One thing has been bothering me about the John Martin case this past day or so. According to PFT, Jeff Ireland was contacted after John Martin had left Oct. 28th. Zuckerman, John Martin's agent, had called to discuss with Jeff the treatment Martin was getting from Richie Incognito.
When we now look at the attorney's statements released last night.
“For the entire season-and-a-half that he was with the Dolphins, he attempted to befriend the same teammates who subjected him to the abuse with the hope that doing so would end the harassment,” Cornwell continued. “This is a textbook reaction of victims of bullying.”
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/11/08/3736970/attorney-dolphins-jonathan-martin.html#storylink=cpy
As a sports agent, Zuckerman is responsible for negotiating contracts, marketing his clients image, as well as this...
"On occasion, an athlete may become involved in a dispute with a teammate, coach or a member of team management or may encounter problems with the law. The agent may serve as an intermediary between her client and the other parties in an attempt to resolve the issue. In the case of legal difficulties, the agent will communicate with the media on behalf of her client to keep them abreast of the situation."
Read more: http://www.ehow.com/list_6323558_duties-sports-agent_.html#ixzz2k3MnJkUp
From what I know of sports agents, arent they in almost constant contact with their clients? This is from Zuckerman's own web site:
"Most importantly, Kenny is always available for his clients. He answers his phone whenever he is not in a meeting or on a plane and returns calls as soon as possible. His hands on approach provides his clients a secure peace of mind. He is present at All-Star games, the combine and pro-day. He is a relentless worker who leaves no stone unturned. In the end, Kenny’s body-of-work, experience and reputation has elevated him to the top of his game."
So...my question is this. According to Cornwell, this has been taking place for the last year and a half that Martin was with the Dolphins.
And Zuckerman calls Ireland...Oct 28th, 2013....in fact AFTER Jonathan Martin had the last straw and left the Dolphins facility.
Why in all this time that Martin was being bullied...did his agent never call? Why did he only call AFTER, Martin left the facility on Oct 28th, a year and a half AFTER this supposedly all began?
Could it be that even his agent had no idea he was being bullied all this time? Wouldnt his agent have a pulse on how his client is doing? Wouldnt you, if you were a sports agent? Did Priority Sports and Entertainment FAIL Jonathan Martin by not playing close enough attention to his issues? I have a very hard time believing that as much as Martin claims he was being bullied, that Zuckerman had NO IDEA this was taking place?
I guess I might think long and hard about the quality of representation that Priority Sports and Entertainment provides. Unless of course...there really was no bullying.
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vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
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I don't really see what your point is. The job of the agent is to represent the wishes of the client, and the timing of this really doesn't have to do anything with the agent knowing about it or not.
finyank13 likes this. -
Its likely he would contact his agent "if" he wanted to play elsewhere. If he wanted to leave the sport altogether, perhaps less likely.
Additionally, if he wanted to avoid any information of his apparent condition, or plans to walk out, relayed to Philbin or the Dolphins, prior to him doing so.
...which of course, would be assuming he wasn't mentally distraught, but rather deliberate and premeditating.
...hmmm any word on what the official clinical diagnosis was by the physician who provided or is, providing treatment? -
vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
Ok...so...
If you were an employee of the Miami Dolphins...and you were being treated badly, are you telling me you WOULDNT tell your agent about it?
My point is and I think its very salient, Martin either never told his agent he was being bullied, or his agent never did anything about it. My guess is he never told him, which I find to be extremely odd. The one person who represents your future FINANCIALLY, takes care of setting up your foundation in the league, and you never told him you were being bullied? We used to have a sports agent Brett or Brent, I wish he was still here so he could speak on this, but I have to imagine if his life was that bad, he would have gone to his agent. -
His agent is only going to do something if Martin wants him to.
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vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
Exactly...
So Martin didnt want him to do anything? In a year and a half, he was being bullied, Mom and Sister supposedly threatened, physically assaulted, and he didnt want his agent to do anything?
Thats your answer? -
vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
Whaaaa?
you lost me... -
Well if he was scheming this all along, and needed a reason to "snap", perhaps he over heard the prank, and decided that would be the reason. Who cares how rediculous it ultimately would appear to be, he just needed a trigger to snap. A trigger that would place the prank on him.
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I don't think the WHOLE thing was a scheme.
