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Who is Charles Harris?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by thetylernator, Apr 27, 2017.

  1. thetylernator

    thetylernator You're as cold as ice, Officer Friendly.

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    Path to the Pros featuring Charles Harris, presented by CBS Sports:


    Harris came to the game late, not putting on a football jersey until his junior year of high school. It didn't take him long to figure it out, however. His athleticism earned him a scholarship from his in-state university, though he redshirted his first year on campus to work on his game while guys like Shane Ray, Markus Golden, and Michael Sam were chasing quarterbacks. As a reserve, Harris had four tackles for loss and two sacks, starting once while Golden was injured. His breakout season came in 2015, as he garnered second-team All-SEC honors after leading the conference with 18.5 tackles for loss (seven sacks). League coaches voted him second-team all-conference again in 2016 (12 tackles for loss, nine sacks), despite his team's poor 4-8 season.

    ANALYSIS

    STRENGTHS
    Long legs with well defined bubble. Has loose, fluid hips. Explodes out of his stance in search of gap work vs. run game. Lateral quickness makes it a challenge to reach him or cross his face for offensive linemen. Good first step quickness. Plays with energy and keeps it cranked up until the whistle blows. Runs with high knees and athletic, long strides in the open field. Basketball standout in high school who uses nimble feet for an effective spin move. Can unleash spin counter in either direction. Plays on either side of the line and can play with a hand down or standing up. In 2015, led team in sacks, tackles for losses and hurries and was second in tackles. Uses early speed-to-power to create movement before attacking the tackle's inside shoulder. Showed some ability to drop in space when called upon.

    WEAKNESSES
    Found himself too easily engulfed by size this season. Gives ground on the edge and can be widened out of his run fit. Hands must get better at point of attack. Needs to punch and own the point. Rides on blocks rather than shucks them. Lacks desired glass-chewing mentality against the run. Plays with slow reaction time to counters and misdirection and can lose track of the ball. Needs earlier shoulder turn as rusher to prevent early pass sets from punching him as squared-up rusher. Slow to activate his counter spin back inside. More violent approach with hands at top of his rush would help grease the edge. Productivity dropped after struggling with new defensive scheme.

    DRAFT PROJECTION
    Round 1

    SOURCES TELL US
    "Don't get caught up in his numbers this year. He just didn't mesh with what they asked him to do. He's also got to be coachable and I think he may have fought the changes a little too much. What I saw in 2015 is what I think he's going to be." NFC North regional scout

    NFL COMPARISON
    Connor Barwin

    BOTTOM LINE
    High-cut pass rusher with good athleticism but concerns regarding his ability to drop anchor against the run. Ironically, Harris might be best suited as a penetrator which is something he fought against this season. His hands can be improved as pass rush weapons, but he has agility and footwork that can't be taught. Harris can play on the edge in a 4-3 or 3-4 front and should be the next in a line of early contributing defensive ends coming out of Missouri.

    - Lance Zierlein

    Some notables from PFF's scouting report on Harris:
    • Averaged a sack, hit or hurry once every 6.0 pass-rushing attempts in 2016.
    • Has arguably the best spin move among pass-rushers in this draft class. Can get into the body of an opposing offensive tackle and spin free at speed. Picked up nine of his 59 total pressures on spins.
    • Very good get-off on pass-rushes. Helped him to a pass-rushing productivity rating of 14.4 on rushes from the right side of the defense, seventh-best among 3-4 outside linebackers in 2016.
    • Consistently one of the nation’s top pass-rushers in two years as a starter. Had the ninth-best pass-rushing grade among edge defenders in 2015, and 12th-best in 2016.
    • Got the better of draftable prospect Dan Skipper when Missouri took on Arkansas, beating him for two hits, a hurry and a forced holding penalty.
    • Had at least five pressures in eight of the 12 games he played in this year.
    • Pushed around far too easily against the run this season. Didn’t offer much resistance against down blocks, and his run stop percentage of just 4.9 percent was tied for 91st-best among 3-4 outside linebackers.
    • Caught over pursuing far too often. Sometimes inside, sometimes outside, and sometimes upfield. Seemed to lose track of the play.
    • Was overpowered by opposing offensive tackles at times. Big part of the reason why his run defense grade ranked tied for 163 among edge defenders in 2016.
    • Needs to develop more moves as a pass-rusher. Can win with speed off the edge, and with a devastating spin move, but lack of power shows up on bull rushes.
    • Comparison: Shane Ray

