will hartline and bess get to 1000 yards this year???

The same ones needed for success in the red zone, only less of them.

 

Sorry, I edited my post, while you were typing your response, with this:

 

I agree in the sense that it is about the entire team, not just one position. A QB who can extend plays helps, an OL that can wall off the pass rush, a run game that can create play action opportunities, a TE who can win down the middle consistently, a WR who can go fade/slant vs press man, all of that is important.

I pick on the WRs b/c collectively, they aren't doing much more than the bare minimum. They don't stretch the field, create mismatches, draw doubles, dictate coverage, make plays after the catch, or block well on the edge, just to name a few. Bess and Hartline are good at what they do but they don't do very much. WR screens, smoke routes, reverses, post patterns, deep outs/comebacks, digs/square ins, should be staples of a passing attack when you have a talented/well rounded group of receivers. But Sherman is working with a short stack, so is Tannehill. We run some smash, 4 verticals, a lot of curls and option routes, an occasional shot down field (more to get some breathing space than to attack), RB screen, but we're very predictable in terms of what we can call, especially when the run game isn't working well and play action aint an option.

 

It's impressive considering they could do this with a rookie QB. Who was the last rookie QB to have (2) 1,000 yard receivers in one season? So does the credit go to Tannehill or the Dolphin receivers? I think it's a bit of both, and I also think that we undervalue both Hartline and Bess. Neither one of them is a bona fide number 1 go to guy but I think both are worthy #2 options in the NFL on a lot of teams. We need a guy with speed to pair with Bess and Hartline in a bad way. Our number 3 receiver has been totally non-existant no matter who it's been and that is what is holding us back in the passing game. I also think it's the cause of about half of Tannehills interceptions. At the tight end position Fasano is a nice option but that position needs an upgrade as well.
Defenses have keyed in on Hartline and Bess and yet they have still managed to put up some decent numbers this season. Thats an impressive thing and one worth being proud of in my opinion.

Speaking of 1,000 yard milestones, Reggie Bush could still go on a big tear to end the season the way he did last year. For all the complaining people have done about our offense how would you feel seeing (2) thousand yard receivers, and a thousand yard rusher? When was the last time we had that?

Regardless of stats and milestones (which can be misleading) I truly feel that we need to add some speed at the skill positions on offense this offseason.

 

I suspect all that has a whole lot more to do with the rookie QB who's running the offense than with them.

Do you realize the average rookie QB has a QB rating of 72, and only 19% of them (5 out of 27) since 2004 have done significantly better?

 

whats his rating now doc?

 

72.9

 

Among the strangest things you'll see in the NFL is the fact that Brandon Weeden has more rushing yards and has rushed for more 1st downs than Ryan Tannehill. Now that's just ****ing weird.

 

What does "significantly better" mean...80+?

Out of the 22 who weren't significantly better how many have turned out to be franchise type QBs? Eli qualifies...

 

At least one standard deviation above the mean, or a QB rating of at least 86.

I would say there are only 4 of the entire sample of 27 who have become franchise QBs: Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Ben Roethlisberger, and Eli Manning.

Of them, Flacco (QB rating = 80) and Eli Manning (QB rating = 55) did not play significantly better than the average rookie QB. In fact Manning played significantly worse than average.

RGIII and Russell Wilson are the other two who have played significantly better than average, but it's too early to call them bona fide franchise QBs at this point IMO.

 

From what I'm hearing from folks, there is a conscious effort to constrict his skillset to the pocket..not sure how you do that in the business of calling plays and winning games, but I guess there is a process that coaches have to accomplish it..

I like it better when he drops his balls..

 

I was thinking about this the other day, and I came to the conclusion that they're making the push to get him comfortable in an NFL pocket and to enhance his accuracy in the middle of the field. Quite frankly, I believe the coaching staff and front office knew before the season's first snap that this team wasn't built to the level of a contender, even though they'll never admit as much for obvious reasons. So I think they're comfortable in making certain small sacrifices for long term benefit while still trying to win games as best they can.

 

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that unless you hit on someone that is more special than advertised, you're not going to get a significant immediate improvement by just adding ONE player.

The best chance you have of getting that kind of improvement obviously would be one of the big named free agents, be it Greg Jennings, Dwayne Bowe or Mike Wallace. But there's reason to believe 1) The Dolphins don't really have the money to chase one of those guys because so much of their cap room will be tied up in re-signing their own players, 2) The Dolphins may not be inclined to chase a big money receiver even if they did have the room for it, and 3) Those guys may be flat overrated when you consider Jennings' age and injury issues, Bowe's attitude, and Mike Wallace's being so one dimensional.

So absent a knockout move (and if you sign any of the above three then you had better be convinced it's a knockout move) I think the only way you're really going to move the needle on the wide receivers unit is by changing the makeup of the unit itself to insert more athleticism and play making ability. I don't think putting Brian Hartline and Davone Bess on the field at the same time gives you that. But if you put a couple of young explosive players out on the field in addition to one of those guys and in addition to a ground game which you hope will finish out the year successfully and then continue into next year, then you may actually move the needle on the touchdown capabilities of this offense.

 

preach.

