I think if he's half as motivated as he comes across he'll get it done.

 

Show me.

 

When I watch Wake I see a guy who is an elite athlete among elite athletes. And since he got to the CFL, his motivation and drive has been above reproach. I don't see why it's even a question whether he'll be a premier LB. I have no doubt that barring injury, he'll be a premier pass rusher this year. I see his coverage and run support as already being at least as good as Porter's was last year (actually better), so I have no doubt he will substantially increase his snaps. And when he's on the field good things happen for us.

 

I wouldn't say he was as good as Porter in coverage and run support. Wake certainly has the physical ability to be, but to me it appears at times he looked lost in terms of diagnosing blocking schemes. I'm not sure if that will be an ongoing issue, or if it will get better with experience (which is certainly plausible). But if I'm an opposing OC, I'm looking to attack Wake on 1st and 2nd down. Even on 3rd downs, I'll run a couple of draws toward him, just to slow him down.

 

Virtually , totally agree with you on this.

Athletically elite? Check.

Drive? Check.

Production when he played? Check.

Matching Joey P for run support and coverage? Probably/Hopefully ( though that isn't much )

He has elite skills that seperate him from other elite players , as you insightfully noted. This year , with Mike Nolan , I see that he is utilized better , put in a better situation to succeed , and also will improve in his areas where he was lacking last season.

Big time production from Wake would be a huge step to a stronger D this season. It looks like we both agree this will happen.

 

He wants to be a complete Lb?

So do I

 

According to PFF's ratings they were pretty close.

Player/ Run Def./ Pass cov.

Porter/ -0.3/ 1.2
Wake/ -0.5/ 1.5

Of course, Wake had limited snaps in those two categories, but in the snaps he did play, It's clear that Wake and Porter were comparable.

 

I would think thats due to limited snaps. I think if they were comparable in those areas, Wake would have gotten a lot more snaps on 1st and 2nd down.

ETA:
Player/ Run plays/ pass plays
Porter 333 / 68
Wake 30 / 3

If a player dropping into coverage only 3 times isn't an indictment of his pass coverage, I'm not sure what is.

 

Remember that Porter was not the easiest person to deal with. It has been well publicized that there were times when Porter refused to come out and Sparano didn't force it. So, no I don't agree that Wake would have got more snaps on 1st and 2nd regardless.

 

Well he might have if Porter wasn't out there refusing to come out of the game...

 

It would have been much easier to bench or deactivate Porter outright than deal with the headaches with him in-game. But they couldn't do that, because they didn't trust Wake on 1st and 2nd down. The one game where Porter was suspended, Wake saw the same number of snaps he saw in every other game.

 

It could also just be a recognition that Wake was twice as effective as a pass rusher as the best pass rushers in the league and that you want him doing that as much as possible.

 

Can't refuse to come out of the game if you aren't a starter (which Porter was). The entire situation could have been easily resolved by benching Porter, but that didn't happen.

And the game against Carolina, where Porter was inactive, Wake only saw how many snaps?

 

While I don't agree with the thought that Wake will no doubt be a elite linebacker, he was pretty effective against Carolina. He gave Jeff Otah trouble.

Wake has issues IMO. No secondary/counter move, doesn't lock out elbows, and his hand use is inconsistent IMO. I can see why people question if he'll ever develop into an elite linebacker or a linebacker at all. He may forever be a pass rusher in a three point stance. IMO, he's most explosive that way.

 

Is that solely based on PFF's numbers? Because I would say the TB game skews that a little.

He wasn't as consistent rushing the passer as the best pass rushers in the league. He had one game with multiple sacks, which was against Buffalo in week 4. Not to mention he faded away the last few games. Thats not a knock against Wake, because he exceeded my expectations last season. But I don't necessarily think its a given that he will become a complete OLB.

 

My bad, Porter was inactive against TB, where Wake did see 30 snaps. But he still only was credited with dropping into coverage once all game.

 

I think the counter-move was most troubling for me. The last few games you could tell lineman knew how to play him.

 

IMO in this defense, Wake's coverage skills won't be an issue. I think Dumervil had like 7 snaps in coverage last year and I saw about four of them. All of them were basically spot dropping. I do want to say that I don't think Wake's a complete athlete. By complete, I mean I don't think he's a guy who will be able to twist/turn and run quickly. IMO he's a straight line athlete. However, that may be enough in this defense, assuming he's the weak side pass rusher.

Just my two cents.

