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What Makes a Franchise QB and Is Tannehill Really One?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by AdamC13, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Of course this has the makings of going down as one of the least popular threads ever…:lol:

    I keep hearing how Miami has their franchise QB, but exactly what does that mean? I remember in 2009 many dolphans thought we had our franchise QB in a guy by the name of Chad Henne. Three years later Henne became one of the most despised players to ever wear a Dolphin uniform.

    What separates Tannehill from Henne? Up to this point Tannehill’s career is almost a carbon copy of Chad Henne.

    In 2009 a 24 year old QB named Chad Henne led Miami to a 7-6 record in his starts (5-3 in his first 8 starts).

    In 2012 a 24 year old QB named Ryan Tannehill has led Miami to a 4-4 record (being generous including the win over the Jets).

    Statistically:

    Henne in 2009…

    274 comp, 451 att, 60.8%, 2,878 yards, 6.38 ypa, 12 TD , 14 int, 2 fumbles, 51.3 QBR, 75.2 QB rating

    16 rush, 32 yards, 2.0 ypc, 1 TD

    Miami PPG under Henne starts = 24.4

    WRs/TE = Ginn Jr., Camarillo, Bess (2[SUP]nd[/SUP] year), Hartline (rookie), Fasano (1[SUP]st[/SUP] year starting)

    Coaching staff = HC – Tony Sparano, OC- Dan Henning

    4[SUP]th[/SUP] Quarter wins = 2

    Games lost when leading or tied in 4[SUP]th[/SUP] quarter = 3

    Games leading at halftime that ended in a loss = 1

    4TH QTR, +/-7 PTS = 32 comp, 78 att, 403 yards, 41.0%, 5.17 ypa, 3 TD, 4 int, 49.3 QB rating

    LAST 2 MIN. HALF = 48 comp, 78 att, 469 yards, 61.5%, 6.01 ypa, 2 TD, 4 int, 65.6 QB rating

    OVERTIME = 2 comp, 3 att, 4 yards, 66.7%, 1.33 ypa, 0 TD, 1 int, 30.6 QB rating


    Tannehill in 2012…

    142 comp, 241 att, 58.9%, 1,762 yards, 7.31 ypa, 5 TD, 6 int, 3 fumbles, 52.8 QBR, 78.2 QB rating

    19 rush, 24 yards, 1.3 ypc, 1 TD

    Miami PPG under Tannehill = 21.2 (20.0 ppg if subtracting the 30 against the Jets that Tannehill wasn’t really a part of)

    WRs/TE = Bess (5[SUP]th[/SUP] year), Hartline (4[SUP]th[/SUP] year), Moore, Armstrong, Fasano, Clay

    Coaching staff = HC – Joe Philbin, OC – Mike Sherman

    4[SUP]th[/SUP] Quarter wins = 0

    Games lost when leading or tied in 4[SUP]th[/SUP] quarter = 3

    Games leading at halftime that ended in a loss = 3

    4TH QTR, +/-7 PTS = 22 comp, 47 att, 312 yards, 46.8%, 6.64 ypa, 1 TD, 0 int, 75.8 QB rating (80 yard completion to Hartline when Cardinals blew coverage letting him run free significantly skews
    stats…otherwise has a 61.14 QB rating)

    LAST 2 MIN. HALF = 6 comp, 19 att, 65 yards, 31.6%, 3.42 ypa, 0 TD, 1 int, 20.7 QB rating

    OVERTIME = 4 comp, 7 att, 60 yards, 57.1%, 8.57 ypa, 0 TD, 1 int, 45.8 QB rating

    Personally, I think Ryan Tannehill is more appeasing to the eye than Henne. He is more accurate with the long ball, skilled at making pre-snap reads, has a quicker release and throws a tight pass. He also wears a helmet that actually fits him. Henne was benefited by a stronger ground game, but Tannehill clearly has the better coaching staff. Miami definitely has the better defense in 2012 only giving up 18.6 ppg compared to 24.4 in 2009.

    Of course, Henne was a 4 year starter in college and had a year to sit, watch and learn in the NFL. However, Tannehill was the son of a coach, was a 5th year senior and came into basically the same offensive system ran during his 5 years (including red-shirt season) at Texas A&M. So I don't see Tannehill as inexperienced as some claim him to be. He sure came in a lot more experienced than Cam Newton.

    However, I have always considered franchise QBs to be the guys that can carry a team on their arm when needed and when the game is on the line just have that “it” factor when their game goes to another level and lead their team to victory. I am NOT saying Tannehill can’t become a franchise QB. I just don’t see him having EARNED that label yet. Usually, QBs come into the league with the “it” factor already. Very few that I can recall develop it while in the NFL.

