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Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Apr 30, 2013.
Sam Madison comes to mind. That guy was a very poor at tackling.
Well with our front 7 he hopefully shouldnt have to do much tackling. You also have to take into account the new rule changes this year. Those big bruising RB's cant drop their head and run people over like they used to do.
Nothing to pretend about, padre. I agree. Said so in my post. You can resist a poor tackler at CB. The problem is Davis Is more than a poor tackler. Read his body language. The kid doesn't like to get dirty in a game that's played in the dirt.
And Sam Madison was a poor tackler. He was not hesitant about sticking his nose in it.
Don't forget that the GOAT cover corner was also one of the worst tacklers ever too.
You talking about my neighbor
Deion couldn't tackle, but let's ground ourselves here. He didn't need to very often.
Sam Madison was hesitant about sticking his nose in it, so was T-Buck, and so is A. Cromartie. Even the great Deion Sanders looked like a sissy when trying to make a tackle.
There are plenty of really good cornerbacks who look like they are allergic to contact.
While I do prefer my cornerbacks to like to tackle and put in great effort, I am not going to cover my eyes and pretend everyone is Vontae Davis. There are plenty of Sean Smiths in the league who look like they would rather be selling flowers than making a tackle.
Willie Davis was a big play corner last season. He had more interceptions then all of Miami's corner's combined. He even had two in the redzone. He also had two plays where you could say they were game winning break ups.
The more I read about him, the more I am convinced he is worth a lower 3rd round pick.
Teams ran the ball when he played
Sam Madison comes to mind ....just saying
You beat me to it. Deion was also notorious poor in run support.
IMO, Madison looked like Night Train Lane compared to Will Davis when it comes to tackling.
Totally agree on all counts. Like some old coach said, if they don't bite as pups they're not likely to ever be biters. Something like that anyway.
Ireland passed on BW Webb 3x and Jordan Poyer 5x beginning with the pick of Davis. He sure as hell better have a better career than either one of them.
WADR, yes, that would be crazy to suggest.
That's good stuff, makes sense...
I really likes how he payed the deep ball in that game especially the flea flicker..his timing and measuring the ball in the air seems to be on point...
What I think I saw in the 2nd half was someone who doesn't forget about the previous play, if he gets beat he needs to recalibrate the brain and get pissed off.
IMO, that is way off base. Madison looked like tackling would ruin his nails when he played. Especially his first two seasons.
Whatever you say man. I think I saw every game Sam played for the Dolphins, and he never looked anywhere near as afraid to tackle as Davis did against La Tech. Obviously, YMMV.
I saw them too. Madison routinely have poor efforts on tackling during his first few seasons as a Dolphin.
Will Davis' ease of movement and acceleration are really pretty cool.
But he goes out there looking like Antonio Cromartie did back in San Diego when it comes to support tackling at times. He makes "business decisions". Sam Madison didn't make "business decisions" in my opinion. Sam just wasn't very good at fighting through blocks or physically tackling people, but to my recollection he gave himself to the idea of tackling. Just didn't always execute it well. Will Davis is a different animal in my opinion because you see on tape times when he really goes after it hard and you can tell he sees a Sportscenter opportunity in front of him. He will run his heart out and put his whole body into it if he sees that Sportscenter opportunity in front of him. Open field, quarterback scrambling, a screen pass where he can try and get the guy in the backfield, anything like that...he's suddenly Antoine Winfield.
Then other times he's completely of the mindset that he'll allow his teammates to take care of things. There's a play I don't feel like dialing up the time stamp at the moment, I think it was against San Jose State...a couple of Will's teammates have a ball carrier engaged but the ball carrier is managing to stay on his feet and their momentum is carrying them forward. Davis pulls up short of the pile and just starts walking, almost like he's ready to huddle. The play isn't over. He can see the ball still advancing right in front of him. He's got to be like within 5 yards. But there he is, he's walking around like he's waiting for the elevator.
Guarantee you never saw Sam Madison do THAT.
Will Davis' pure coverage skills and potential are really good. The movement skills, acceleration, closing speed, they're all there. He's too aggressive at times...but that is something I understand. What I tend not to understand is lack of aggression or commitment which is something I see from Jamar Taylor too often. I would rather dial an aggressive guy back than the other way around.