 

Agreed. If you just go back and look at Chris's (CK) video on Wake at You Tube, you can see guys like Willie Colon and David Stewart giving him trouble. In my opinion, those guys were quick in their kick slide and once they were able to slide with Wake, it was all over. In that video, if you look at all of Wake's successful rushes (by successful, I mean beating blocker and/or applying pressure), most of them were either because of the RT being unable to get out of his kickslide quick enough or they were too tall out of their stance. It happened to the Bills pass blockers in the video, it happened to Eben Britton, it happened to Jeff Otah (actually, Otah had another issue in which he failed to get his hands off his hips quick enough IMO). The guys who were successful, the aforementioned Colon and Stewart, they played with leverage, had a good base and were light footed. There's one play on the video toward the end, where the Saints RT completely shuts down Wake's speed rush and Wake has the opening for an inside spin but fails to utilize it.

 

No doubt that someone like Wake will be used effectively by our coaches. How often will they be able to get him in favorable situations though?

I think the question is, when comparing him to Dumervil, is how much of a liability was Dumervil? He was able to get to the QB, but he wasn't good at much else. We all know how the Broncos defense did a 180, how much of that had to do with offenses figuring out what they were doing with Dumervil, and how to take advantage of his limitations?

 

That's not true.

Week/tot. snaps/ run snaps/ cov. snaps

10/ 33/ 9/ 1

1/ 0/ 0/ 0
2/ 0/ 0/ 0
3/ 9/ 1/ 0
4/ 25/ 7/ 0
5/ 8/ 0/ 0
6/ bye
7/ 2/ 0/ 0
8/ 1/ 0/ 0
9/ 12/ 1/ 0
11/ 10/ 1/ 0
12/ 9/ 1/ 1
13/ 9/ 3/ 0
14/ 15/ 2/ 0
15/ 12/ 1/ 0
16/ 9/ 3/ 1
17/ 13/ 1/ 0

Wake had more total snaps and more rush snaps in week 10 when Porter was suspended than he did any other week. And other than week 4 which was a blow out and the starters sat early, it wasn't even close.

 

Porter was inactive for the Tampa game, against Carolina Porter had 2 sacks.

I'm a Wake fan but am aware of his weaknesses:

-Much more effective from a 4 pt stance than two point

-More effective rushing the passer from the right side than the left side.

-Doesn't recognize plays quickly, draws and shovel passes to his side of the field easily work as his concern is heading up field.

Nolan and Sheridan will figure Wake out and coach him up, but let's not put on aqua colored glasses about him.

 

Yeah, he's no Pat White :shifty:

 

It would have been as big of an issue in the locker room either way. So that wouldn't have solved much, if anything.

And Porter missed the Tampa game, not the Carolina game. As I showed above, Wake's snaps were more than triple what he averaged in the other 15 games.

 

Yeah, I posted that above, that Porter missed the Tampa game. http://forums.thephins.com/showpost.php?p=1172085&postcount=17

They still did their best to make sure Wake hardly dropped into coverage. Right now, we can't really say he's anything but a pass-rusher. Even in the Tampa game, he dropped into coverage once and was credited with 1 tackle.

 

That's what interests me as well. A question I posed in my defensive study of Nolan in Denver thread was, how often are we going to see Wake? If you look at Nolan's defense last year, you would see a lot of tight bunch formations against him. Also a lot of 2x1 and trips sets. What I saw from Nolan was that he would take out a pass rusher, sometimes Dumervil, and insert a defensive back. If you go back and watch Denver against Pittsburgh, you'll see this a lot. Nolan basically went with a 3-3-5 against Pittsburgh and got burned. My question was, if Nolan takes out a successful pass rusher like Dumervil, what does that mean for Cameron Wake? What could it mean is probably a better way to ask that but you get my point.

I think that's an interesting question. I personally don't know the answer but would be interested in finding it out. Part of the answer may be what I was stating above.

Again my two cents.

 

I'm with you here.

 

Yeah, I think the answer is in what you stated above. Ideally you want your best passrusher on the field for all 3 downs. Now if Nolan has to take out Dumervil in certain situations, the offense can now dictate when Denver's best passrusher is on the field.

 

Agreed. However, what I failed, mistake on my part, to include was that Dumervil was part of the 3 man line at times, while other times being taken out. Now a way you can look at it is, Wake could be put in position to do what he does best in a stance that fits him best as well. Picture a line of Jared Odrick, Randy Starks and Cameron Wake. I think that could do some damage, despite having (sometimes) eight guys dropping. Ultimately, I think Wake will have opportunities at both linebacker and end. How successful he is in them is what will be interesting.

