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With Marshall on the Dolphins, why trade Ted Ginn?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by padre31, Apr 14, 2010.

  1. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    If the Dolphins trade Ginn for a 5th then the league already knows he is a bust.

    With Marshall, Bess and Hartline above him on the depth chart, Camarillo doesn't convert so many 3rd downs from the sidelines or the inactive list.
     
  2. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Trade teddy? Are you guys crazy? Marshall wide left. Bess slot left. Ginn slot right. Hartline wide right. Go ahead. Stack the box.
     
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  3. bluehaze

    bluehaze New Member

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    Your dreaming LOL Its been a fun discussion though, have to hit the sack starting a new job in the morning.

    Cheers man!
     
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  4. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Pretty much, to me a late round pick is little different from a UDFA, it comes down to scouting and evaluations to make the difference imho.


    I do as well, the thing is, Brian Hartline showed a lot of big play ability this past season, I'd expect more Marshall and Hartline with Ginn coming in to stretch the defense vertically.
     
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  5. OCDolfan

    OCDolfan a.k.a. LostInPatsLand Club Member

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    If we can involve Ginn in a trade for a 4 to 6th round pick, or better yet, couple Ginn with our first round pick to move down and acquire more early round picks (say a lower 1, a two, and a five), we should strongly consider doing this. No other receiver (aside from Marshall) would allow for us to do this, and Ginn isn't a likely starter either at this point.

    Edit: Aside from the trade value, I'd rather play Marshall, Hartline, Bess, and Camarillo.

    Edit 2: Big difference between a mid to late round pick and UDFA. Players in free agency get to chose where they want to go, for instance.

    Edit 3: How come Ginn is considered a deep threat? Because of his speed? True, but his ability is limited since he can't consistently beat press coverage.

    I'd be shocked if Ginn is playing for us this year.
     
  6. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    I watched him get open deep plenty last season, and then watched Henne check down. Was it because he didn't trust Ginn or didn't want to take chances throwing downfield, I don't know. Also, since you seem to be deep inside the FO, since you claim Ginn's time is at an end, maybe you could get us some juicy inside info...

    I'm not a Ginn superfan, I just find the arguments that the Ginn haters use to be extremely silly.
     
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  7. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Too cheap, a high 4th, maybe inside pick 100.


    A great offense, for about 20yds or so.


    Not from a talent point of view, a UDFA can easily be as physically talented as a 6th rd pick.


    Because...he catches long passes perhaps?

    I wouldn't, in fact the more I think about the more Greg C may be on the bubble.
     
  8. OCDolfan

    OCDolfan a.k.a. LostInPatsLand Club Member

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    Wrong. I consistently saw Hartline get great separation last year, and Brandon Marshall wasn't playing for us then.



    It doesn't matter if the talent level is worse, the same, or better. A 6th round pick is different than a UDFA because more teams perceive him to be more talented. That's why he ends up getting drafted. And if we really want someone, and think he's going to be drafted mid to late, we need to have draft picks.

    Not consistently enough to consider him a true long threat.


    That's right. We're going to reward unrealized potential and punish someone who produces. Another brilliant idea.
     
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  9. Wildcat23

    Wildcat23 Here kitty kitty

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    Sorry, but while Cam is good, Hartline and Bess can do pretty much what he does, yet none of those receivers can bring fear with the deep ball. Even when gin is inconsistent the threat is still there and we saw it many times last season. So basically to me, Its between hartline bess and cam...cam just seems like the odd man out.
     
  10. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Not on Cb's like Revis.



    Not in giveaway trades, and if one recalls they target players they feel are priority UDFA's such as DBess, they called him before the draft was over, under your theory, that should not have happened.


    How many deep passes do you think are thrown in a game? 5, maybe? The rest of the game the Wr has to run off the Safety help over the top to create opportunities underneath, Brian Hartline is not going to open up those opportunities.




    Indeed, low ceilings are the major cause.
     
  11. smahtaz

    smahtaz Pimpin Ain't Easy

    Crazy stuff all of a sudden.

    It may work out that a guy with ZERO drops and 50 catches in the previous year ends up being the odd man out.
     
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  12. OCDolfan

    OCDolfan a.k.a. LostInPatsLand Club Member

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    Doesn't matter now since CB's like Revis are going to be occupied with Marshall. Hartline will make the most of these opportunities, while it didn't appear to matter much with Ginn last year.



    All I said was that if they targeted a player and believe he'll be picked before the end of draft, they need to have draft picks. It's that simple. Furthermore, having more picks gives flexibility to a team trying to stock up on a particular position or two. After the draft, UDFA would augment this process and ideally not substitute for it.
     
