Washington Redskins:When 4-3 to 3-4 conversions run off the rails
22 replies
padre31luxury_boxOPWe gave up too many big plays in the passing game and it's hard to come out of the hole when you get in that. I think we're doing a good job in the running game (Washington ranks 11th in the league) but there are a lot of areas we'd like to improve on. We need to get more opportunity to get turnovers, too. There are a lot of issues we're dealing with and we've got to correct them as we go here."
Although Haslett, a onetime Pittsburgh Steelers defensive coordinator, is well versed in the principles of the Steelers' effective 3-4, on which the Redskins' new scheme is based in large part, he's not tied to doing things that way. In fact, the New Orleans Saints ran a 4-3 when Haslett was their head coach because that's what their personnel was best equipped to do at the time.
During his year out of coaching, Shanahan studied the league in a way he could not while he was consumed with coaching and directing the Denver Broncos' football operation. Shanahan decided that when he returned to lead the Redskins, he would install a 3-4 because of the success of team's such as Pittsburgh and the Baltimore Ravens had in producing turnovers as part of a Super Bowl-championship formula.
Since the 2000 season, the Redskins have had top-10 defenses eight times. The team ranked lower than 10th only in 2003 and 2006 (25th and 31st, respectively). But during that span, the Redskins never were higher than 10th in turnover differential. Through the first three games, the Redskins' defense has three takeaways (two interceptions and one fumble recovery). The Steelers lead the league in turnovers (five interceptions, four fumble recoveries).
In 09 the Redskins Defense was top 10, with Brian Orakpo having double digit sacks, now they are last in the league.
The impulse to ditch what works well with the player personnel they already have is one of the more bizarre things about how the NFL operates.
Desidesforum_veteranWhat Shanahan missed is that other teams have converted to the 3-4 in recent years, meaning the talent base for the scheme is less deep than it once was. I’m sure Shanny’s arrogance led him to believe he could make it work somehow, but to no avail.
And people think Denver let Shanahan go in order to hire an egomaniac. Quite the contrary. In three years, Shanahan will be out of a job, and Snyder will be back to square one. Again. Maybe he’ll hire Leslie Frazier, or give Mike Singletary his second shot at a head coaching gig (because the guy isn’t going to last much longer in San Fran.)
"Not you." — Tywin Lannister
padre31luxury_boxDismantling a top 10 Defense to chase a fad is simply stupid.
When Sparano came to Miami it made sense as the Defense the year before was terrible, for Shanny to do the same is simply "'cause I want too!" run amok.
Not uncommon in the NFL with new Head Coaches, and I like Haslett, but during a bye week if I were Shanny I'd call Haslett in for a Assistant's prayer meeting and inquire about switching to a 3-4/4-3 hybrid.
Desidesforum_veteran"padre31 wrote:
Dismantling a top 10 Defense to chase a fad is simply stupid.
To be fair, the 3-4 isn’t exactly a fad.
The problem is that Shanahan switched just because he saw 3-4 teams winning the Super Bowl. That’s fine, but you need to have the personnel in place before you can switch. Green Bay is the exception, not the rule.
"Not you." — Tywin Lannister
padre31luxury_box"Desides wrote:
To be fair, the 3-4 isn’t exactly a fad.
The problem is that Shanahan switched just because he saw 3-4 teams winning the Super Bowl. That’s fine, but you need to have the personnel in place before you can switch. Green Bay is the exception, not the rule.
I would dearly love to test a segment of your brain as compared to the core of a White Dwarf Des..I think the sectional density will be a close competition.
:D
Now, think about what you just typed
"The 3-4 is not a fad"
"Shanahan switched..saw other teams running it"
Desidesforum_veteran"padre31 wrote:
I would dearly love to test a segment of your brain as compared to the core of a White Dwarf Des..I think the sectional density will be a close competition.