The real issue with him in coverage is related to the physicality thing. The sample size is low but there are some things I don't like in the way he handles physical coverage one on one down the field in situations where the receiver can try and climb the ladder for the football. Even in the plays that don't end up catches, I'm not necessarily liking what I see there. I would get worried about him. It doesn't have to be a Brandon Marshall or someone like that. You probably wouldn't find him deep trying to stand between Brandon Marshall and a deep completion on a jump ball, anyway. What if it's an A.J. Green or Mohamed Sanu? Josh Gordon? Julio Jones or Roddy White? Joe Morgan or Marques Colston? Mike Williams or Vincent Jackson? Torrey Smith? Reggie Wayne? Danario Alexander or Malcolm Floyd? Stephen Hill? Stevie Johnson? These guys can all do that to him if he doesn't work on it. I just get worried that he's going to find the NFL is a whole new ball game when it comes to physicality in coverage and receivers' ability to push off and climb the ladder on him. But there's a natural attitude and competitiveness to him and so if he has to dial up that physicality in coverage in order to prevent being on Sportscenter for all the wrong reasons, I think he could do it.
But at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Will Davis surpassed Jamar Taylor in camp. From what I know of Taylor I think he may frustrate the coaches a little bit trying to adjust to the jump in speed and athleticism at the next level, which will cause him to freeze and not be aggressive enough, whereas Davis will be frustrated a little more by the physicality of the NFL. But the Dolphins don't have the receivers on roster to really expose Davis' physicality shortcomings. So he's likely to look a little better in camp. His best chance of getting that exposed a little would be in preseason...and there's generally so much going on in preseason games with players shuffling in and out of the lineup, guys not used to one another, etc...I mean that exposing could happen or it could easily not. Also, I think Davis' inside-outside flexibility and his natural schematic preferences will make him a better candidate to play right away.
This is the kind of post that makes my *** go back and watch more of Jamar Taylor before I partake in the debate..
My review of him, from The Club.
I wonder if Will Davis could do well with a bit more strength training at this level. My perception is that players can improve their top gear speed a little bit as they get more muscled. I've heard strength trainers say that about players when they're asked about bulking a guy up and him losing speed. At the low end of the spectrum weight-wise, I've heard them say the increased muscle mass can and maybe should actually make them even faster. Will Davis definitely has kind of a skinny frame, skinny lower body.
Reason I mention this is because right now he's a guy that has more acceleration and quick-whip than he does top gear. I think that could be why I don't like him in one-on-one situations where a receiver can try and climb the ladder on him. He's struggling a little bit with the stride for stride in those situations, and therefore lacks the balance to do much with the football in the air. I think this might be a trait he has in common with Richard Marshall.
I don't know about college players because I am a PRO fan but like Ray J says "If I had one wish" I would wish for the reincarnation of just one Madison/Surtain. I used to love playing madden when they were the corners Press coverage all day, No worries!!
He looks good in the drills! Our coaching staff and Jeff Ireland must have really liked what they saw on tape, otherwise we wouldn't have traded back into the 3rd round to get him! He was projected to go somewhere between the 3rd - 5th round and it looks like he has some playmaking ability, which our secondary really needs!
No need to judge him yet as bad pick or reach, let's wait and see what he can do on the football field before you say something about him!
It seems like it was a panic move by Ireland after missing out on Boyce. I think Davis looks good in the combine film and he may do well at CB or S overall, but overall it was a pretty weak draft class.
Wow. Some people go to quite the unbelievable lengths to criticize.
I guess the Rams panicked when they traded up for Tavon Austin after they missed out on Deandre Hopkins.
Exqueeze me? Ireland said it himself. Or do you think referring to starting to see guys on their board disappearing and having to jump back in as a calm and not an oh **** moment? They thought players would fall. They didn't. They went into evasive maneuvers. Call this strategy if you wish but I'm pretty sure Ireland himself pretty much admitted, " Whoopsy." Caution: an ism taken together with homer can lead to blindness and in some cases, overdose.
Wow. Some people go to quite the unbelievable lengths to conservatize.
You do realize that Boyce was drafted after Davis.
I wasn't even concentrating on the actual name. Sorry. Didn't even strike me. I get riled up when people defend Ireland for that trade up and blindly so. Yes, I see the joke now. I feel crunchy.
He looked pretty good in the combine workouts.
In the game footage, I'm really concerned about his tackling n getting beat deep a few times. You can tell he takes a lot of plays off in the video as well. Regarding the tackling he makes no effort shedding off the WR blocks n he arms tackle, which won't work in the NFL.
I'm hoping that he plays much harder in mini n training camp.
He's no Dion Sanders or Sam Madison.
Play like a beast n earn your spot on the roster.
He had some injury seasons in the past, (stress fracture) and guess playing against inferior talent could be a concern but, thats not tangible to me, I can't hold that against him if I know I have a whole year of healthy reps to study..and they were good reps this past year.
I don't consider the int against Michigan state a good play..I do think he deserves some credit for the pick against the huskies, his anticipation was there, got his head around, and caught the ball, it wasn't great coverage that got the pick, but he read the play pretty well.
