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Which reciever do you want gone and why?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Ultra, Dec 17, 2009.

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  1. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    I'm going to guess Camarillo goes. Why? Just lack of versatility. He's not adding as much to ST like Ginn and Hartline do. Bess has been our leading receiver and (as I said previously) leads the NFL in receiving 3rd down conversions. I don't think the brass will let that get away just due to his clutch slot play.

    Camarillo has been great for us, but he is also coming off a major injury last year, is the oldest of the "bunch", and does the least when you consider versatility with multiple roles on the team. As I said, Hartline is a very promising guy that has learned the routes of every receiver position, makes catches, and is a solid ST contributor. Further, he leads all our WR's with the most TD catches this year. Clearly he's developing a chemistry with Henne. Ginn is currently leading the AFC in kick returns and still has deep speed, plus he was our #1 pick - we're not going to just cut him.

    I predict we take Ginn, Bess, and Hartline with us into next year. I also am estimating we either draft or acquire a top WR in FA.

    This is why I wouldn't waste my time with Turner anymore. I don't know what our FO is doing with this guy, but he's using up a roster spot and is not getting activated. We have one of the worst WR corps in the NFL, lack a bigger-bodied threat, and the only guy that fits the physical description of that on our team can't get on the field. With this group of WRs. And he doesn't do ST.

    That all equals a recipe for disaster if you ask me. The way the FO is building this team, you either need to be a top-flight player at your position, or contribute in other areas making you versatile. (See: Lex Hilliard, Jason Allen, Patrick Cobbs, etc).

    Turner is a one-trick pony that isn't even that good at that one trick. I'd be interested in hearing any logical defense for keeping him on the team next year.
     
  2. M1NDCRlME

    M1NDCRlME Fear The Spear

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    Ummm......there might be slight problem with that
     
  3. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    They both have more this year than Bess does in his career.
     
  4. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    First, Ginn isnt turning into a pretty good returner. Has always has been, and always will be a GREAT returner.

    Second, Bess sucks at punt returns. He muffs every other punt, and never breaks a big one. Chad Henne can do that.

    Third, if one WR must go, it's the one that gives us nothing. Patrick Turner.
     
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  5. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    :pity:

    Bess is a 3rd down slot receiver that we've been asking to play other roles. I would hope he doesn't have more "big" plays than our 1 & 2 guys, because if he did, that speaks more about our other guys than him.
     
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  6. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    Ginn will be traded IMO.

    Ravens, Jaguars, and Texans could all be prime for Ginn.
     
  7. KeyFin

    KeyFin Well-Known Member

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    Camarillo and Bess are the go-to guys, and it was this type of thinking that allowed us to throw Wes Welker over to our rivals in New England. Forget what players could be...I could be a ballerina next year. That doesn't mean I will be, and it doesn't mean to keep players for their inherent potential.

    If Ginn and Hartline are projects worth waiting on, then sign them to the practice squad if we hire better players. Henne throws bullets; it takes a little time to adjust to a QB like that mid season. I think our current crop of receivers is better than what most think, even Ginn pulled down some tough passes over the past two weeks. As Henne progresses and the cordinators gain confidence in him, he will make our current WR's look like superstars.
     
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  8. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yep,
    Well here's the major flaw in your logic;
    Davone Bess is our Wes Wanker, and actually is WAY ahead of where Wanker was after 1+ years.
    Ginn is our Randy Moss, cept he is much closer to being Sinorice Moss cept he has hit a couple of home-runs on kick returns.
    That being said, if we los any of the 4, I predict it would be Ginn, cept, unless they can replace his kick return ability, he will remain as well.....MUCH to my dismay :yes:
     
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  9. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I'd want Ginn gone on the stipulation that he gets to go to the Eagles. Id like to see what McNabb could do with Jackson, Maclin, and Ginn with Westbrook and McCoy out of the backfield.
     
  10. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

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    This is it. Patrick Turner is the EASY choice to be let go.
     
  11. m ino

    m ino New Member

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    why not trade camarillo? we are gonna have a hard time getting rid of ginn but cam would be much easier to move for atleast a third round pick to teams like k.c,jags,chicago who all desperately need wr help over the off=season. we might as well if we are only going to throw to our money reciever 3-4 times every other game.we are wasting his talent in the same way we wasted wes's
     
  12. CashInFist

    CashInFist Well-Known Member

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    Well, G-Cam has been our best hands WR and runs the best routes of all of our WRs so far this year, imo. He just had over 100 yards with clutch catches last game...

    Also, what could we trade him for? a 6th-7th round pick? No thanks...

    I'd rather let his leg fully heal this offseason and keep him, and cut/trade possible bust Patrick Turner.
     
  13. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I could've swore I've seen the same sentence written about a former dolphins WR who many thought was great, not that I'd necessarily agree.
     
