year. Chris Johnson got six times as much work in Goal-to-Go, in 2010. In his career, Chris Johnson has 52 rushing attempts in Goal-to-Go situations, with 14 TDs. I think that's plenty to show that the guy is good wherever he's rushing the ball from.
Vince Young converted on those situations 17% of the time, Johnson 27%, that seems like the Titans offense did not have much punch down in the goal line area. And thanks for the stats.
But between the two, Johnson's holding up his end of the bargain with a good percentage...it's Young who is operating at less than half of what would be considered "good" for a quarterback in that measure.