I think Martin is a soft guy. I think the demotion to RT sent him into a downward spiral. I think the prank made him snap. I think when he got away form the Dolphins, his mother an employment attorney, and his agent realized he could be put on the NFI (non football injury/illness list) which means he doesn't get paid. I think they realized it was going to be hard for him to go back to the team, so they had to turn this into a way it was football related so he could get paid. I don't blame the parents and agents for thinking like this, because that's their job. I think it was wrong of Martin to sell out Ritchie though. -
vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
Nods...
I think thats the most logical scenario in this case. Jonathan Martin really didnt want to be in the NFL. But he signed a contract, so he was going to make it work. I do believe he tried to make it work. Eventually though when you arent happy with something, its usually something small that precedes the outburst, hence the phrase..."straw that broke the camels back".
I do not think Jonathan Martin told anyone about all of this, because I don't believe he really felt he was being bullied. I think he just doesn't like the locker room atmosphere. After leaving like he did, his agent placed the call to Ireland. Of course his agent didnt want him placed on non injured reserve. But they needed a reason why Martin would not want to be there, so they asked him. Martin tells them about the Locker Room scene and how its not for him. Light goes on...well..obviously Martin has been being bullied. No wonder he wants to leave. So they start going through instances where it would create the image of him being bullied. Its not really hard to do....if you have ever worked in a predominantly male staffed environment, any of us could do the same thing.
The Dolphins balked obviously because this sets a horrible precedence. All the sudden.. a player who isn't performing to expectations...maybe sees they don't have a long term future in the NFL, all the sudden can now use locker room bullying as a way to not play, and still get paid the remainder of his contract.
The interesting thing is...what kind of long term impact does this have on the league?
What about players coming into the league? All of the sudden, if a player is on the quiet side, does this become a red flag during the draft, because teams will be afraid he cannot handle the NFL environment? Are NFL players now going to now be less likely to be accepting of Rookies..because you never know who the next Jonathan Martin is, and can ruin your career? -
vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
Heres some great information about how exactly agents are tied into their clients...
"Husted hooks it. I spring from my couch. I dial up Melvin Bratton in the Redskins' pro personnel department. He's not in his office. I try his cell. It's ringing. He answers. "Hey, Mel," I say. Recognizing my voice immediately, he stops me. "Yeah, yeah. I know," he says. "Jaret will be on a plane first thing in the morning to try out for the job."
As it turned out, Jaret got the job with the Giants that week, instead. But that's what knowing the right people is all about. That's watching a situation, knowing where teams are and when they are going to need someone. That's getting on the phone and not waiting until Monday morning. That's being a good sports agent."
What does it take to be an agent? Sometimes it's watching seven games at a time on Sunday. Sometimes it's speaking to our clients a couple of times a week, and sometimes it's just calling general managers so they'll hear my voice again. Remember, the best in the business on the team side do their part as well. They'll call you at anytime. They're always looking for a trade and always looking to pick up a different guy off the waiver wire.
wouldn't be a good agent if I didn't know a lot about everything. I know the cars that our clients want to buy like the Mercedes CL 600 or Bentley Azure. I know the Motorola Timeport (a two-way pager) and the V-Tech cell phone that they're all asking for.
Getting the right information is the key to this business, and that's why new technology is so important. I certainly don't think driving the right car or wearing an expensive watch have anything to do with being a successful sports agent. I do, however, think that having the creme-de-la-creme of cell phones, speaker phones, computers and PDA's will help you be the best sports agent.
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/confessions/agent.html
Agents are dialed into every aspect of their clients lives. Every aspect.
Another thing to consider. Jonathan Martin was the starting Left Tackle for the Miami Dolphins.
The average starting salary for an NFL Left Tackle is $4, 706, 407 dollars. The average starting salary for a starting right tackle? Half...$2, 445, 490.
Here’s a look at how NFL teams are investing in their tackles:
Avg Salary
Left Tackles $4,706,407
Right Tackles $2,445,490
On average, left tackles make nearly twice as much as their right tackle brethren. The NFL has determined that the left tackle’s job is more important and they’re being paid as such.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/04/29/examining-pressure-are-left-tackles-overvalued/
So...Jonathan Martin gets moved from LT to RT. The Dolphins are forced to trade for Bryant McKinnie to play LT. All the sudden the value of Jonathan Martins next contract is cut in half potentially. But why is Jonathan Martin playing so badly at LT, after all, he protected Andrew Luck at Stanford just fine.
Bullying of course...could you play to the best of your potential in that climate?
What did you say...."Show me the money?" -
You guys watch way too many movies.
Do you realize how dumb it would be for an agent at a major sports agency to be part of some fabricated bullying event? do you understand what the reppercussions would be if such a thing were ever revealed?