  14. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't see how it can be anyone other than Ginn.

    He's got a clear case of Chris Chambers disease- You cant get Ginn into the game unless you feed him the ball, but feeding him the ball is incredibly disruptive to your offense because he's so unreliable. Everyone once and a while against a bad team(Generally Buffalo), you can force a tremendous game, and get a couple of good plays here and there, but there are huge slumps where the guy would be less harmful if he weren't even on the field.

    The rest of the roster can all handle being complimentary players- Because they already are. We get a true #1, they are right at home. No transition, no changes.
     
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  15. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ain't a chance in hell after one season.
     
  16. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    I'm not sure why it would offend you, even if you were related to the guy. CC was my favorite player when he was on the team, so it's not like I am making the comment in order to slight him. Is there some unwritten law about making comparisons between two players who share(d) a similar dissension amongst dolphins fans?
     
  17. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

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    Aren't they cousins anyways?
     
  18. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Tony Martin had a better 1st season in MIA than Gadsden ever had in any point of his career. Gadsden was ok, but I'm just saying he wasn't all that special IMO.
     
  19. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    i have to think the receivers on the bubble are Camarillo and Turner. Although Ginn, Bess and Hartline are nothing special they all fit certain receiver molds. speed, slot and possession guy. i think both camarillo and turner will be brought back and if turner flashes any type of potential Camarillo will be the first to be let go. If Turner is a bust then him and Camarillo will both be let go
     
  20. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Marty Booker and Randy McMichael would surely count under those parameters.

    And the problem I described with Chambers? Not in any sense limited to his time here. It's very much a continuing problem in San Diego. He was exactly the same guy with an elite quarterback, and weapons to keep the heat off him.
     
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  21. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I'm knocking Ginn here, but that's ridiculously overboard. Ginn has taken shots. He took one on the opening kick this week. His career, 175 yard game in Buffalo he opened taking a shot.

    Chambers took the shot in Denver and it gave him a permanent case of alligator arms.
     
  22. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Getting knocked out a few times does not mean the sentence you wrote couldn't be applied to both players in the eyes of many people.

    Lots of people have seen Ted take pretty big hits, and even hold on to the ball. Whether it happened more frequently with Chambers I cannot say, as it is not fresh in my mind. But whether you choose to see it or not doesn't mean it hasn't happened (re: Ginn).
     
  23. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    Wait, so Ginn's too big a coward to take a hit, yet you go on to say he got nailed just as recently as last week? No, someone isn't proving themselves to be completely off base here or anything. :rolleyes:
     
  24. mroz

    mroz Fix the OL Club Member

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    You have to keep Bess, Greg C and Hartline. That leaves Ginn and Turner as expendible. As of right now Turner has not proved that he can play at the NFL level. At least with Ginn you are going to get a big play every once in a while. SO I would have to say Turner.
     
  25. Delfin Alejandro

    Delfin Alejandro Premier League Champs

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    Maybe Ginn should start doing a little yoga with Ricky to help me relax and loose the fear of getting hit.
     
  26. Merauder

    Merauder Perseverance

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    I don't think you can judge a WR like Turner until he actually steps foot in a real game. That's the only way to tell. Maybe the coaches are happy with Hartline and the rest of the receivers, and haven't had the need to suit Turner up. Maybe he is ready to go.
     
  27. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    I agree with this thread - we need a big-playmaker speed WR that also is a fullback and seeks out contact against bigger players.
     
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  28. finfaninilinois

    finfaninilinois Active Member

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    apperantly to you 3rd down receptions to move the chains arent big plays !!
     
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  29. Silverphin

    Silverphin Well-Known Member

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    I guess we should draft Tebow as a project.
     
  30. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

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    They didn't count to most people when Ginn had 7 or whatever against the Colts, why do they count now?
     
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  31. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

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    And Ginn had a great game. :yes:
    -
    EDIT: Scratch that.
    He had a good game.
    He was 1 catch away from having a great game.
    -
    -
    BTW: How many career catches does each have?
    Just askin..... :shifty:
     
  32. finfaninilinois

    finfaninilinois Active Member

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    to me receptions to move the chains are big plays no matter who it is - bess is just the best at it.

    you dont let a receiver like that go
     
  33. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    Again - he is a different type of receiver. Welker has more catches than Moss every year but I don't hear people argue that Welker is one of the best receivers of all time.

    Guys have roles. Comparing Ginn and Bess doesn't make sense - they are asked to do different things and have different skill sets.

    Fact of the matter is that no one on this team is asked to do what Ginn is, so comparing him to our WR's doesn't make sense.

    Which brings us back to the point of the thread - Bess, Cam and to some extent Hartline are asked to do the same thing - meaning we have 3 WR's who provide something similar. I would say that makes one of them expendable.

    Until we get someone who can provide speed, Ginn is not expendable.

