Which reciever do you want gone and why?

Yep
Peace and I won't argue this post at all
Also, very nice to come clean on the hypocracy My hat is off to you

 

Sooner or later this team needs to add some superstars to be legitimate contenders. To do that you have to develop guys with potential that may not show it right away - Cam Wake, for example.

 

This is relative, depending on what you mean by "big".

Ginn's game log for 2009:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GinnTe00/gamelog/2009/

I see one big game against Indy this year. His second-best game was 2 catches for 57 yards and a touch against the Jets. His 3rd best receiving total? 34 yards against New England. I guess it is relative, "big receptions". Were they big as in situational? Oh sure, the tip-toe catches along the sideline, etc. I wouldn't say Ginn has had a big game outside of the Indy game, and the Jets game if we're going to count the ST play as well.

I realize you think I'm slamming Ginn here but I'm not. i'm 100% going off of stats. The 3rd down receiving looks post was a joke citing the other people, but that was just to add humor. You look at 3rd down passing splits and Ginn is the least targeted Dolphins WR of the bunch. This is just the facts man, not hate.

Completely incorrect. Where are you getting your information from, or are you just assuming based on what you can recollect?

Taken directly from NFL.com, check out positions 36 & 39 (Ginn & Hartline):
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...rience=null&tabSeq=1&qualified=true&Submit=Go

Hartline has 4 "over 20 yard" completions on his resume this year to be specific. Hartline also leads all Dolphin receivers with average yards per catch, at 14.4 (which I also pointed out is just .5 yards behind Andre Johnson's average yards per catch). I guess at this point it adds little to the conversation to point out that Hartline has our longest reception of the year (even longer than Ginn), with that 67 yarder TD. If that's not our team-leading deep threat, I don't know what is. (As a matter of fact, even Ricky has a longer reception than Ginn this year, with his 59-yarder).

I didn't knock Ginn. I said Hartline is the deep-threat on this team right now. The facts back me up here.

I actually pulled these conclusions from the stats I posted earlier, and ESPN's splits that you pointed out. I'm just going off of targets, downs, week by week.

I don't know what math you're using, but it makes sense to me. Ginn has been targeted 16 times in the last 4 games (since you took that sample size), and Hartline has been targeted 22 times. 22 is greater than 16.

Ginn: http://www.fftoday.com/stats/playerprofile.php?PlayerID=2755
Hartline: http://www.fftoday.com/stats/playerprofile.php?PlayerID=11108&LeagueID=1

So yes, I'm saying Hartline is fast becoming Henne's favorite target, and there's your proof sir.

You should probably stop with your defensive mentality that we're all out to get Ginn. At no point have I advocated getting rid of him, and here I'm just posting stats.... Stats that you cannot argue with.

If you read what I wrote in the other thread, I even advocated keeping Ginn and said the odd man out should be Turner or Camarillo. I think your support of Ginn is blinding you from reading, here. Don't misappropriate your irritations with me, you're wasting your time.


You either have a very short-term memory, or you like to argue just because.

 

By big receptions I meant at critical times. I read your post as arguing that Henne looks to other receivers in critical moments and I was pointing out that Ginn has had his number called and delivered in those situations.

As for Hartline - I'm basing the number off of balls THROWN over 20 yards. My entire point is arguing that Ginn has the speed to get open deeper down the field which is beneficial to our entire offense.

Also Hartline has 22 targets over the last four weeks - Camarillo has 21 and Bess 30 - I am not sure how that equates to Hartline being Henne's preferred WR.

And I'm not arguing just to argue - the point of this thread was who would you cut not named Turner. If you agree with me it is Camarillo then what are we arguing about? Almost every one of my posts has ended with me pointing out our surplus of possession guys being the reason one of them should be the odd man out?

I'm not sure why you keep dissecting my posts if we are in agreement?

 

I'm only replying to the posts you made that were either incorrect factually, or that I disagreed with.

I'm (obviously) not in disagreement with the original discussion.

I never stated who was Henne's favorite. My post actually said, verbatim:
"If I had to guess Henne's order of looks on pass plays, I'd guess this:"
I later said I drew those conclusions from looking at the stats and what I can recollect first-hand, hence my using the word "guess" twice in the post.

I also specifically said I didn't consider Hartline to be the preferential target on 3rd or 4th downs, as you can see in my first post today in this thread..... So I don't know where you got that I said Hartline was de-facto Henne's favorite overall target. I never said that or even alluded to it - only that Hartline was a preferred target over Ginn. I did say Hartline is "fast becoming Henne's favorite target" in my last post, but that is because of the drastic increase in looks lately. I did not mean that Hartline is Henne's most targeted individual statistically for the year. If I did say that, I apologize as I was obviously wrong.

I don't think there is a statistical record of balls "in the air" over 20 yards to receivers, and frankly this would be a pretty meaningless statistic, unless you're trying to weed out the Besses from the Vincent Jacksons of the world. The reality is while Hartline isn't the burner that Ginn is, Hartline does have a similar number of catches with a significant enough difference in yards per reception. Whether Hartline catches a 10 yard out and runs five more yards versus Ginn just catching a 11 yard pass & running out of bounds doesn't matter for this conversation, in my opinion. (given their average yards per catch statistic of almost 15 for Hartline & 11 for Ginn).