Even if the agent didn't lose his certification, it would be nigh impossible for him to function as an agent as not a single team would trust him or want to have anything to do with his clients.
Conspiracy theories are fun and entertaining, but almost none of them turn out to be true because the consequences of getting caught far outweigh the benefits of what you're doing.
Jonathan Martin does not need the money. He is an Academic All American with a degree from Stanford, and his parents could open virtually any door, in any field. I am sure he could go to law school and walk right in to a $400,000 per year job. Yet we are supposed to believe that he so desparate, that he is willing to not only smear his teamates, but smear himself for money he doesn't need? -
Are you really expressing surprise that someone being bullied may not seek out assistance?
I feel like a significant portion of this forum is totally ignorant of like basic information as far as this goes. -
vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
Fine.
Then why is that not one person, his agent, his parents, his coach, his team mates, not one person knew that Jonathan Martin was being bullied?
Thats the great thing about using bullying. Its so subjective. What by law defines bullying? Using every single thing those guys said to Jonathan Martin in the locker room, it wouldnt be a stretch at all, to say he was bullied. Thats not fabricating anything. The question is....did Jonathan Martin believe he was being bullied? -
vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
If you were his sports agent..and you saw his play suffering, would you inquire as to whats going on?
Jonathan..whats goin on man. You busted your *** all summer long. Why is your play declining?
So...in your opinion, Jonathan Martin never said a word of this.
OK. Well...he was supposedly worried about retribution from Richie Incognito right? Didnt know if he might actually "kill him"?...
I mean..he was physically assaulted after all. And...they threatened to tag team his sister. And..yet you say nothing? Not worried about your sisters safety, enough to say something? Not worried for your moms safety, enough to say anything?
That makes total sense to you?
I mean hell if someone threatened to rape my sister..and beat my mother....and I thought they really meant it...Id do something to protect them....to hell with whether Im being bullied. -
Yes, of course it does, but after you've crossed a certain line it doesn't really matter.
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vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
Ok Gusti...whats the certain line?
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I don't think its his agent leading the charge as that would be career suicide for him but OP raises a valid question as to why his agent wasn't aware of the situation and raising concerns with the Dolphins FO before this got to the boiling point.
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When you can reasonably expect what you do to hurt or upset the person, and you have the burden to figure that out.
I love making distasteful jokes and messing with my friends, but you can't do it if you aren't perceptive enough to figure out where the line is, and how to do it right. Incognito clearly isn't. -
Reading all the reports form all the coaches and teammates, illustrates that Martin had no problem with any of it. Why are you guys just ignoring that? He joined in and pranked others. He passed the VMs around and laughed with everyone about them. He was always hanging out with Cogs and laughing. They went out together on the town. They always sat near each other on plane rides. they were considered best friends.
To make this something you can understand, imagine if one of your friends just up and tried to sue for all the off color joking around you've done with him out of the blue. -
Since all the players suggested that they didn't know Martin all that well and that he was quiet, I find it hard to believe that any of them could really say whether or not they were best friends.
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vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
OK...there are what....53 players in a locker room. And clearly, 51 of them, didnt seem to see this line either. So...if over 98 percent of the individuals involved, saw no line, was there one? -
vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
He had been seen hanging out with the guy on NUMEROUS occasions. We have seen pictures of them ...in New Orleans together...sitting on a plane together. They went to heat games TOGETHER. Im pretty sure...when you see someone with the other guy hanging out personally over and over...its kind of apparent.
You guys are totally ignoring whats right infront of your face obvious. Why? -
Again, none of the other players were in Martin's head or knew exactly how they treated each other in private.
Beyond that, I don't know how your prove that someone is or really isn't your friend. -
vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
And therin lies the problem with all of this. All the players, and Incognito, and coaches can do is make a reasonable assumption. If they all say Richie and Martin hanging out together out side of practice, if they all saw Martin joking around by taking the same voice mail used against him and playing it for the locker room, if they even saw Jonathan Martin taking part of pranks on other players....
Then your telling me its not reasonable for them to all assume their was nothing wrong?
Look back at all of the evidence. Past players. Camera men from Hard Knocks...his own current team of which not one person is stating they saw Martin perceive any of the treatment he got as bullying.
What is the reasonable conclusion to this?
Look back and first thing you look at in a crime investigation. Motive. Who has the motive.
