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Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by Clemsonpanther, Aug 7, 2013.
I was born a snake charmer and I'll die a snake charmer!
I am a Legoist. The Lego movie is basis of my religious beliefs. Everything is awesome...
I'm a heretic. Really. No joke.
7 Reasons Why Religion is a Form of Mental Illness
Hallucinations – the person has invisible friends who (s)he insists are real, and to whom (s)he speaks daily, even though nobody can actually see or hear these friends.
Delusions – the patient believes that the invisible friends have magical powers to make them rich, cure cancer, bring about world peace, and will do so eventually if asked.
Denial/Inability to learn – though the requests for world peace remain unanswered, even after hundreds of years, the patients persist with the praying behavior, each time expecting different results.
Inability to distinguish fantasy from reality – the beliefs are contingent upon ancient mythology being accepted as historical fact.
Paranoia – the belief that anyone who does not share their supernatural concept of reality is "evil", "the devil", "an agent of Satan".
Emotional abuse – religious concepts such as sin, hell, cause feelings of guilt, shame, fear, and other types of emotional "baggage" which can scar the psyche for life.
Violence – many patients insist that others should share in their delusions, even to the extent of using violence.
The TOS of this site demands respectful communication and I have seen you demand that for your opinions. That is right, you should! Yet, somehow you see it as perfectly admissible to suggest those of us who are people of faith to be victims of mental illness! I may be crazy but I do not find that respectful and wonder if you truly do as well?
I'm am in full agreement with you Ohio.
I am a Christian
I force no one to belief as I do
And I don't care to be called "mentally ill" because I believe in God
And I believe in the Bible
I respect every ones own beliefs and I expect them to do the same with me.
And I do not need to apologize for my beliefs!
My parents are Buddhist but I believe in all religions but don't practice any.
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The concept of having faith in the existence of something without having any evidence is something that eludes me. I would not go as far as comparing similarities between mental illness and religion because it does come across as unnecessarily inflamatory. With that being said I do think religious people are nuts! (Joking)
I have no problem with humor. As a pastor, I often jest that the Church would be a wonderful place if there weren't any people in it! But thank you for recognizing that your inability to understand our motivation is not the same thing as mental illness. I find that kind of disagreement as respectful and furthering of a conversation.
If there was evidence, then it wouldn't be faith.
Faith cannot be based on facts and facts cannot be based on faith. If a god did exist and showed himself to the world, no one would believe he exists because everyone would know for a fact he exists. You can only believe in things you don't know and know things or believe things, it cannot be both.
The second someone of faith tries to state their faith as truth, they are actually displaying weak faith. The second someone without faith tries to disprove a faith, they are actually displaying a weak understanding of faith and fact.
I get what you are saying but that is not entirely true either. You can prove that something exists by eliminating all other possibilities. It is how they find blackholes. My oppinion is just that no religion has adequately provided evidence of the existence of a god nor has it eliminated all other possibilities to prove a god exists by process of elimination.
Many religious people I talk to about this will often cite miracles as evidence that a god exists but none have convinced me that any of their examples are legitimate miracles that can only be explained by a God doing it. The argument seems to be that because I might not be able to explain something, that it is an ah-ha moment for their side. At the end of the day I remain unconvinced. It frustrates my family, who are very devout followers, to no end. What is nice is that we all love one another, respect that we have different views and while we argue about it. We agree to disagree and do it respectfully.
I'm not being clear because nothing you said there refutes what i said.
If there was evidence in a god like you're wanting, then god would be a fact not a matter of faith. People of faith, regardless of what they say, only believe in god, they do not know there is a god. Faith and fact are two different things and are absolutely mutually exclusive.
Again, if there was proof of god, then religion is not a matter of faith but a matter of fact. There's no proof of god, and people who believe that say there is proof and say its a fact god exists are weak in faith. The second god becomes a fact, faith in god dies.
Faith and God always reminds me of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.
Considering the scope of HGtG, EVERYTHING should technically remind you of HGtG, including everynothing as well.
Anything that bills itself as a five volume trilogy can't be all bad!
I think this exists in certain realms but it doesnt exist or apply to every religious person. For instance I have argued in the past (at the risk of making this of pofo, not my intention) that cultures who refuse to educate their people outside of bible teachings or who use their religions as an excuse to subjugate women or wage "holy wars" are the ones who are nuts. I think this would fall under that perspective of religion and not apply to every single person who is religious.
There is no logic at all with a belief in a god. They say all things are possible with God (Matthew 19:26). Yet, it cannot stop the typhoons despite the thousands and thousands of prayers? This god sounds like an ***. And at the aftermath of the typhoon, they say, it was a test. From what? Only an insecure puny little minded god would play with its subjects. The god of the bible sucks, hard. Glad it's not real.
Free will trumps all. Anyone can do anything at anytime.
Epicurus seems to be describing a tyrant. Why would one interfere with nature if they created it?