    But since so many dolphans claim that Miami has their franchise QB what exactly does that mean to you? Please, something more intelligent than “if you can’t just see it when he is on the field, then you are blind!”
     
  2. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    The thing that is the biggest difference between Tannehill and Henne is that Tannehill is running the offense, while Henne was just running the coaches offense.
     
  3. evz

    evz Feral Druid Club Member

    yeah, when watching the actual game (not reviewing stats) you can see Tannehill is in command out there. That is a huge difference.

    However i do also agree half a season does not a franchise QB make. Only time will tell.
     
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  4. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Overall talent and innate accuracy...he's has a lot more..
     
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  5. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    What, you mean "vision" and personal opinion aren't sufficient? :headscratch: ;)

    Here's an angle. In 2009, not only was Chad Henne a 2nd-year NFL player, but if you check the game log, he had only three games out of 14 (21%) with a QB rating of 90 or higher. He had five games out of 14 (36%) with a QB rating below 70.

    Ryan Tannehill, a true rookie this year, has already had four games out of seven (57%) with a QB rating of 90 or higher, and only two games of seven with a QB rating below 70 (29%). I'm not counting the Jets game because Tannehill barely played in it.

    So, using this logic, Ryan Tannehill, even as a rookie in comparison to Chad Henne as a 2nd-year player, has given us far more frequent (57% to 21%) an opportunity to win games (QB rating of 90 or above) than Chad Henne did.

    Conversely, Chad Henne, even as a 2nd-year player in comparison to Ryan Tannehill as a rookie, made it somewhat more difficult (36% to 29%) for us to win games (QB rating below 70) than Ryan Tannehill has.

    So I think the upshot is that both the floor and the ceiling for Ryan Tannehill are higher than for Chad Henne.
     
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  6. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    Good point. Talk about a QB career killer...running a Sparano and/or Henning offense.
     
  7. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I do not agree. Henning's offense had some quarterbacks who played well under it. At least better than Henne ever did.

    It is my opinion that Henne was more of a coach killer than the other way around. He has all the look of a quarterback who should succeed. However he is missing something that is hard to place exactly what it is.
     
  8. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    You would actually expect Henne's numbers to be better. The guy was a 4 year starter at Michigan. He should've been more "Pro Ready" than Tannehill. The fact that their numbers are pretty similar in a lot of areas (though Henne's YPA was 6.4 that year, which is pretty poor. Tannehill's is 7.3), says a lot to me.

    It's all about consistency and improvement. Tannehill has progressed seemingly every week. Here's a neat little stat: Henne only had 3 games in 2009 where he posted a 90 or higher QB rating. Tannehill already has 4 of those game, and there are still 8 more games left to play.
     
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  9. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    I would be tremendously disappointed if Tannehill doesn't surpass Henne as a QB. No way am I saying Tannehill won't be better than Henne. However, Henne didn't come close to being a franchise QB, unless the term is used loosely so just being better than Henne doesn't make a franchise player imo. My question was more along the line of what has Tannehill done to EARN being called a franchise QB as I read so many dolphans claim he is. IMO unless a QB has been able to carry a team with his arm, protect the lead in the 2nd half, and lead the team to victory from behind he hasn't earned the label of franchise.
     
  10. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    You stole my pointz. Noooo you haz all my pointz.
     
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  11. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    Not to mention you are seeing consistent play from Tannehill. He really hasn't had any bad games.
     
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  12. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

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    I think decision making and accuracy is what really separates the two. Ryan Tannehill hasn't thrown an interception... since September. That's pretty impressive as a rookie who had little starting (quarterback) experience in college compared to the other top rated quarterbacks such as Luck and RG3.

    Tannehill has a lot more leadership qualities than Henne as well... plus you can just tell by his demeanor pn the sidelines that the dude absolutely loves the game.
     
  13. DolfanTom

    DolfanTom Livin' and Dyin' w/ Ryan!

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    For one, Tannehill started from day one, while Henne got to watch a very efficient Pennington for 20-plus games before starting. Secondly, it's Tannehill's command out there - he runs the offense, seems in charge, and his ball placement is better (though still needs improvement). Tannehill also throws the ball well on the run, keeps his eyes down field to help extend the play - a trait of some of the elite, seasoned QBs in the league.

