We need Sam ..we need Sam..we need Sam !!!!

If homosexuality is a choice, when was it that you were attracted to men and women and then you chose to be straight?

 

Na, there's plenty of evil people who don't need a religion to hate people who are different.

 

I know a few and most of them just kind of feel like God's cool w them being gay more or less.

Big separation between God and the church for most people around my age who are Christian or catholic or whatever.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong but for all we know it is still a choice or preference. Maybe subconsciously.

Do you remember when you were a child and you decided ____ was your favorite color? I don't, but I know I made that choice.

 

So you remember when you were sexually attracted to boys and girls?

 

No. How does that change what I just said?

 

I'm not sure there's such a thing as subconscious choice.

 

Subconscious preference then maybe? If you agree that people have a subconscious then that pretty much opens the door for anything of that nature.

I'd say it's certainly one of the areas and workings of the brain that we still don't fully understand yet.

 

"Subconscious preference" is no different than saying "no choice".

 

Not really. No choice is like saying you're on a straight line from day 1. Subconscious preference leaves you open to influence on an unmarked course.

 

Meaning you can look at a kid and tell they are or are going to be gay?

Well personally I've said that about kids and been wrong.

 

But you have no choice to change it or stop it.

Again the basics of what you're arguing is that every person could either be gay or straight depending on their environment at an early age. If that's true, then you still have no choice.

 

Not at all.

Do I think what you're exposed to might have a part in it? Sure. Do I think any two people react the same to a situation or interpret things the exact same way? Absolutely not.

Imo, there's no all or nothing and it's likely more a combination of a ton of diff factors.

 

If that is true, it is likely the environment factors happen at an age to early for you to have a choice about and the internal factors were already there meaning you didn't have a choice about them either.

Are there a handful of gay and lesbian people who chose to be gay? Sure. But something had to be there before hand. Attraction has to be there.

 

Can't make that assumption at all either.

Attraction is just perception. Perception changes.

 

I don't know that i buy that. I've never been attracted to men, no matter what's going on in my life. I never made a choice.

I think you're born with the ability to be attracted to members of the same sex or not. Other factors can affect you from there, but the ability to be attracted is innate.

 

Instead of all this 'it's a sin' 'not a sin' stuff, instead of debating the origins, surely the only relevant factor is 'what business of it is yours?'. If it's not negatively affecting your life (which it won't be) then who gives a sh*t?

 

Welcome to America, Scotty.

You're free to believe whatever you want...as long as others believe it too.

 

My point is you might not know it was a choice you made to begin with.

I agree w that.

 

This. That's not just America though. There are countries that are waaaaaay less, "tolerant" than we are.

Weak people are always scared of what's different.

 

Again, WADR, I'm not sure you can call something a choice if you didn't know you made it.

 

Again, then use the word preference or tendency if you want to call it something else.

We can agree to disagree on that. My point is more that it's a possibility, which I don't see how anyone can factually debate.

 

How? Where is the fact that says your sexuality is decided at inception? That's 100% your opinion, not a fact.

You're acting like scientists found the gay chromosome and can point to it on the helix.

 

I'm sorry i'm lost now.

You said:

I honestly don't know how to insert "preference" into that statement and understand what your stance is.

I think you mean:

But I don't see how you can "make" a choice or "preference" without knowing you did it.

 

I haven't said much about suicide or bullying, because neither of those issues are exclusive to homosexuals or anyone having impure thoughts. This problem starts at home, and in the vast majority of cases, there are clear signs of trouble. Parents, teachers and friends all share the responsibility for helping kids learn to deal with bullies AND there are some very tough laws on the books to give parents/schools clear recourse.

The fact of the matter is, for every teen suicide you can show me, there are probably dozens of people who SHOULD HAVE seen that child was in trouble and offered help EVERY SINGLE TIME. In every case, the kid didn't have to be alone, but the teacher was too busy or the parents didn't really notice anything. It's tragic, and heartbreaking, but it has nothing to do with God or homosexuality. The bigger problem is a lack of religion and solid values that would keep kids from bullying each other in the first place.

Take this forum, for example, and all the questions about religion (and all the many things made up...or those who are challenging me on the Bible, without having any idea of what God's word is). These are things I learned growing up in a Christian household and going to church every Sunday. I'm not saying that I'm special or better than anyone, but if society as a whole hadn't abandoned their religious upbringings, then this world wouldn't be such a backwards, hateful place. The kid who kills himself because he has no idea about God was failed by his family. The kids who bullied him/her fall into the same category....society failed them and it all started at home.

1 Corinthians 10:13- No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

In other words, God's children are better at resisting temptation for two reasons- God keeps us clear of stuff we can't handle and we are constantly striving to be better people in the first place. If you live a Godless life though and make no effort to build a relationship with God, then you're left on your own to survive.

Probably the first time I ever looked at a girl and thought she was pretty. I can't remember that far back, but there was a blonde in 4-K that I was sweet on. There were probably cute little boys too, but I brought that little girl a Valentine and she kissed me on the cheek. That's about as serious of an answer I can give to a ridiculous question.

 

Again, if you agree there's such a thing as your subconscious, then it's a definite possibility.

 

So you believe that back in 4-K you were attracted to boys and girls? Did you choose to be attracted to that little girl?

Why is that a ridiculous question, btw? If your contention is that homosexuality is a choice that means we all were chose to be straight because at one point we were attracted to girls and boys. I never chose to be straight, i just was.

 

You can't make a choice subconsciously because you aren't actively choosing anything. If you have subconscious preference then you do not have a choice over having that preference. Choice and subconscious preferences are opposites. I think that's why I'm confused as to what you are saying.

 

Sure you do.

Having a preference isn't something set in stone. I'd prefer to eat ice cream every day but I don't bc I don't want my teeth to fall out.

You can choose not to indulge in a preference.

 

Because I could choose to have sex with a guy today...or I could choose not to. The same thing applies to my entire life; I never chose to have anything more than friendship with a guy. You could make the same argument for anything in life...drinking, murder, rape, smoking pot, getting married, choosing a profession...these are all obvious choices unless you're a robot.

Again though, I was talking to DJ from a Biblical perspective. There are literally hundreds of references to free will...and if you want to live in sin, God's going to let you run with that temptation. These people will face eternal damnation though...that's their choice too.

 

A preference may not set in stone, a subconscious preference is.

 

I don't believe that.