    An in-depth, play-by-play analysis of Harris' tape by Voch Lombardi:


    That footwork, speed off the edge, and spin move is very reminiscent of Cameron Wake in his prime. The things Harris needs to work on are all very coachable things, such as not "chasing the play" or over-pursuing, as he has a tendency to do. His core pass rushing traits are very, very difficult to find. Moreover, he is a very well-spoken, humble, intelligent individual who will be a great locker room presence.

    Ultimately, Miami just drafted Cameron Wake's understudy and LDE of the future. He has a lot of key traits that can't necessarily be taught by coaches, but his game is going to take some refining in order to reach its full potential. In a very talented defensive linemen draft class, Harris was among the elite, and very few analysts predicted he would fall outside of the top 20 picks. Miami obtained very good value in Harris with the 22nd pick, and considering how he reportedly blew team officials away at draft interviews, it's reasonable to assume that he can be coached up into an incredible player.

    Welcome to Miami, "Black Ice."
    [​IMG]

    Citations:
    https://www.profootballfocus.com/draft-pff-scouting-report-charles-harris-edge-missouri/
    http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/charles-harris?id=2558001
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2017
  2. Deus ex dolphin

    Deus ex dolphin Well-Known Member

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    A pass rush specialist for now? Playing on second and long or third down only? Yeah, I'm okay with that. Looks like he has a nice spin move.
     
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  3. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    Thanks for this
     
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  4. Destroyer

    Destroyer There for every play.

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    Much better than the other thread.
     
  5. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    If you like test scores or put your board together off of them you dont like this dude but if you like tape on pure edge rush this dudes got sub package situational rusher written all over him

    Everything about the run d is a work in progress...but we now have two legit sub package edge rushers that team must account for and can get us off the field...he makes andre branch a two down player out the gate even and gives us wake sub insurance in the event injury catches up with him
     
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  6. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    I agree, and I also think he can be coached up vs the run, he wouldn't have been my first choice at 22, but I think he'll be a good player, his tick off the ball is special, that is a trait that is great for others running stunts/blitzes, not to mention getting the T leaning back.

    Like you said his combine numbers aren't great, but he's a very good athlete with a high motor.
     
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  7. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    His jump off the line is insane. I have no doubt that he's strong, but like you said, he needs to be coached on how to make functional use of his power. If he learns a counter with that get-off (besides his patented spin) he should be a pretty dependable (if not downright dangerous) DE down the road. He seems to be pretty put together mentally, and doesn't seem content with being JAG in the NFL. I like the pick, can see the upside, and really hope it works out for us (and him). Grier made mention that there was gonna be room for what we could consider undersized ends in Burke's scheme.. well there you go. It'll be interesting to see how he gets used.
     
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  8. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    He improved his vertical which is usually a good indicator of lower body explosion which with pass rushers translates into the 10 yard split from 32 inches at the combine to 37 1/2 at his pro day
    The get off on tape in terms of the first 2 steps as a pure penetration player is sub 1.6...i was expecting him on tape to drop a 1.58 instead he was 1.65 but in that 10 yard box from qb to start point hes as quick as anyone and you got him at 22
    Be glad the teat scores werent better...thats plan a sub out the gate all day long and hes relatively new to the game so theres plenty of meat on the bone awareness wise
    I will be disappojnted if he doesnt give us 8 sacks as a rookie...the tools are absolutely there
    The spin move for his experience level is as good as ive ever seen...watch that tape of the florida game spin move the tackle had absolutely no chance now imagine that in the sub when he doesnt have to play it even vs the run based on the scoreboard or sticks and hes getting nothing but 1 on 1s because of suh and wake
     
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  9. Rouk

    Rouk Well-Known Member

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    The main problem with this pick is productivity next year. He might end up a good player down the road but at best we're looking at a 3rd down player next season. Imo the defense has bigger holes at LB that should of been addressed or even guard on oline. However, that's me looking at it from a production next year stand point. I get that some people want to draft for the future so ehh I dunno.
     