Wheres the motive in all of this? Financial motive on the part of one party. Jonathan Martin. -
As I've stated before, the only prudent thing to do at this point is to wait for the report to be released. We can go around in circles for another month on this but that does no good.
All I know is that the players could not be inside Martin's head. And the fact that they all loved Richie and voted him to the leadership council, I don't see AMrtin having many good options if he had a problem with Richie other than to try and grin and bear it.
That's what bullied people usually try to do, at least initially.
Given what we've heard from the locker room, it is just as reasonable to believe that if Martin had gone to the council or the coaches with his problem, the response would have been to fight Incognito. That's the way everybody in that facility seems to think is the proper way to deal with the matter. If you don't want to do that, or can't do that, I don't see many other choices.
Certainly he could've left and tried to reach some quiet settlement granting his release but the stories became public. And in fact, the initial story was leaked by the team, that he left after the lunchroom prank. And the media dug from there -
vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
The funny thing is....
The Phins and Incognito have not used the public media except on one occasion. Wed when they let the players speak out. You haven't seen one text or voice mail that Martin has generated yet.
But you know they are out there.
I cant wait to hear the excuses for Martin then. -
The players don't need to be inside Martin's head. That is not the baseline for deciding if someone is offended or not. It is up to the person to show they are upset. If they don't that, its no one elses fault. By EVERY account (INCLUDING MARTIN'S) he didn't have a problem with Incognito.
Do you or do you not understand that if Martin was actually hurt by anyone, he did everything he could to conceal it? -
vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
The initial story was that he was given time off to deal with personal issues. There was no word about bullying, or teasing, about anything, until Martin left.
In fact, the dude left and texted Incognito saying..."None of this is your fault" on Friday..and then Sunday...the text and voicemail was released? Why? Why was that released? What was the gain by doing that? They wanted to create a media and publicity frenzy. THEY DID. Not Incognito..not the Phins. Martin and his party. -
Not suggesting they are lying at all. Just saying that their idea of how friends treat each other seems to be different from Martin's idea.
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That doesn't matter, because it was Martin who pretended to act like friends. Why aren't you getting this? Martin literally deceived the whole locker room, by pretending to be something other than what he was, then got mad at everyone for not treating him the way he wanted. It is ridiculous.
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Again, this goes back to the point I made about the huge amounts of ignorance about bullying. I was under the impression this was basic information adults should know, but apparently not?
People whom are being messed with frequently try to befriend and get on the good side of people whom are harassing them to get it to stop. A perceived friendliness between the two people is not at all evidence of something not actually being a bad situation.schmolioot likes this. -
vt_dolfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member
Ah...so tell me.
Your SO SURE this is the case....when all of the other overwhelming evidence points in a completely opposite direction.
I mean come on Gusti. Its really not like you to believe you are right and everyone else is wrong. -
I wouldn't say the evidence is overwhelming, either way. It's just that the fact they were perceived to be friends by other guys on the team (who admittedly didn't know MArtin that well) isn't some silver bullett.
The ultimate fact here is that is this stuff was happening to the Jets, the majority of people here would be all over it and calling for Rex Ryan's lifetime ban. Because it's happening to our team, our view is skewed.
That's ok. That's what being a fan is. I wish this had never happened and that we had never heard about it.
But we did. And fan or not, I am in no way going to defend Richie Incognito or agree with anybody who defends him. He shouldn't have been on the team, period. And he certainly shouldn't have been allowed to be on the leadership council.
When you dance with the devil the devil doesn't change. He changes you.
When Richie got elevated to leadership status his way became the right way to do things, so these guys, who are mostly followers if you believe the reports, went right along.
Think about this. We booted Brandon Marshall and Ochocinco off the team for being bad charachter guys, yet we kept Richie even after his gold course incident. Why? Is it just that Philbin is more comfortable with o-linemen so he cuts them more slack? -
You're confusing the argument.
I'm not saying just because he never let on he was hurt means he was never hurt. I'm saying if Cogs, genuinely thought he was harmlessly joking around with a friend and Martin never let him know otherwise, then how is Cogs guilty of anything?
Martin did everything he could to hide what he really felt normal bullied behavior or not, and Cogs couldn't have known he was hurting Martin. The logical outcome of what you're arguing in favor of, is that you'd have to put your friends through a lie detector before you were allowed to make (previously accepted) off color jokes about them. -
No, I'm not sure. But it's really ridiculous to suggest that it is evidence to the contrary, when it's literally one of the fundamental basic things you learn if you're in a position you have to worry about this.
Did you just refer to me as Desides?
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