 

As far as Hartline and Bess joining the 1000 yard club, IMO is is a near shoo-in. Sadly I think it will be because we will be throwing a great deal in our games against the Patriots, and it won't be because it was part of the game plan.

 

Then they should get him a good tight end.

 

Talking about young athletic receivers, a couple of players like Emanuel Sanders and Antonio Brown would fit the bill, it seems to me.

 

That fact alone doesn't, but if the guy does it efficiently, e.g., shooting at or near 50%, it's a pretty good indication that he is a good player. The same is true of Hartline and Bess. They are both catching 65+% of the passes thrown to them and are collectively averaging 9.06 ypa and 13.8 ypc. Those are pretty solid numbers, especially with a rookie QB throwing to them. For comparison's sake, the combo of Hakeem Nicks and Victor Cruz are catching 59% of the passes thrown to them, with a ypa of 7.5 and a ypc of 12.7. The combo of Wes Welker and Brandon Lloyd is catching 65% of the passes thrown to them, but is only averaging 7.67 ypa and 11.7 ypc. Needless to say, both the Pats and Giants have better QBs throwing to those WRs than the Dolphins have throwing to Bess and Hartline. And the lack of other receiving threats on the Dolphins doesn't enhance those numbers -- it diminishes them. If the Dolphins are forcing it in to Bess and Hartline because they have no other valid receiving threats you'd expect those completion percentage, ypa and ypc numbers to be lower, not higher.

 

Really if you take all of this kind of available objective data and put it together, you start to realize that the idea that Tannehill has "struggled" because his receivers are inadequate is nothing more than a fantasy.

It's something that's been proposed because it makes sense theoretically, but the certainty with which it's been believed to be true nowhere near reflects the objective reality of it.

 

I don't think Tannehill's "struggles" have had much, if anything, to do with any inadequacy of his receivers. His struggles have been typical rookie QB struggles. He's not taking an unusual number of coverage sacks, nor is he throwing an unusual number of passes away. His WRs catch a high percentage fo the passes he throws to them. Tannehill's INts are a little high, but a number of them have been passes tipped at the line of just plain bad decisions that had nothing to do with the WRs. And the Wrs aren't dropping a high percentage of passes thrown to them.

 

I still think it would be a good thing, more than anything else this franchise needs even minor stars after 4 yrs of "drone ball".

 

It would be a good thing. Beating the Pats at least once would be even better.

 

Last time this happened was 1991 with Mark Duper and Mark Clayton. Both had 70 receptions, Clayton had 1053 yards and Duper had 1083 yards. Clayton did catch 12 touchdowns which might be more than the Dolphins throw this year.

Looking at Pro Football reference to get this information is interesting. So many seasons without a 1,000 yard receiver. When one player has over 1,000 yards, the second player generally has less than 700 yards.

 

Deep down inside I would be happy for both of them. But I would be pissed if Ireland thinks thats a reason to not get a true #1 WR/endzone threat.

 

In 1999 Tony Martin went for 1000+ and Gadsgen went for 800+. That's as close as it's been since the days of Clayton/Duper, who last went for 1000+ each back in 1991.

While it's a special achievement and I commend both Hartline and Bess, I can't help but feel that this is more a result of today's pass happy NFL than something either of them have really done to earn it.

 

I don't know if we need 2 guys at WR. I think we need 1 guy whose good enough to draw double teams at times......and isn't a diva if we stay as a spread it around offense. I don't like diva WR's that demand the ball and you have to feed (ie: force balls). Instead of that 2nd WR I would really like to see a pass catching TE.

Nobody here can tell me that we wouldn't have a solid pass catching corps if we could find 1 WR better then what we have......and find that seam busting TE.

The other addition I would make is to find a replacement for Thomas (too concussion prone) to be that in between the tackles battering ram.

 

I think it is meaningful if they both reach a 1000 yards. I would guess that if I had bet the board that they each get 1000 before the season, I would have made a mint. I rate those two higher than many here. IMO Hartline is a good #2 and Bess is a very good #3. I think Wallace would be an ideal player to add to that group and would round out our corp nicely. I also like Matthews development potential and think he's a nice piece as a #4. I would still add another WR in the draft if the opportunity arose.

 

I do think today's NFL rules have helped make it possible, however I also do not think that undercuts their accomplishments. It is not like NFL defenses just let Hartline and Bess catch balls.

While I do agree that I am not a fan of both of them in a two wide receiver set, I do disagree with the idea of having no room for both of them. Hartline is a pretty good outside receiver and does well in multiple wide receiver sets. Bess is a great slot receiver. Unless Thigpen can step up as a slot guy, I see no reason to give up both of them.

 

WR's are like cars with "options" (GPS, sunroof, etc..)

These options are their "route tree".

Victor Cruz' / Jordy Nelson' production from last year suggests that they are clear cut #1's. They are not. Their route tree is very limited.

Same with Bess and Hartline. Bess has the qualifications / "options" of a slot guy. Hartline, that of a #2 / support player. Neither is a #1.

Brandon Marshall (since he was brought up) has it ALL. He can run every route, play physically, run after the catch, and dominate man to man coverage. A true #1.

Of the soon to be available group..only Dwyane Bowe has the complete qualifications of a #1, while Jennings and Wallace can be very good complimentary pieces.