  10. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    He doesnt have long arms so whatever you do dont ask him to gain a lot of weight or any weight that scrapes the athlete cause his get off and his first 2 steps are his meal ticket...make it more about technique and hand placement and leverage play vs the run and with experience awareness...do not take away anything that effects that pass rush
    I want that kid hitting the qbs launch point in the sub before his back foot even hits...hes got the tools for it
     
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  11. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    With that spin move in time once he learns what tackles are teying to do which is beat him to the spot because of his get off and initial steps in a wide 9 hes gonna murder people with that spin move...tackles are gonna overset all over the place in the sub
    Like i said the expectation in the sub as a rookie even should be 8 sacks assuming we dont drop another 30th ranked run d
     
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  12. TheOne

    TheOne Active Member

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    I actually like this pick more than I probably should. I think it's unfair to compare him to Dion Jordan which I have seen people on other boards doing Harris doesn't seem like he is mentally unstable, but I also don't know the guy personally.
     
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  13. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Slightly left of center
    If he can get to the QB as fast as they got the card with his name in he'll be a Pro Bowler yr one. Seriously, They didn't waste a minute getting him. That is significant to me.
     
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  14. Puka-head

    Puka-head My2nd Fav team:___vs Jets Club Member

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    Slightly left of center
    I agree he doesn't look the strongest against the run. Hopefully they'll be addressing that tomorrow.

    The way to win the AFC east is to beat Marcia Bradys ***. Sack her 4 times a game, knock her down and make her cry on the bench. Looks like Harris can help do that :)
     
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  15. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The Grier presser is up. Everyone in the war room was cheering when they made the pick. Two teams wanted to move up to our spot for him. They really targeted him.
     
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  16. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Dion jordan basically relied completely on his length and was painfully slow off the ball...this isnt the same thing...this kid has legit edge win rush tools

    Dj also gained weight to play an every down de and scrapes the athlete...miami would be morons to scrape any of the athlete here in a wide 9 scheme to play the run...whatever weight doesnt effect that get off and initlal explosion off the ball he should play off and we assuming he does sack the qb at a high clip command his rights for the next 5 years dirt cheap by edge pass rusher pay rates
    His best trait is what gets you paid the most
     
  17. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    One question.
    In some publications he's listed as an OLB. Is there any chance of him playing OLB for us, or is he strictly a pass rusher?
     
  18. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    In disguises, maybe, but I would rather he rush the QB. A handful of times we dropped Wake in coverage or Phillips etc. and it worked, but only because we occasionally sprinkled it in IIRC.
     
  19. Pauly

    Pauly Season Ticket Holder

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    At least he has actual college production. On a quick view of his highlight reel he was beating blockers to make plays, something that just isn't in DJs college highlight reel.
     
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  20. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    The sam in base is all projection and nothing to do with why you drafted hin where you did...more likely you zone blitz and let him drop into a soft zone as hes a more fluid athlete than cam wake

    Bottom line is we want that cat hunting qbs and unless he sacks the qb at a high clip in the sub or finishes games when we have oeads late and teams have to pass we arent getting the bang for our buck...this is all about getting off the field on 3rd down or finishing teams when we have leads late...this is dwight freeney like return hopes...no one ever gave a damn about his run d play and he while faster was lighter in the pants than harris
     
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  21. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    By the way that was probably more about given the run d play getting very down bang for your buck as a 34 olb...but this dude is murderous in a 3 point stance...some guys are 2 point stance ideal fits as pass rusher tak mckineky and tj watt come to mind and their tape even screams it...harris in a 3 point or even 4 point whch cam loves in the wide 9 peering in at the ball is legit
     
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  22. Finster

    Finster Finsterious Finologist

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    That was like a jedi spin move vs Fla, he needs to be taught when and how often he should use it, and it could be devastating, and stacking a counter like you mentioned.
     