I think we got off track when I was posting statistics of our receivers and you read that as a Ginn-bash and took it from there. That's the confusion IMO.

It's all good, my man.

 

The Hartline thing came from this quote by you -

"Hartline is actually our deep threat right now, statistically. He also is proving to be developing a rapport with Henne to the point that he is becoming a favored target."

Perhaps you meant on deep routes and I read it as all-around favorite target.

Also - the ESPN.com splits provide stats on receptions based on how far the ball traveled in the air. Interesting stuff to check out. For instance, Bess has 22 balls caught behind the line of scrimmage this year (which is why I don't like to look at targets to catch as a stat).

And I was trying to make the point of splitting up the Bess' from the Vincent Jacksons. My point is that we have enough of the Bess and need the Jacksons. Hartline is somewhere in the middle in my mind. He does have the most YAC but those are based almost completely on the 67 yard slant. Take that away and he averages only 12 ypc.

I love arguing this stuff - no ill-will meant by any of it!

 

The Hagan guy needs to go

 

Agreed man, I'm not singling you out or anything. I enjoy healthy, flame-free debate.

But please don't say "take away this reception and the stats are x". We could do the same for Teddy, remember! You take away Ginn's deep catch for 57 yards and his numbers don't exactly "excite" either.

I said favored, which isn't the same as favorite, necessarily.... especially when the original post in question was referring to on specific downs. A player could be favored on a given down without being the QB's favorite receiver, if that makes sense.

Regarding your last paragraph - I agree. We have enough possession guys. But I won't discount Hartline's numbers just because he isn't running flys every pass play. The point is he is consistently getting more yards per catch. To me, that's just proof in the pudding.

 

I love Hartline - I actually think he and Ginn starting with bess in the slot would be our best way to loosen up a defense.

I hate when people do the "take away X play" but thought it was relevant for the fact that we were talking about "big plays" and I was trying to make a point about "deep plays" in comparison to a short play that ends up going deep. Otherwise you could argue that guys who take a screen 60 yds are our best deep play options.

Either way - go Phins. I think we've argued this to death haha.

 

I don't know too many superstars that didn't at least show their potential immediately. There are a few, but I think I could count them on both hands and still have a finger or two left.

 

http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr

Cam ranked 22 while Bess ranked 42 out of 85 players who've caught 45 passes or more, Hartline is not yet ranked but has 3TD's to bess's one TD.

For the life of me I can't understand everyone's love of Bess, this is a guy that has dropped balls and fumbled more this year alone than Cam has in his whole career yet you would keep him and throw Cam under the bus. Imho this is just as shortsighted as all the hate put on Ginn. And I would invite everyone to look at the stats since Ginn's major dress down just before the Jets second game because since then he has run back to kicks for TD's and given us a bunch of yards on kick offs while only dropping 1 more ball. While Bess has continued to mess up with dropped balls and fumbles and Camarillo has finally been allowed to get into the game more and produce, just like he did last year!

If I go by numbers only, not what looks good on TV, My golden boy is Camarillo, my #2 is Hartline, and I need a number 1. I use Ginn as my kick/punt returner and speed guy and get rid of the rest!

I know that does not set well with all of you who consider Bess to be the second comming of Wes Welker but imho Bess couldn't hold Welker's lunch pail or Greg Camarillo's either for that matter!

 

I place more trust in the evaluations at PFF than football outsiders. Too often I see stuff at FO that don't make sense to me. I guess you can add their rating of Bess to that as well.

Going by PFFs ratings, they have Bess rated higher than any of our other WRs. Here's the link:

http://profootballfocus.com/by_posi...e=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1

Now Bess has disappointed me with his fumbles and inconsistency, but I see a higher ceiling on him. IMO Cam is a guy that can be taken out of the game by a good CB. But if you put Bess in the slot I think he could be the best slot WR in the league.

 

If you go by the numbers, Davone Bess is going to SHATTER any numbers put up by Wesley Wanker
Bess is in his second year, and is during his tenure, only one player has more receptions....Ted Ginn, who has 2 more catches in an extra year of service.
I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I don't think Wanker had any real numbers till his third or fourth year
Like it or not, Bess does 2 things VERY wellh
1 Get open
2 Catch the Ball

 

These are figures from your link:

Bess has been targeted 80 times to Camarillo's 50 times and caught 62 balls to Camarillo's 39 yet Cam is only 120 yards in total yards less than Bess. Cam's catch rate is 78% to Bess's 73.8% and you still say Bess is better? I'm sorry but I just can't agree.

BTW I think your link is one game behind where we are really at and if true I don't understand your trust of their evaluation but to each his own. My guess is that we won't agree but thats ok.

 

of course cam is going to have more ypc - he runs differant/longer routes than bess.
who's better who knows - all i know is bess is #1 in the league in first down receptions on 3rd down - which tells me 1 thing when it is 3rd down Henne looks for bess to move the chains - nuff said

 

They run different routes b/c they have different skills. Cam is low end #2 WR while Bess is a high end slot WR. There is no position where Cam has the talent to be a top 5. But Bess can be a top 5 slot WR.