  13. DHPVW

    DHPVW DuB addict

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    I think it's just crazy that all of the sudden Ginn is a decent receiver :lol:

    He only catches the deep ball because that's all he can do. Every once in a while he will sneak behind a safety, mostly when there has been blown coverage. He is not even close to being a reliable receiver, and is a one trick pony. Bess, Cam & Turner have far more upside then Ginn. He only gets a decent return if he can make the first man miss and hauls *** to the sideline. His return average isn't too impressive to me.

    How would we justify cutting Cam or Turner? Turner is a BIG body to throw to, him and Marshall could be very wicked. Even if Turner doesn't show brilliance this year, he is a work in progress. Hell, Ginn has had more than enough time to polish his skills. Problem is it comes down to his heart/guts. He has no balls, hence his inconsistency and unwillingness to go over the middle or really fight for the ball or extra yardage after the catch.

    GINN IS A BUST!!! Everyone will see, he won't do ish this season either.

    Let me ask this, if Ginn finishes the upcoming season with mediocre #'s again let say 50rec, 600yrds and 3rec td's is everyone gonna think he has done enough?
     
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  14. OCDolfan

    OCDolfan a.k.a. LostInPatsLand Club Member

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    If you can get the same pick for Cam that you can for Ginn, go for it.
     
  15. OCDolfan

    OCDolfan a.k.a. LostInPatsLand Club Member

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    I guess my point is that Ginn's unrealized potential is really a facade for a very low ceiling.
     
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  16. mustang20241

    mustang20241 New Member

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    I'm not sure why so much animosity towards keeping Ginn on the roster. I was happy we didn't trade him. Half way through his rookie season he was supposed to be the #1, and rightfully so because he was the #9 pick. He has not lived up to that potential which does make him a bust, but he is still a football player who can make the big play. He needs to work on consistency and work ethic. He's had 4+ different QB's and had an off couple of games last season in which he saw way less snaps and that helped to decrease production as well.

    Going to a couple of the games it was easy to see that a corner would normally be pressed on Ginn (usually the #1) and a safety would be 20 yards over the top on Ginn's side. And all this time on TV I'm thinking just run some PA and bomb it.. oh wait theres a guy 50 yards downfield already.

    With Marshall drawing the double teams it will open up the entire offense. People always say Ginn gets too many excuses and everyone who supports him keeps coming up with reasons to keep him. Though no one receiver on this team possesses the speed and KR/PR ability that he has. The speed alone can stretch an entire football field. Ginn is going to burn most CB's in this league and has shown better promise at beating the press. He needs to show more heart and work on focusing on the ball. He has never had a drop issue in his football career and I feel people point to this as a scapegoat for a 7-9 season. He will fix that.

    What ever 5th-6th round pick we could get for him probably wouldn't produce very much for atleast a couple years at best. The value he has to this team is much more valuable than a late draft pick. I love Cam and I'm sure everyon finfan does but the fact is he may be the odd man out. Hell maybe its Pat Turner who gets put on the practice squad.
     
  17. TheMageGandalf

    TheMageGandalf Senior Member

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    If he comes up with 50 rec and 600 yards that helped get some First downs then you need to ask yourself this question...

    Would you rather try blindly for a 6th rounder that may not even get past training camp...or would you want 50 rec for 600 yards?

    I would be for trading him for a 5th or 6th if the guy we see on the board is someone we have scouted for awhile now and we know for SURE (which you can never be sure) that the dude will contribute AT LEAST that much.

    Because if the guy your bringing in is just going to warm the bench or not even be on the squad....or just be a REAL bust ala Pat White (yeah he's a real bust who mark my words wont contribute jack at the QB position)...then we are better off keeping Ginn and trying to get some decent kick returns or some long TD bombs out of him if we can. Hell we've already wasted years on this guy we might as well see if bringing in a true #1 will make any difference.

    ....and all of this is comming from one of his biggest detractors on here as I think the dude is a p**** that is afraid to get hit and should've gone into another sport that suits his running blindly straight ahead style better....like Olympic sprints or something.
     
  18. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You Club Member

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    Like our front office will turn a 6th round pick into something decent. I'm sorry, but we're overvaluing our late round picks here... I think Ginn brings more to the table than some 6th rounder that probably won't get far in Miami.
     
  19. DHPVW

    DHPVW DuB addict

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    I agree completely. I'm all for keeping him around, on the terms that we understand he is a 3rd or 4th option at receiver. I agree there is some upside in his return game, but he just can't get it done as a receiver.