A healthy 2012, he balled, often looking for action that wasn't gonna come his way, by design, I think it's safe to evaluate the player based on the present maturation of his skillset, just taking his last game against Washington, he was dominant in the game.. his speed, were talking sub 4.4, some clocks at sub 4.3....has a highly competitive nature, likes to talk, likes to taunt his opponent, like the way he plays the run game, really measures and centers the opponent with solid fundamentals and explosiveness, recognizes quickly when to get off his receiver and come up with the stick, and he often puts some mustard on the end of it, all good aggressive signs, and obviously his movement in zone coverage
I'm not sure where your projecting him at this level, but from your analysis it seems your disappointed in the pick..
#4 corner in the draft with good value at #54 imo, we need that type of skillset, that complete style, also, he's Very confident borderline cocky on the field, but he seems like a tough dude, and does play like it..
I wasn't too fond of the pick, thought we could of got him staying out in the fourth but hey it's miami scheme n they felt like he was a good fit and so you don't take chances on getting your guy. He's got the speed and hip flexibility as well as great hands and instincts. Those are all very near impossible things to teach. As for the tackling, sure it's nice to have a good tackling corner but as long as he covers well I could care less, especially being a nickel corner like we drafted him to be as long as he clogs up a lane by standing there, the speed at our linebacker and safety positions will make up for corners not tackling well.
Yet you yourself call it panicking. So your doing the same damn thing but in the other direction. Just because he trades back up cause he made a wrong guess does not make it "panicking".
The best term to give it without sensationalizing it would be he was "correcting his original assumption". And considering that both trades washed out pretty near even on the trade chart ....nope not panicking. If he had paid more then he got to get back up...then I'd be right there on the 'panicking'.
His tackling isn't half as bad as it's been made out to be.
Excellent points. I think we put him in the slot and let him battle his way through.
His interest in tackling is at least as bad as it's made out to be.
I just don't see how people can say otherwise. Everything Ive seen is beyond atrocious.
If I was a dolphin reporter, it would be one of the first questions I would ask the player, I would immediately put him on notice that we know and were watching, and if it continues, you will be called out, this isn't college anymore where your trying to protect yourself or have a sense of entitlement, it's the progame and you better be willing to stick your nose in there and hit someone..
I'm hoping our GM raised these concerns and there were reasons why he pu$$ied out on certain plays that led us to believe they will not continue.
I can agree with that but only half way. There is certainly desperation in the move. Surely we can agree to that. I can agree that it was correcting a mistake rather than panick but the move, without sensationalizing it, was rash.
Do you really believe Davis was worth what was given in trade? And please, forget the trade chart. IT hasn't been applicable since the days of Jimmy Johnson and the way we came up and the Patriots went down saids it all. Teams will sell cheap or buy high if its in their best interest. They are not looking at a chart calculating points lost or gained. They are looking at their board and the player they want or can live without.
The #4 corner in the draft seems to imply that you think he was better than either Xavier Rhodes, Dee Milliner, D.J. Hayden or Desmond Trufant.
I do not share that opinion. I also like Darius Slay better. And Johnthan Banks. Potentially, B.W. Webb and Robert Alford although Alford in particular is a project.
Like Alen, I think Jamar Taylor was a mid-rounds prospect.
my bad, forgot about Rhodes, top 5.
I found out that when Boise had their bye week last year,everyone went home except two players, Taylor being one of them, he said he doesn't like bye weeks, needs to keep grinding when you know there is a game to be played..I'm picking up thru a lot of stuff that the kid has a good work ethic.
I agree. There is definitely some standing around that goes one and a lack of working hard to get off blocks, but if you base your opinion off him on some of the comments here, you would think he couldn't tackle at all. What's funny is that these comments come from some of the very same folks who thought Earl Thomas was a good tackler coming out of Texas. Thomas did not like coming up in run support in Texas and was not a good form tackler, but he would go for the big hit in the open field. In the NFL, he's one of the worst run defense safeties in the league.
Will Davis can tackle. He's just not nearly as aggressive in run support as he is in pass coverage. He's a lot like Sam Madison was as a tackler, IMO.
Here's the San Jose State game:
1. David Fales, San Jose State's quarterback, is a legitimate 1st round quarterback for the 2014 NFL draft. In fact, he may be the 2nd best guy on the board after Louisville's Teddy Bridgewater.
2. At about 1:38 in the clip, there is a play that illustrates what CK is talking about when he mentions getting out physicaled for the ball when he has to climb the ladder with the receiver. The actual play was out of the film frame until the play was made, but it looks like he bit on a double move (his aggressiveness in coverage), and while he recovered, he couldn't recover and battle the other receiver from a physical standpoint for the ball.
3. At about 2:56, there is a heck of a throw that Fales makes into the endzone, but it looks to me like the receiver trapped the ball. I don't know if this was ruled a TD or not. This was more of a good throw than bad coverage.
4. Will Davis plays a lot of off man and quarters coverage, which is the likely coverages Miami will use most.