    I'll admit, Henne impressed me a lot in '09, and at the end of the year, I thought we had our QB. It didn't take long in 2010 to realize it wasn't happening. But looking at '09 knowing what I know now, I think Henne benefitted a lot by the threat of the running game too. Not that our running game is bad now, but it was really good in '09, Wildcat or not. Ronnie Brown was having a monster year before he got hurt, and Ricky was an amazing b/u. Henne also had a tough time w/ touch passes looking back too - I always thought he would get better, but never did.

    And beyond that - it's jut the "it" factor that you see when you watch the games. It's that thing that you just know when you see it, and you know when you're missing it. Tanny has it, Henne didn't.
     
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  14. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I do agree that people are jumping the gun. If Tannehill doesn't improve from where he is now, he is not a franchise quarterback. However I can see little about him to prove he won't improve.
     
  15. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    If you want an intangible i.e "eyeball test" difference between the two; Henne was deathly afraid of making a mistake. He was constantly checking down. Tannehill rarely checks down, hence the difference in YPA.
     
  16. xphinfanx

    xphinfanx Stay strong my friends.

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    If I remember correct Henne didn't seem like much of a leader starting out and the players didn't all accept him as leading the team the same way Tannehill appears to have stepped in being in charge of the offense and the players seem to accept him as a natural leader.

    Still early though.
     
  17. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    I agree with you that's entirely premature.

    As late as March of 2011, following Chad Henne's second year as a starter for us (third year as a pro), the feeling here was almost unanimous that he, too, was indeed our franchise QB of the future.

    Our crystal ball here isn't real reliable.

    The only way you're going to adjudicate this issue objectively is by comparing Ryan Tannehill on some reliable, objective measure(s) to the rookie seasons of QBs who went on to become franchise QBs.
     
  18. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    I can't say I followed Henning closely with other QBs, but what I recall in 2010 the message was to take chances, but don't make a make a mistake. They kept referring to "chunk yardage" but then tell him to be careful. Terrible coaching for a young QB. From what I remember Henne looked a lot more hesitant in his decision making in 2010 than 2009 and I thought it had everything to do with the contradictory messages from the coaching staff.
     
  19. BlameItOnTheHenne

    BlameItOnTheHenne Taking a poop

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    Tannehill is not a robot.
     
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  20. mandocello19

    mandocello19 Guest

    :lol:
     
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  21. Berezo

    Berezo Well-Known Member

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    No, his processor is a learning computer built by Cyberdyne Systems.
     
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  22. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Constraint is one of the best things you can do to a young quarterback. Giving him as little decisions to make as possible, should work out for him. Unfortunately it didn't work out for Chad Henne.

    Plus they called long passes and Henne wouldn't pull the trigger. People can blame coaching all they want, however there was nothing that really proved it. Henne was not a gun slinger in college, despite what people try to convince themselves.
     
  23. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    I've never heard a single coach say this was a good thing, nor does it really make sense. Putting him in the best position to succeed? Yes. Put constraints on him? No.
     
  24. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Really? It worked last year with Cam Newton.
     
  25. Claymore95

    Claymore95 Working on it... Club Member

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    And Henne still does it. Last night against the Colts, he had a 3rd and long with the game for all intents and purposes out of reach and he checked down to a RB pass for a short gain well short of the 1st down marker, a penalty on the play was the only thing that saved it being a drive killer. As soon as I saw it, I thought "yes, you're still doing the same annoying s**t you did in Miami and never learnt from".

    Tannehill's never made me (yet) pound my head against the wall in frustration in the same way Henne did practically every game.
     
  26. DolfanTom

    DolfanTom Livin' and Dyin' w/ Ryan!

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    if you can’t just see it when he is on the field, then you are blind!
     
  27. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    All good and valid questions. I think Tannehill will prove to find long-term success where Henne couldn't. At least I hope so.

    The number one thing Tannehill has to do if he wants to succeed where Henne failed: Have a TD/INT ratio > 1. After a rough start, he's heading in the right direction in that department. A good game this Sunday and he might get there.
     
  28. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    You just compared Chad Henne to Ryan Tannehill? Are you blind?
     
  29. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    I think that is very untrue. There have been many great QBs who were simply horrible through their rookie season, or even through their first several seasons. There have been very few that have shown the ability to put their team on their back as a rookie. Below are some HOF QBs with their rookie passer rating and record as a starter:


    Steve Young -- 56.9 (1-4) (after playing in the USFL for a while)
    Troy Aikman -- 55.7 (0-11)
    John Elway -- 54.9 (4-6)
    Terry Bradshaw -- 30.4 (3-5)
    Dan Fouts -- 46.0 (0-5-1)

    And some current All Pro QBs:

    Eli Manning -- 55.4 (1-6)
    Matthew Stafford -- 61.0 (2-8)
    Peyton Manning -- 71.2 (3-13)

    I don't think there has ever been a rookie QB who EARNED the label of franchise QB in his first 8 starts. I think Tannehill has shown the qualities necessary to be able to become one though.
     