:D
Now, think about what you just typed
"The 3-4 is not a fad"
"Shanahan switched..saw other teams running it"
The teams that Shanahan saw running the 3-4 are institutional 3-4 teams. The Steelers, the Ravens, the Patriots. They didn’t convert overnight, they’ve been running that defense for years, decades in some cases.
The fad isn’t running the 3-4, but rather the act of converting to the 3-4.
"Not you." — Tywin Lannister
padre31luxury_box"Desides wrote:
The teams that Shanahan saw running the 3-4 are institutional 3-4 teams. The Steelers, the Ravens, the Patriots. They didn’t convert overnight, they’ve been running that defense for years, decades in some cases.
The fad isn’t running the 3-4, but rather the act of converting to the 3-4.
Spot on.
Shanny moved into DC, picked up the notion that the 3-4 was the way to go, then demolished a Top 10 Defense to implement it.
To break something that works to replace it with something that takes time to work is foolishness.
Desidesforum_veteran"padre31 wrote:
Spot on.
Shanny moved into DC, picked up the notion that the 3-4 was the way to go, then demolished a Top 10 Defense to implement it.
To break something that works to replace it with something that takes time to work is foolishness.
We’re not in disagreement. :lol:
All I’m saying is that there’s a difference between converting to the 3-4 (fad) and running the 3-4 (not a fad; that defense has been around for decades.) Shanahan tossed out what works because he has the arrogance to assume that he can make the new scheme work, or that the new scheme will automagically work just because.
That’s why I brought up Green Bay: their mostly successful transition from the 4-3 to the 3-4 is the exception, not the rule. Even then, they had the sense to draft heavily along the defensive front seven to accommodate the transition, picking guys like BJ Raji and Clay Matthews, and getting rid of guys like Aaron Kampman.
Shanahan just switched for the hell of it, and became enthralled with playing mind games with Haynesworth. Shanahan is everything you think Josh McDaniels is times ten.
"Not you." — Tywin Lannister
padre31luxury_box"Desides wrote:
We’re not in disagreement. :lol:
All I’m saying is that there’s a difference between converting to the 3-4 (fad) and running the 3-4 (not a fad; that defense has been around for decades.) Shanahan tossed out what works because he has the arrogance to assume that he can make the new scheme work, or that the new scheme will automagically work just because.
That’s why I brought up Green Bay: their mostly successful transition from the 4-3 to the 3-4 is the exception, not the rule. Even then, they had the sense to draft heavily along the defensive front seven to accommodate the transition, picking guys like BJ Raji and Clay Matthews, and getting rid of guys like Aaron Kampman.
Shanahan just switched for the hell of it, and became enthralled with playing mind games with Haynesworth. Shanahan is everything you think Josh McDaniels is times ten.
Best settled:
Implementing the 3-4 in DC was Shanny following a fad.
texanphinaticforum_veteran"padre31 wrote:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/3-4-defense/the-3-4-is-experiencing-some-g.html?wprss=redskinsinsider
The impulse to ditch what works well with the player personnel they already have is one of the more bizarre things about how the NFL operates.
Pure egotism, a coach thinking that their scheme is the reason the team will succeed, rather than the players running it.
Shannahan has always been overrated imo, and the Broncos post Elway/Davis are exhibit A. He will ride Elway's coattails to the HoF probably.
finfansince72subscriber...its 3 games into his tenure in DC, not sure why anyone is picking out funeral plots already. The important thing is that he has control of the team and Dan Snyder isn't making the personnel moves anymore. It might be a situation of taking a step back to go 2 steps forward, Shanahan won't get fired after a bad year. He'll get a few drafts to build a decent team. He has a good coaching staff in place and has taken the team over from the players....something that was much needed in DC.
Desidesforum_veteran"finfansince72 wrote:
...its 3 games into his tenure in DC, not sure why anyone is picking out funeral plots already. The important thing is that he has control of the team and Dan Snyder isn't making the personnel moves anymore.