    I would argue that even if we do get someone with speed, we should double up - seeing how our offense looked when Ginn fizzled shows you need to have more than one option at a position.

    Ginn's value as a KR and his potential at WR outweigh both his trade value and cost of cutting (and replacing) him.
     
  34. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

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    You are exactly correct, and that goes back to my previous post....
    Bess is Wesley wanker, cept he is Heads and Shoulders above where Wanker was at this point in his career.
    Ginn is our Randy Moss.......well, kindve :pity:
     
  35. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    He is ahead of where Welker was but he only has 3 less statistical drops than Ginn and 5-6 fumbles (I believe 3 lost) on the year as well.

    Ginn has definitely not lived up to the hype - but my point is that if we cut or trade him, we have to sign someone that can return kicks and another speed option.

    I think we should go get a legit #1 that hopefully can provide speed and keep Ginn as a KR and occasional deep threat. The cost of replacing Ginn is greater than cost of keeping him, even as strictly a KR.

    We have 3 nice possession receivers - one of them is definitely more expendable. Bess has the greatest value, then Hartline, then Cam. Which makes Cam the most expendable WR on the team.

    And for the record - I am a HUGE Camarillo fan. But to take our offense to the next level we need guys who can get down the field, not another short yardage possession guy.
     
  36. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I haven't read through this thread so this may have already been said.

    IMO Hartline and Cam are redundant. Cam is more reliable right now (consistent routes and run blocking) Hartline has more potential upside, though. If we add a true #1, he would best be complimented by Cam or Hartline as the #2, Bess as the slot and Ginn as the 4th/KR or if he returns to last year's consistency as the #2.

    That would be our best WR corp, but really we could get by with Bess and the #1. Anybody else is expendable. With Bess and a true #1 we can have NE's passing offense with our strong running game and our developing D. As our young secondary continues to grow and with the pass rush we're capable of, we'll be dangerous next season. Obviously there are still some holes, but every team has some. Just adding that #1 (or even a great receiving TE) would give us enough fire power to be a real SB threat.
     
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  37. azfinfanmang

    azfinfanmang Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Interestin you are comparing Ginn to Bess.
    I couldve SWORN you mentioned somewhere it wasn't fair to compare them?
    I will have to go back and see if I can find where somebody said that.
    Of course Ginn adds value as a kick returner, but I am of the opinion you don't pay a KR nearly the kind of money Ginn is making...we will see how it turns out.
     
  38. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    Ha - good catch on the comparison. I apologize for the hypocrisy on that.

    I don't know that he deserves to be paid that much as a KR - but cutting him costs money - and is it worth trading him for a 5th+ rounder and then having to sign someone else to be a deep threat and someone else to return kicks?

    His salary is pretty minimal and the cost of replacing him is going to more or less be a wash.

    Also, if I'm not mistaken we still have to pay his pro-rated salary bonus if we trade him.

    Again - why cut a guy who does provide value - even if just on kicks - when you have 3 guys in the WR corps that provide the same or similar attributes. You don't create a hole somewhere when you have a surplus somewhere else.
     
  39. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    :lol: PhiNomia I was going to point out that discrepancy too, glad you acknowledged it. :)

    Hartline is actually our deep threat right now, statistically. He also is proving to be developing a rapport with Henne to the point that he is becoming a favored target.

    If I had to guess Henne's order of looks on pass plays, I'd guess this:

    for 1st and 2nd down pass plays: (with the exception of a streak/fly route specifically for Ginn)
    1) Hartline
    2) Bess/Cam
    3) Ginn

    for 3rd down pass plays:
    1) Bess/Cam
    2) Hartline
    3) TD the Dolphin
    4) Jon Bonamego
    5) Ginn

    for 4th down pass plays:
    1) Camarillo
    2) Bess
    3) Hartline

    Based on target statistics and splits, this appears to be the order. :)
     
  40. PhiNomina

    PhiNomina White-Collar Redneck

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    Hasn't Ginn had a couple of big receptions the last few weeks?

    Hartline - you mention as the new big-play receiver, doesn't have a reception on a ball thrown more than 20 yards.

    The rest of your post is you speculating who Henne looks to and typical jokes putting Ginn down without supporting it with facts. Hartline has 12 catches the last 4 weeks, Ginn has 9 - yet Hartline is Henne's favorite receiver?

    I hope we find a superstar receiver that replaces Ginn and we never talk about him again. Fact of the matter is that the kid has potential at a position we desperately need help. We have a bunch of guys who are good in short yardage situations and have great hands. Ginn is the only guy capable of getting open purely on speed. If he can get his hands in check with his improved route running, he could be a solid player for us.

    Three possession guys is redundant. To the original point of the post - if I had to part ways with one of our WR not named Turner, it would be Cam for that reason.
     

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