  30. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think Luck has, and to me is a sure thing, unless injured.

    Tannehill playing near that level coming off an injury gave me some clarity as to a Ryan ceiling.
     
  31. bg12dm13cp10

    bg12dm13cp10 New Member

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    Tannehill probably a little better than Henne.
     
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  32. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Luck has been very good, as he was expected to be. But I don't see how one can say that he has "earned" the label of franchise QB yet. I'm sure he'll get there, but right now he still has a passer rating under 80. Tannehill is pretty much right there with him. Luck had a great game on Sunday, but he's had several lousy ones too. And that is for the guy who was probably the most "can't miss" QB prospect of all time.
     
  33. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    From what i've seen so far Tannehill has the makings of a franchise QB. However....I think he needs to have a strong season next year before he can be annoited such a praise. Too many QB' have bad sophmore seasons in the NFL. Even Matt Ryan had an off year his second season. Cam is struggling this year and Andy Dalton has simmered down a bit too. It's important that we continue to see growth in Tannehill these next few years. A player can flash as Henne did and give hope to a fan base but if they can't follow it up in the oncoming seasons they never make it.
    I do think Chad Henne can still be a good QB and I also think he's the best option for Jacksonville going forward. It's possible that we gave up on Henne too soon but i'll still take the upside of Tannehill over Henne any day of the week. Thing is in my opinion if Chad Henne is Ryan Tannehills floor then we are doing ok.
    In conclusion I think Ryan Tannehills ceiling is that of Matt Ryan. That is the QB who he reminds me of the most where Chad Henne at best could end up being Matt Shaub. It's just way to early to call Ryan Tannehill anything right now. I'm just hoping he continues to have good games and if he can get through year 2 unscathed without injury and without folding under the over bearing expectations (there will be some) he is going to be our franchise QB.
    I think he is deserving of the same chances that Henne got though, and that is providing him with a viable number 1 option at receiver to see how he does.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    he's on pace to having the best rookie performance for a season in history, one more win and he'll tie the record for most wins in a season for a rookie Qb, this was a team that was worst in the league last year, he's going to crush that record with a head coaching change at the beginning if the season..I just don't see the need to wait on a projection because of a stat..his ability to deal with chaos around him and stay completely focused in his reads and receivers is already franchise caliber good..

    He's an absolute eye test player when it comes to his ceiling, Meaning, I'm sure you see things that a stat cannot measure.
     
  35. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Tannehill has had four games out of seven (57%) with a QB rating above 90, and Luck has had only two of nine (22%).

    IMO Luck has played in a way that's far less "special" as a rookie than many QBs who were considered to have nowhere near the potential.

    I think you have to consider that the good ol' "eyeball test" may be influenced by whom you're watching. If you were watching "John Doe" do the same things Andrew Luck has (the game against us notwithstanding), you may have a different impression.
     
  36. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    Luck and the Colts are media darlings now so everything he accomplishes is going to be blown up X10 by the media. He's doing good but he's about to become the sports media's new Tom Brady.
     
  37. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    for me it's about knowing what he was coming out of college, and seeing how it translated at this tempo..

    At some point in evaluation, once you see what it is your looking for, you don't need to see anymore,you just let it evolve, and surround.

    He has a very legitimate chance of having the best rookie Qb season ever..I think that's franchise caliber..

    I'm very excited about Tannehill because of how he looked and competed side by side with a player that I believe is already elite.
     
  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    luck wants nothing to do with the media...The man is leading a ball club to the playoffs.
     
  39. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    What?

    He's got seven games left. He better turn on the juice.
     
  40. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    No doubt Luck is gonna be hyped up but his team is winning and the coach going through what he's going through is no doubt some heralded drama that the media tends to blow up. In all reality though Andrew Luck is kind of what Lebron James was in terms of the chosen one. Forget that Chris Bosh, Dwayne Wade, and Carmelo Anthony were in the same draft as Lebron. Any one of them would have been number 1 overall picks any other year in the draft. As far as Tannehill goes...So maybe Luck is Lebron but hopefully Tannehill is D Wade (assuming RG3 is Melo) and if thats the case we still have ourselves one hell of a franchise player. What am I really saying though??? It's early as hell.
     

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