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  23. ExplosionsInDaSky

    ExplosionsInDaSky Well-Known Member

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    I know nothing about him, but I'm all in on the pick. I trust the organization.
     
  24. Gaijin

    Gaijin Member

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    I've watched some tape of him, I wasnt impressed. I'm not a negative guy but for what's worth I dont like him a lot. His run defense can get better, that's a positive. There are flashes of good abilities in that sense, he is explosive and he can learn how to set an edge with more coaching and an emphasis on discipline, keeping shoulders square and whatever the scheme demands (last season we were spilling some, he could be proficient learning that technique). I dont feel like his weight will be an issue since our DE alignments are usually in space, in a three point stance but similar to 3-4 OLBs. I just dont see the bigtime passrusher, both on the field and in the measurables. I get it a lot of people dont like using combine numbers but they are a fair assessment of athletic abilities and his athletic web is horrible. Guys with lower 3cones who had success in the league are, so far, Shane Ray who had a good second year but is a complementary rusher anyway and nobody else. He reminds me some of Oliver Vernon. His spin move is indeed exciting, natural and fluid and will have some success but it's a counter move, that means you have to be dangerous bending the edge to setup it. If his first step stays really impressive at the NFL level he has a shot because tackles will have to use vertical sets and will be open the aforementioned counter but if it's not is over.
     
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  25. danmarino

    danmarino Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is. Club Member

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    I agree 100%. The kid has the skill and ability to be good against the run. However, it seems the Dolphins fell in love with his love for the game and his preparation and determination. You can't teach those two things. And considering that Harris is relatively young (21 years old but turns 22 at some point this year. I couldn't find his birth month) he's really mature in that respect.

    I would have rather had Peppers, but Harris fills a big hole and is an excellent player.
     
  26. my 2 cents

    my 2 cents Well-Known Member

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    I check here at times but post at another site and I am pretty sure my opinion will lead to a fairly passionate response or two with a high degree of potential to head toward the gutter.....so this will be a hit an run post. but this is generally my response to the pick of Charles Harris..

    Years ago I had a heated discussion...it was myself on one side and about 400 "experts" on the other side regarding one Larry English.....they all loved English's get off and his hand slap.....my point was that yes they were great tools.....but you could defend him easily because he got his sacks and TFL's because Linemen took him on and if you took him on like an NFL set with a yard space his "get off" and his hands did not matter....he was easily neutralized......Larry English is now out of the League and finished his career with a grand total of 12 sacks over 5 years........can't seem to finds those guys to finish the discussion.............but then again I don't pay for premium.....

    I don't so much mind passing on specific guys like TJ Watt or Rueben Foster who are far better players IMO because they have their own questions...this kid has a ton of questions and no answers. I do not even mind passing on a low risk low reward plug and play guy like Ramcyz or Lamp.......it is just a surreal reach and evaluation by professionals.

    A caveat on Harris...my wife is a former Mizzou gymnast so I am forced to watch that abortion of a program every week......and I also played the game at a fairly high level.

    At 22, If you are going to reach reach for a guy with huge upside like Joe Mixon, Rueben Foster, Tim Williams or Gabriel Peppers that have big upside ..this guy is risk only..... not huge reward and not terribly talented. Miami got fooled his measurable and athleticism and there are 500 guys in prison that have his athleticism and did not go at 22.

    My eval is as follows: 3rd-4th round guy on his speed off the snap and three step north south game.......2nd round spin move.....the rest of his game...late 7 to free agent...cant stop the run, quits on plays, looks lost finding the ball most of the time, he is a "speed to a spot" (credit to former coach Mike Kruczek for that term) guy, no power to set and anchor the edge, cannot get through blocks down the line, he is a three step vertical close contact player, lacks hips to turn the corner, lacks STRENGTH to turn the corner....does not have the hips to project to anything more than a one trick pony off the ball.......likes close quarters in the pass rush where he can use his spin move and stop start speed.......fantastic spin move and stop start speed and will do well in the pre season...play him as even journeymen NFL guys play the pass rush with a bit of space and a redirect, and he is a free agent.