While I would say you are entitled to your beliefs Id say you should probably create your own thread detailing them instead of disrupting this thread talking about which religion you are. Obviously you are atheist. I probably fall in to a category where I believe in a higher power I just dont believe in organized religion for a variety of reasons. There are 100 different ways people can explain that as a test and while you and me may disagree with the majority it isnt our place to say God doesnt exist at all or is an ***. Crapping all over other peoples beliefs as that post does isnt the way to go.
EDIT: Also there thousands of reasons why people believe in a God. My two most common thoughts in having this discussion with others are the need to believe in a higher power for reasons of hope and failure to reason with certain events. Its a logical escape to say a person died young because he was needed more in the afterlife or to say that a person was in the wrong place at the wrong time pertaining to a series of events that could have played out differently. Its easier than trying to ascertain logic out of certain situations in my opinion. Personally I feel God exists in some form but hes treating life as a test for each of us. I think God is trying to determine who will live on after life is over and whose soul is worth saving. Im absolutely not a religious man but God and religion can be separated and broken down much further then what you have done or I have done
You might be able to stop them with wind turbines.
I am 100% serious in this question, "If you are bothered by someone crapping on your beliefs, how strong are your beliefs?"
Im not sure if you meant me personally or just in general....but ill answer with this...
Im not bothered at all because I have a thick skin. However as someone who moderates a forum I try to be mindful of what i say especially as it ascertains to religion and political beliefs (which is one reason I generally dont go in those forums even though my facebook page has plenty of good political rants). Its not so much that someone was offended so much as it is that they have a right to come here without being offended. Thats why I suggested creating a different thread because if it says something like "7 reasons why people who believe in God are nuts" those people simply wont click on it.
To this I'd offer that such ancient books are the foundational pieces in a fully developed life.
To be a convinced skeptic is to have a mind of the highest function, to practice mere dogmatism means thought has been run away from.
This to spite the crowd of the huddled mass, atheistic or religious, the individual does stand tall and have responsibilities the do not involve socially nice constructs that drown the actual person in a miasma of bull****.
And oh my yes, I fully believe in Christ, and him Crucified,the Son of God
I honestly cannot say I know for sure either way if a supreme being exists. I will say though, I do believe if a supreme being does indeed exist, it is nothing like the one described in any of the so called holy texts written by man. I am not self centered enough to think that if a god who created everything in the universe since forever does exist that it gives a flying **** what I eat on Fridays, how I wear my hair, or even who I have sex with. I am not arrogant enough either to declare without reservation that there is certainly nothing out there that maybe beyond my ability to comprehend that works against or manipulates physical law.
Like our old friend Thomas Paine said: "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all"
In our stupid country, they cannot even make a decent effort to harness wind power for electricity. Spain has more wind turbines than the US does. Tiny Germany has more solar panels for that matter. Our govt leaders, Dem and Rep, are all being paid off by the big oil lobby to keep them receiving corporate welfare while really pushing for renewable energy sources gets little govt support. So, I do not expect this idea of using them to slow down Hurricanes is going to get far either, at least not in the foreseeable future.
Same Espana that is bankrupt?
Hat in hand, a functionally failed State, a sort of extra on the Walking Dead.
How nice, heck if there were beautiful sandy beaches in MN, yr rd, their tourist revenue would increase..at what point does a Cynic buy into a bad idea ( as of yet, give it a hundred years) and then use it as a talking point of "belief" no matter how ersatz?
WTF are you blathering about?
So if Spain is literally bankrupt, trying to harness renewable energy sources is the reason why? Maybe they should be more dependent on OPEC then they'd be financially solvent??
My faith is not shaken at all. But I try very hard to treat everyone with courtesy and when someone is insulting or demeaning to others, I will call them on it. It does not facilitate respectful discussion.
If someone does not wish to believe in God, that is their free choice. But to say that I am mentally ill (not as a joke or banter but in utter seriousness) because I do is insulting and demeaning. I do not think that has a place in civil, respectful discussion.
As most of you know by now, I am a Lutheran pastor. I have spent my life as a servant to the servants of God. I work hard at helping folks with their lives in a variety of arenas. Don't want it? Ok. Don't find it valuable? Fine. But when a person demands respects for their own positions and then dumps on mine, I will hold a mirror up on such hypocrisy and ask if it is really the witness they wish to make.
You're mentally ill in your belief.........that there will be respectful religious discussion on the internet.
You got me! You are absolutely correct! I am reminded of the scene in the movie "Animal House" where the guys come back from the road trip and Flounder looks at the wreck which was once his brother's Lincoln. Tim Matheson says, "Hey, you f****d up, you trusted us". When I expect people to act in civil ways on a message board, I set myself up for failure and disappointment. Thanks for your reminder!
Western religion is a human institution dedicated to finding our way to unity with a parent-figure God Who may or may not exist. We hope and assume that God exists, and in His name treat each other the way a good and loving parent would treat his children. Not a bad idea, whether or not God exists.
Where religion goes wrong is when it tries to grab temporal power in order to compel those who do not believe, or wholly believe, to adopt its precepts, values and lifestyles.