    And as far as me being happy with another mediocre #'s year for Ginn, no it wouldn't make me feel he has done enough. I would more or less feel that we probably held back another one of our receivers yet another year. Bottom line, I have always been a Ginn lover. But I have finally seen the light, and Ginn is no where to be found. It was time I stopped talking about what he could do and see what he hasn't done :cry:
     
  20. RickyNeverInhaled

    RickyNeverInhaled Well-Known Member

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    Ginn is gonna be one hell of a #2 WR. the pressure is off of his back now and there will be less talented db's covering him. he's gonna be wide open more often and he's got a Qb that can get the ball to him.
     
  21. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Unless Ginn is packaged in some deal for a lot of picks or something trading him for a late round pick is just stupid. Being disappointed with him because he isn't worth a top ten pick is different than placing his value in the 6th round range, thats just fans that don't know what they are talking about. The guy is a quality return man and still has potential as a wideout. If we had drafted Ginn later in the draft people wouldn't be crying about his production, he is a decent player just not worth the draft pick we spent on him. Ditching him out of anger for a late round pick is silly, he still has value to this team. I would love to see what he can do opposite of Marshall. If he can give us 5-7 Tds from returns/Wr/wildcat or reverses then he's worth holding onto above a 5-6th round pick. If someone offers up a 3rd rounder I'd do it because this is a deep draft but anything lower than that is just dumb.
     
  22. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    Getting Brandon Marshall doesn't fix Ginn's multiple problems. Ginn still drops balls. He still shys from contact and runs out of bounds. Ginn still drops balls. He still lacks quickness and only has straight line speed. Ginn still drops balls. Ginn isn't very physical. Ginn still drops balls. Ginn won't dive or fight hard for the ball. Ginn still drops balls.

    Keeping him is such a horrible idea. I can see it now. It's an important game The Beast is drawing a double team, Ginn breaks away with his breath taking speed, Henne lets fly, the balls sails into the end zone into Ginn's hands and....he drops it.

    The fact is that he's a scaredy cat wuss boy who runs out of bounds when someone looks at him funny. The fact he won't fight for the ball or make a diving catch for it is a huge drawback. The fact that a lot of times he either doesn't know where the first down marker is or won't fight for the first down is bad enough. But he can't catch!

    We have an awesome weapon in Brandon Marshall. We have great secondary receivers in Hartline, Bess and Camarillo. We have great options in Ronnie Brown and Patrick Cobbs who are great pass catching RB's. And Ronnie and Cobbs are both very dangerous with the ball in their hands.

    We have weapons we can trust! Ginn's only value is as a kick returner. I'm willing to trade that ability away for more picks in this draft. Don't even need to think twice on it.
     
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  23. normaldude

    normaldude Active Member

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  24. 2k5

    2k5 I miss Ted Ginn Jr.

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  25. pennphinfan

    pennphinfan Stelin Canez Arcade Scorz

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    I've been a Ted Ginn supporter for a while now (obviously). I think he should get his shot as a #2/#3 receiver for 1 year, and see what he can do. I'll admit there are few to no excuses to explain his play away anymore. He's got 3 years, he has a decent enough quarterback, he's had time to adjust and learn. The only possible excuse he could have now is that he isn't a 'true' #1 receiver, which many people have said all along. So if he isn't a true #1, why not give him a shot as a #2? Look at Houshmanzadeh, excellent as a #2, not very good at all as the teams sole receiver. Ginn could very well be the same type of player.

    If we trade him, we'll get a 5th or 6th at best, and get some backup guard that probably won't ever play. While he may have cost us games in the past, he has also won some with his returns. If his WR play isn't any good this year, demote him to just KR/PR for this season, and cut him at the end of the season. Or, honestly how much lower could his value get? We could still get a 6th or 7th next year if he has a mediocre season, and could get the same type of project player that we'd get this year anyway.
     
  26. OCDolfan

    OCDolfan a.k.a. LostInPatsLand Club Member

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    Another problem is I'm not sure he'll take getting a demotion well at all. Maybe his aversion to adversity is part of the reason why he didn't play as well last year as in previous years.

    The good news for people who stubbornly want to keep him is that we may have no choice. From what I've read elsewhere, it appears no one else wants him or that they'll wait until we cut him to scoop him up.
     
  27. pennphinfan

    pennphinfan Stelin Canez Arcade Scorz

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    surely a possibility. but I wouldn't defend him on that. If your play is lacking, and your boss tells you to scale it back, you do it. You make the best of what you're given, and stop complaining about it if it's your fault or just on you that you're in that position. These guys get paid so much money, it's hard to hear them complain about their jobs.

    That said, thus far Ginn hasn't ever to my knowledge publicly bi***ed about getting lessened playing time or anything like that, so I won't accuse him of that yet. As far as right now goes, I'm still behind ya, Teddie.
     