    Eclipses Lyman Smith and Phillip Merling as the worst Miami Dolphin Defensive Line choice in their history. Might be the worst first round Defensive Line pick as far as value since Jamaal Anderson to Atlanta at the top of the draft back in 07 or 08..

    He was unrated...UNRATED by Rivals coming out of high school..the joke was he was the first ZERO star to get a D1 offer.......

    you also will not see that this kid was one of the leaders of the "revolt" at Mizzou against President Wolfe, that undermined Gary Pinckney...so his character might not be so great as will be spun to us Joe's.....

    Look at his "sack" stats...he had 18 sacks in his career.......8...yes 8 were against Vanderbilt or Arkansas State......Vandy who plays that wide split gap outside in pass scheme and 4.5 against a freshman tackle at Arkansas State....whom I have no idea what conference they are in. He had 3 against a freshman tackle without Greg Pyke next to him.

    I wonder how much these guys really look at the situations because this guys had every possible situation on his side to perform...now to his credit he has beat up on the people he should beat up on....but look agains QUALITY players.....Florida (David Sharpe) owned him, Kentucky (Mason Wolf I believe) owned him, Arkansas (Skipper) owned him...and those guys are late round guys....and they tooled the kid.

    He is going to run well, he is going to jump high, he is going to say the right things and do what he needs to do and be coachable...he just disappears against guys his caliber or better and does not compete as a football player and his skill set does not translate.

    This pick is one of the more bizarre picks I have ever seen when you look even a tiny bit below the surface.

    By far hands down the worst pick of last nights first round and it is not even close.
     
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  27. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

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    You know, I don't know crap about Mizzou football, but if he were that bad of a player, you'd think at least one or two of the draft analysts would have mentioned it or said he was a reach.
     
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  28. Gaijin

    Gaijin Member

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    I'm not that far down the road to bustville but I think you have valid points. In fairness he was heralded by a lot of people so if our front office missed on him they werent at least the only ones praising him
     
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  29. my 2 cents

    my 2 cents Well-Known Member

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    He was not a bad player. He is a super pass rusher at the college level...he is just easily defended and does not translate IMO. He still has work to do even as a pass rusher because he wins with speed of the ball and his stop start sand spin move which he will not consistently win with in the NFL and he still needs to develop moves and better more violent hands and I am not sure how much he will develop there.

    He was drafted for his pass rush skills and I see those skills as easily neutralized. He brings nothing to the table in the run game and I do not think he has the skill set to develop there and I question his heart for the game given how he stands around when not rushing the passer...I get why you take him if you are desperate and you are an NFL team with one big time pass rusher that is 35-36 years old...you reach for a specific skill set...I just think that skill set will be neutered in week 1.

    The only debate that IMO comes close because it is eerily close as far as skill set and the significance of the disparity between value and where he actually went is the guy I go back to that I was right on...Larry English...

    Larry English at 9 was the only pick close to this bizarre as I see it..and 30 seconds after the pick I said as much and got toasted by what seemed like the entire universe including so called "experts"...at the end of the day it is only my and others opinion but I have been right and whole heck of a lot (as much or more than some "experts") including some that get paid, published or instant credibility on websites because they support the positive of the team they love.

    Some players have depth and some have breadth....at 22 if you take a guy with little breadth to his game he better have great depth...Harris doesn't..he is really really good at one specific part of rushing the passer, he needs to develop in other ways as a pass rusher and he is a negative value in the run game with questionable effort......

    Some players have specific situations they do well in and some players have specific situations they do well in AND have a skill set to develop and do more things...some never develop past the things they do well....example RT17 which I will not get into..but Brian Hardline is another. He was great at winning off the line vertically and on the sidelines...he had a skill set that never developed past that but was a functional guy.....Harris is a one and half trick pony pass rusher with serious translation questions and skill set issues IMO...I don't mind taking the guy...but at 22 it is absolutely IMHO bizarre.