 

Well, I think with Nolan, if he really feels Wake, we could see 4-1-6 coverage packages Alen with Wake/Starks/Langford/Odrick/Anderson/Merling as the Dline with Edds or Dansby as the nickel ILB with YBell playing a sort of rover position either Lb/S/or blitzer.

Imho we have the personnel to pull that off successfully and it can be done without asking too much of a player like Crowder trying to cover Dallas Clark last season.

 

like my new Avvy?

 

I do :yes:

 

Posted before me by a minute..:D

Same concept, what would be really devious is using Dansby as a DE, then dropping him back into coverage ala AJ Duhe did under Arnsparger, that would be using Dansby to the fullest potential DE/ILB/OLB/Nickel ILB.

 

The one bullet point that I would disagree with is that Cameron Wake is more deadly from a four-point stance versus two-point stance. Wake can pass rush from the two-point stance. He can be very deadly from that stance.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9jpcv9wfsc"]YouTube- Universal Draft Presents Miami Dolphins DE/LB Cameron Wake '09[/ame]

The very first play in that video, he's on his usual left side, and he's in an up position just like Jason Taylor on the other side. Wake beats Kirk Chambers like he owes him money. He does everything. His burst up the field is still deadly, he gets narrow at the bottom of his rush, and he finishes off the sack even though Edwards operated with a nice internal clock and started scrambling as soon as his checked off his last read.

Look again at 0:25 into the video. This is only the third linebacker play. Again, this is a deadly rush. He takes Chambers deep and when Kirk overextends to get back there, Cameron forklifts the guy off the ground with an inside counter. Wasn't a sack but it was damn close.

Very next play, again he's rushing from an up position. He's real low, but he has no hands on the ground. He's still flexible and reactive. Again he's Kirk Chambers' worst nightmare. Edwards has to scramble out of the pocket, Chambers gets away with basically a takedown on Wake.

Check out 1:11. This is against a much better pass protector, Damien Woody of the Jets. But again he takes him deep, waits for him to over-commit, uses the inside counter and he's free to Mark Sanchez on 3rd & 15. Should have been a sack but in this case Sanchez decides that it's OK to dump the ball off 5 yards rather than lose yardage on the sack.

Go to 1:51 if you want a real treat. Just look at this sack he has on Trent Edwards. It's like Wake is shot right out of a freakin barrel.

Very next play, there he is with another sack. Impressive how when you get to the close-up you see that Wake managed to bring the guy down with just that one out-stretched hand, and Jason Taylor actually never got the chance to lay a finger on the QB.

You know what's great about this video? I included literally every instance where he started a play lined up with his hands off the ground. Every single one. I had to leave some plays out of this video otherwise it would have 167 plays in it, but I didn't leave any of the following plays out:

1. Linebacker
2. Right side
3. Run defense

I count 15 linebacker pass rushes in that video. He had 3 sacks in the video. I counted another 4 times he beat his man in time to pressure the QB directly. One of those 15 plays was a little bubble screen where pretty much no backside pass rusher could have pressured the QB. Another of the 15 plays he stunted inside to Jahri Evans, widely regarded as possibly the best Guard in the game today, and knocked him straight onto his butt on a play that ended up a tipped interception.

Cameron Wake's overall efficiency is pretty staggering. PFF says 33 plays on QB in only 134 rushes. But that means that while he was able to make a play on QB once every 4.6 rushes from a down position, he was making plays on the QB once every 2.1 rushes from an up position.

I think that's a common misperception that Cameron Wake was much more deadly as a pass rusher from a down position than an up position. It was a misperception that I specifically intended to clear up with that video I made. In the end, he didn't have that many pass rushes from an up position to where we could conclude anything with certainty, but at the very least we can say that there is *NO* evidence, none whatsoever, that he is in fact more deadly as a pass rusher with his hand on the ground.

 

I posted a aquavision video last season that featured LB coach Jim Reid and he was discussing Cam Wake's get off on the ball and how his front foot went past were his hands had been placed on the ground...excellent take off and a rare one.

However Reid mentioned that they told Wake to get into whichever stance he was most comfortable in, 4 pt or standing up and Wake himself chose the 4pt stance as his most comfortable one.

 

And as I told you back then, you read too much into what Jim Reid said. And you've misquoted him.

 

The eye in the sky doesn't lie. I don't care what flimsy evidence you have to the contrary, the video clearly suggests that Wake was just as effective with his hands off the ground if not more so, and at the very least it offers zero video documented evidence that Cam is actually more effective a pass rusher with his hands on the ground.

 

That is the gist of what he said direct quotation..or not, Cam was more comfortable coming out of a 4pt stance.