People who become learned while contemplating the metaphysics of the Universe, and dedicate their lives to the service of fellow humans in the name of God, deserve great respect (which is why we address them as Reverend or Father), even if their attempts to save our souls become a bit annoying sometimes. They mean well.
Would you agree to the converse? That those who wield temporal power and seek to use it to force people of faith to accept their concepts of morality, power, and life and adopt their positions are equally wrong?
edit: I am not talking about the Arizona case here. I saw that argument used 50 years ago to continue racial segregation in this country. It does not wash with me. Love your neighbor is Christian not deny them services. When you choose to go into business, and that is a choice, you accept the consequences thereof. If your faith or morals or even your bigotry makes that hard, then either work for someone else, find an industry more in line with your thinking, or become a hermit.
The guiding principals of my faith call me to love God and to love my neighbor. Now sometimes out of love, I tell my neighbor that I am concerned that what they may be doing or failing to do is harming themselves or others. My neighbor may perceive that as judgmental (and at times in history it surely has been) but if I am clear about my motives then they can ignore me or heed my concern. It is their choice but I will still "love" them.
But then I am seriously mentally ill!
Here is my problem with religious discussions with a lot of Christians today. I will be making generalizations, so if the following doesn't apply to you, then the following doesn't apply to you. All of my interactions with Christian's haven't been the same.
Christians believe that I am going to "hell" because I don't believe in their zombie messiah or that their whacky rape/slavery/hate filled book is the word of a mythical god, a book that there isn't even consensus among Christians on the proper translation/version of. That's my perspective. I feel that most Christians are mentally weak and would rather accept a ridiculous dogma and belief system than admit to themselves that they don't know most things, that morality is determined by society, etc...
I'm not going to go fully into all of my feelings about Christianity because that isn't my point here. My point is that as soon as I start to express my view point to them, I'm being an ***. I'm denigrating them and their god for spite, yet they have no issues with telling me that I am damned to hell for eternity because of my beliefs. Some of them have been strangers that have literally shouted this at me through a megaphone. Which is worse? Believing that some one has a mild personality defect, or that some one is destined for eternal damnation?
This sensitivity bleeds over into everything. My wishing you happy holidays is not an attack on Christmas. No Christ isn't the "reason for the season". If you want to be technical about it there is very little to support Christ being born on the 25th of December, while there is a lot to support it being an appropriated holiday. The feast of Sol Inveticus, the winter solstice, etc.. And, even if you fully accept it being the birthday, it's not the only holiday in the time frame. I'm not offended if you wish me a merry Christmas, why do you feel the need to correct me if I wish you happy holidays? Or, if a company wants their employees to be inclusive when interacting with customers? Christmas is one of the holiday's that you are being wished happiness for. This seems seems like a minor point, but it informs to my experience with Christianity, and how the religion enterfaces with society.
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I agree there is a persecution complex the permeates the Christian collective. I also believe that complex is silly considering Christians are the overwhelming majority and are represented in our government 10 fold more than any other religion. But, as an atheist, I realized being intolerant of their faith is absolutely the same thing that they do to me that ticks me off. Gandhi & MLK didn't change the world by giving back the same they got. I see no reason to not follow their example.
I think we should only fight the religious when they are on the offensive and even then fight their motivation for attacking not necessarily their religion.
Where did you see intolerance in my post?
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I think when you call someone's god a "zombie messiah" you're being intolerant. You clearly said it to be insulting. Granted it wasn't a super mean thing you said but still.....
You're white knighting a weird thing.
No, I didn't say that to be insulting, I wrote it because it's how I feel. I think it's a perfect summation of my feelings about the myth. I don't see it as different than voodoo zombies. Jesus was a historical figure. The resurrected prophesized son of god is a zombie messiah. If a Christian said he believed I was a sinner would you take them to task?
But, this speaks to my point.
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Its not a weird thing at all. I explained precisely why I'm saying what I'm saying.
I'm sure its how you feel, but I find it hard to believe you don't see how calling someone's god a "zombie messiah" isn't insulting. Its insulting when a Christian says horrible things about gay lifestyles, I'm sure its how they genuinely feel too...doesn't make the words any less insulting.
And yes, i would take them to task.
Okay, maybe it does come across as unnecessarily inflammatory to say religion is a form of mental illness. So I guess I should not have gone there. Did not really intend to step on any toes. Sorry sorry sorry about that. Ohio, you and RevRick are two of the nicest persons of faith that I have ever known, and if anyone could convince me of the value in adhering to a religion, it would as likely be one of you two as anyone else I've known.
However if one listed these 7 characteristics without mentioning religion, don't they describe mental illness? Then when one looks at characteristics required to follow a particular religion aren't at least some of these 7 things part of it? To be a member of a monotheistic religion it's required to believe in an invisible man/entity in the sky, more or less dispensing justice to all mankind. Or at least it appears that way to me. It is required to believe in and communicate with something for which there is no tangible proof of it's existence. If one were to do that outside of following a religion, the person would probably be considered somewhat of a nut. IMO anyway.