    Still love the team and hope for the best and hope I am wrong...and there is a lot of draft left....
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
  30. finsfandan

    finsfandan Well-Known Member

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    Which makes you wonder what the hell the organization was thinking making him gain weight and become a full time DE. Most of his highlights were as an OLB.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  31. dolphin25

    dolphin25 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how English mentality was. I don't know if he was willing to put in the work it takes to be great. This kid at least is saying he does. I am hoping he does. I appreciated your voicing your thoughts.
     
  32. danmarino

    danmarino Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is. Club Member

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    And here it is!

    The post I've been waiting for...

    hahahaha
     
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  33. 'Phinomenal`Phanatic'

    'Phinomenal`Phanatic' Member

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    I'm confused by this pick. I see the need, but was he the BPA at our positions of need?

    I'm generally very positive though, so I hope the kid becomes a stud.
     
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  34. danmarino

    danmarino Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is. Club Member

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    Another thing a lot of you are missing about this guy, or so it seems, is that he's really good in coverage.
     
  35. Hoops

    Hoops Well-Known Member

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    Its possible be could be larry english im not gonna deny that...but again you are picking in the 20s you arent landing myles garrett there you can expect some risks or some work in progress with any de in a 43 you draft...
    Tj watt and tak mckinley were ideal 34 fits and sure enough they both got drafted by 34 teams
    That's just not us...
     
  36. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    Loved the video and I hope they fix that looking at the ball issue instead of getting off the blocker they mentioned he does do that a lot from what they stated. We already have players who can not stop the run so we don't need more of them! :)
     
  37. Redwine4all

    Redwine4all Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this. The anonymous yellers are out in force. Those who are accountable seem to think he was a pretty good pick.
     
  38. my 2 cents

    my 2 cents Well-Known Member

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    Bobby Beathard was one of the most esteemed GM's ever..........he also picked Ryan Leaf at number 2.....Charley Casserly is on ESPN as an expert and picked Desmond Howard at 4 and Heath Shuler at 3............

    Experts make mistakes....even accountable experts...here you have a short tenured GM working with a first time coach that have a huge hole by way of edge pressure and see a guy that they believe in....they ignore some red flags and focus on what the things that fit what they need which is edge pressure because your edge pressure guy is 35 and you have nothing in site to replace the edge pressure he brings. You ignore what he cannot do to focus on the flashes he does bring....it is somewhat of a panic pick IMO. I get the why you do it part.

    But to ignore red flags for the purposes of singing kumbaya on a forum site just is not honest.
    The guy loafs on run plays, gets neutralized when guys get their hands on him, and despite what someone intimated he is not good in coverage and is a short area player. I made a call today and a high school coach said this kids passion was basketball not football, and he was a 8<$$+ (insert female anatomy, and HIS words not mine). He was front and center protesting at Missouri, which can be viewed through a lot of different lenses but it does cause questions.

    You can look at his stats and he padded them against wide gap inside out teams, a freshman center and a guy playing on one leg...and his two 2 South Carolina sacks were coverage sacks ig you watch the film which someone pointed out to me.

    Me may be a Hall of Famer ...we don't know but having questions or concerns and stating them are legitimate. It is unfortunate that here that seems to always lead to a more hostile environment....which is why I generally for the last 4 years have not posted...but this is just such a reach IMHO only that I felt like posting my opinion since fans generally (almost by definition) seem to want to spin it all positive and sing kumbaya about all things Miami.

    I love the team but still do not view this pick as anywhere near solid or even that the risk reward-probability scenario warrants more than pick 120 or later on this guy.....

    Again just my opinion.
     
    djphinfan likes this.
  39. dirtylandry

    dirtylandry Well-Known Member

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    he was a booby?
     
    Gaijin and my 2 cents like this.
  40. invid

    invid Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    All of that is fine criticism, I think people take the most issue with the outright whiney posts. It's like a convention of teenage girls complaining they got an Acura cake instead of a Ferrari cake for their sweet sixteen after every draft pick. No one truly knows how these guys will pan out 2-3 years down the road.
     
    Gaijin, Puka-head and my 2 cents like this.

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