  28. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    :lol: You're one funny apologist. Again, stats prove he isn't, as evidenced by his mediocre KR average. Keep believing he's a great KR though because he was for one game, and one game only before going back to being Ted Ginn.
     
  29. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    There's a lot of Ginn superfans on this site for whatever reason. It's disgusting really. Want to keep Ginn on the roster? That's one thing, even though he doesn't deserve a roster spot. But wanting him to get more snaps than Hartline and Bess is absolutely ridiculous in every way.

    What's silly really? The guy isn't worth a damn. Awful WR, average KR. Newsflash, Ted Ginn's can be drafted late in the draft, every year. Speedy return specialists who aren't worth a damn as a WR aren't hard to find, at all.
     
  30. Clipse

    Clipse mediocrity sucks

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    Sorry but logic isn't allowed on these forums. Facing the facts and not being a Ginn apologist isn't allowed either.
     
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  31. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Exactly, to move him for anything but a Starter quality player, or a 3rd or higher, makes no sense, they really have to see what effect BMarsh will have on defenses and see how Ginn fits into that mix before they think about moving him in the first place.

    I think it would hi-llarious if one of the bloggers for the Dolphins asked HC Sparano about trading Ted Ginn for a 6th rd pick because we got Brandon Marshall, toss in some of the logic that is being used as well...:D
     
  32. FinFan316

    FinFan316 Banned

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    I''ve been critical of Ginn as well. But, this is a critical year for us. It might be that we have to score 30 plus a game because we didn't fix the problems at NT or OLB or S. I want us to have every advantage imaginable.

    I don't think Ginn is the #2 guy. Thats Hartline. Bess is the slot guy. What Ginn does is give you, depending on the defensive personnel, is create mismatches in the deep middle (like he beat Revis deep last year). Hes not the first or second option, but he will get deep and the third CB or S is not going to be able to cover him. Camarillo, Turner, a "sixth rounder" don't create that.
     
  33. FinFan316

    FinFan316 Banned

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    Ginn is not suddenly the no.2 WR. Hes not the #3, either. Hes your deep threat in a 4 WR set.

    I think, (and IMO, this is a pretty easy decision for the coaches)
    BM
    BH
    DB (slot)
    TG (4 WR set)
    GC if we keep him...
    Turner, will have to prove that he can be kept over Camarillo. If not, he'll be inactive again.
     
  34. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Amongst other things, BM can fill the role of big possession type of WR very nicely.
     
  35. FinFan316

    FinFan316 Banned

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    He didn't drop the ball vs the Jets in the endzone....He beat Revis. Thats the best CB in the NFL in a huge rivalry game on a huge stage.

    Dont let your personal antipathy for Ginn cloud your judgment about his ability. Hes not a #1 guy. Or #2. But he has a role on this football team.
     
  36. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    On a ticky tack call by a senile old ref who should be a Wal Mart greeter rather than imitating a referee...Ron Winter...you POS.
     
  37. resnor

    resnor Derp Sherpa

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    Cause that's the only stat that matters. He's never lost a fumble. His career ypc is 13. He's gotten a 50+ yard td every year of his career. He's a threat to take kIcks to the house. He hasn't always been a drop machine lke last year. IF he fixes that this year, he can be a very dangeous weapon for us.
     
  38. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    IMO, this aspect of Ginn is so overblown. The dude is 5'11 and looks about 175 soaking wet. He does what other WRs his size used to do. Guys like Cliff Branch and James Jett. He gets hit plenty and he gets tackled and survives plenty. But when at the sidelines where he either could lower his shoulder and try to take it to the defender, or step out of bounds he does the latter. He knows he isn't a big physical player and if he played like one he would not survive. Would you prefer he tried to imitate Larry Csonka and seek out contact and try to take it to the tackler? They'd be carting him off the first game he did that like Pat White was against the Steelers.
    Harry Callahan used to say: "A man has got to know his limitations".
     
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  39. bbqpitlover

    bbqpitlover Well-Known Member

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    I don't quite understand why you would want to give him another chance at becoming something he is not. Honestly do you trust Ginn more than you trust Bess or Hartline, both those guys are way better than Ginn. Waiting for Ginn to develop into an NFL wide receiver is like Linus standing in the Pumpkin Patch waiting for the great Pumpkin to arrive. If the phins are to put the best players on the field how could you justify putting a guy out there who is afraid of contact ? Every year I hear Ginn is still learning to run routes, 3 years later and look how well he has progressed, or regressed. It's time to end the Cameron nightmare once and for all. Bye bye Ginn.
     
  40. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Harper was never the Boys KR/PR. The used Kelvin Martin and later Kevin Williams in those days. Harper was also big, 6'3 and 210, and physical. Things that Ginn is not.

    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarpAl00.htm
     

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