Shanahan is not exactly the best talent scout in the NFL. In fact, his inability to get a cohesive defensive line together in Denver helped seal his fate.
Maybe he thought by switching to the 3-4 he’d have one less defensive line position to screw up. :shifty:
"Not you." — Tywin Lannister
finfansince72subscriber"Desides wrote:
Shanahan is not exactly the best talent scout in the NFL. In fact, his inability to get a cohesive defensive line together in Denver helped seal his fate.
Maybe he thought by switching to the 3-4 he’d have one less defensive line position to screw up. :shifty:
He's a lot better of a talent scout than Dan Snyder thats the important thing. He's proven he can build an Oline and run the ball which should help any defense he builds. Its still way too early to start burying Shanahan in Washington, he's won in this league it wasn't a fluke that he won in Denver, no one else won a title with Elway so give the guy an ounce of credit.
Desidesforum_veteran"finfansince72 wrote:
He's a lot better of a talent scout than Dan Snyder thats the important thing. He's proven he can build an Oline and run the ball which should help any defense he builds. Its still way too early to start burying Shanahan in Washington, he's won in this league it wasn't a fluke that he won in Denver, no one else won a title with Elway so give the guy an ounce of credit.
He’s a great coach. I’m not commenting on his ability to coach. I’m saying the guy had GM power in Denver and he laid the groundwork for his own firing because he could not stock his team with the players it needed.
"Not you." — Tywin Lannister
padre31luxury_box"finfansince72 wrote:
...its 3 games into his tenure in DC, not sure why anyone is picking out funeral plots already. The important thing is that he has control of the team and Dan Snyder isn't making the personnel moves anymore. It might be a situation of taking a step back to go 2 steps forward, Shanahan won't get fired after a bad year. He'll get a few drafts to build a decent team. He has a good coaching staff in place and has taken the team over from the players....something that was much needed in DC.
And I'm not sure why you are overreacting, no one said "Shanahan will be fired", nothing of the sort was said, the topic is the Redskins switched from a successful 4-3 to a 3-4 that is doing poorly, Shanny did so based on his study of the successful teams in the AFC.
IE, Shanny tried to fit a top 10 defense into a bottom 10% hole simply because it was what he wanted, not what the Roster dictated.
What exactly is wrong? Assuming the score holds true, they've held Dallas and Philly, two very good offensive teams, to 13 combined points. You can't start calling the conversion a failure after 3 games.
padre31luxury_box"Mainge wrote:
What exactly is wrong? Assuming the score holds true, they've held Dallas and Philly, two very good offensive teams, to 13 combined points. You can't start calling the conversion a failure after 3 games.
As the OP states, ranked 31st overall.
Kind of a small sample size, don't you think? What are they in PPG?
Desidesforum_veteran"Mainge wrote:
Kind of a small sample size, don't you think? What are they in PPG?
23rd as of week 3.
Just because Kevin Kolb isn’t what Andy Reid thought he was doesn’t mean Mike Shanahan is a defensive genius.
"Not you." — Tywin Lannister
padre31luxury_box"Desides wrote:
23rd as of week 3.
Just because Kevin Kolb isn’t what Andy Reid thought he was doesn’t mean Mike Shanahan is a defensive genius.
Well, 1:27 to go, if the D folds here it will sort of prove the point.
"Desides wrote:
23rd as of week 3.
Just because Kevin Kolb isn’t what Andy Reid thought he was doesn’t mean Mike Shanahan is a defensive genius.
That is exactly what I said!
Desidesforum_veteran"Mainge wrote:
That is exactly what I said!
You said that it’s improper to call the 3-4 conversion a failure after 3 games, and cited game scores to back that up, then asked what rank the Redskins have in scoring defense.
I replied saying they’re 23rd in scoring defense. That is, they’re one of the easiest teams in the NFL to score on.
Failing to see where we’re making the same point.
"Not you." — Tywin Lannister
Except in half of their games?
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