You also have to remember that Cam has been in the league longer. He's probably at his ceiling right now. Bess is in his second season. By the time he reaches his 4th year he will be even better than he is now. I expect that by then he'll be the best slot WR in the league.

And I don't agree that they are one game behind, but even if they were that would have no bearing on the quality of their evaluations.

 

And last year, before he got hurt it was Cam and Bess couldn't even get onto the field. Yet thru it all Bess continues to have the dropsys and fumbles while Cam just keeps catching those hard to catch balls and makes it look easy doing so.

As to what this FO will do I have no idea nor do I feel any here do either. So, at the end of the day, I trust Jeff, Tony, and Tuna to keep the chains moving. And as was said earlier after they're (the WRs) gone we will laiment the loss because of their production elsewhere.

 

Cam's a bit slow, that's really about the only knock you can make on him. Unfortunately it could be the difference between being around and getting cut next year. There's still no other guy on the team I'd rather see targeted right now if the ball HAS to be caught. I think you're selling Cam short saying he's a low end #2. The guy has done nothing but make plays for us for a while now. Has he ever dropped a ball?

All that being said I really like Bess and would keep him over Cam if I had to b/c of the speed. Not that Bess is a burner but he certainly seems to be quicker. I would personally like them to keep Cam, Bess, and Hartline and get a real number one. That would be a good receiving corps IMO.

 

Okay,
I want to throw a monkey wrench into this scenario...
-
What if.....what if Patrick Turner really is the best of our 5 WR's and he just hasn't grown into it yet?
If he were to come into his own during the off-season and out perform everybody currently on the roster, he has the speed and size we need, if he were able to work with Henne et el and fix whatever is currently keeping him on the PS, I would be fine standing pat (pun intended) with the 5 guys we have and concentrate on getting Gresham in the draft instead.....what say you?

 

sometimes in the game of football you dont try to take a hit. his job on KR is not to run guys over......so if he takes a hit.....its not cause hes looking for it.....its because he couldnt get out of the way fast enough.

 

so now being thrown to 10 times in 6+ games.....having 9 catches and maybe 70 yards in all of those games combined no tds....is improving after getting dressed down?

wow.....talk about blowing stuff out of proportion.

and actually bess has less drops, with 20+ more passes thrown his way. so good try.

 

If he were too big a coward to take a hit, he never would. Period. If he were too big a coward to take a hit he wouldn't be on the football field. The same goes for everyone in this league.

 

Yes last year, and perhaps the year before. Though it was a very small number last year.

 

Well sure if Turner turned into a true #1 we'd be set. But realistically he's shown less than Hagan or Brandon London did. Standing pat and hoping for Turner is a long shot at best. Honestly, I have more hope that Ginn will turn it around than I do in Turner. And I'm not standing pat waiting on Ginn.

 

The difference is that Cam only does well against second or third CBs. You put him on good CBs and he disappears. And even then it's only occasionally. It's not like he dominates against even the average CBs more than a couple of times a year. That's why he's a low end #2.

Look, I love Cam's consistency. He has good hands and is good run blocker, but the reality is that he probably wouldn't start for any other team in the league.

 

agreed so obviously when hes called "tentative" to take hits or called "soft" its "soft" in football terms......maybe not exactly in real world situations.

compared to most nfl players hes soft. thats what is the issue people have imo.

 

And I don't usually say anything if people call him soft, because compared to most NFL players he is. But if someone says he is afraid to take a hit, or afraid of contact, that is where I take issue.

 

I think at the WR position it is fairly common. Vincent Jackson is a guy that we would all love to add to our WR corps but didn't show much until his 4th year.

There have been posts that did comparisons and showed that year 3 is when receivers normally start to put it together.

What is funny is that I think Ginn HAS put it together (in terms of everything a WR needs to do before the catch) but his hands fell apart. For all the flack he takes on blocking ability - there was a link earlier in the thread that had his blocking rating out better than Bess (and Bess outweighs him by 10 lbs).

Cam to me is our best WR - but he is also a slower, shorter version of Brian Hartline. Hartline will probably continue to take Cam's chances and make him redundant - which is why he is probably the most expendable.

Cam is easily one of my favorite players on the team, but if you add a big-time WR to the mix - everyone else's roles fall into place but Cams.

As mentioned above - I think we need a big-time TE more than WR. This offense is perfect for a TE. WR are never going to put up huge numbers, but a TE could flourish.

 

It looks like Julius Pruitt is going to make it through the year on the practice squad.

At 6'2", 220 and 4.4 speed, I wouldn’t be surprised to see him contending for a WR spot next year.

 

uh, wtf?

 

Excuse me, I seem to remember a 200 + yard game against the Jets where his 2 TDs won us that game while Mr. Bess did squat and no I didn't blow anything out of proportion, sorry. Plus, as Sparano has stated Ginn has been open several times that Henne has not seen him to get him the ball. Of course I'm sure there are some who will blame Ginn for that oversight, also.