Yahoo.com: Dolphins pass D must minimize big plays

Dobbins and Clemons starting, improved athleticism throughout the linebacker core, confident talented 2nd year corners, more pass rush reps for Wake, should help.

Wilson and crowder on pass defense with wake on the bench was a baaaad recipe.

If we would have allowed just 3-5 less big plays last year we would have most likely been a playoff team. It made that much of a difference.

"FinsAreLife wrote:

If we would have allowed just 3-5 less big plays last year we would have most likely been a playoff team. It made that much of a difference.

Right on target there, and Nolan's D will correct that, plus some, and our offense is improved with Marshall, Ronnie back and the bigger, stronger, nastier OL. We will be in the playoffs and could go deep there. I know I'm being a Homer here, but we were oh so close last year on offense without the improvements, and like you said 3-5 plays away from a playoff season. We'll make up those 3-5 plays and then some I believe.

Faster linebackers this year should help.

"djphinfan wrote:

Dobbins and Clemons starting, improved athleticism throughout the linebacker core, confident talented 2nd year corners, more pass rush reps for Wake, should help.

Wilson and crowder on pass defense with wake on the bench was a baaaad recipe.

I'm not so sure Clemons and Dobbins will start DJ. I'm all for competition, but I still feel Crowder is better than Dobbins and will come out on top.

As for the FS position, I'm hesitant to say who will be our starter. Clemons has the physical skill set, but Culver is the veteran who will play solid and help stabalize the position. He may not make big plays, but he'll prevent them.

REally good article that helps to explain some of the reasons why the defense was so poor in 09, one of the largest reasons being the coverages were unsound and the players made to many mistakes in their assignments and reads.

Some defensive coaches have a saying that big plays are because of three things. They are missed assignment, missed alignment, and missed tackles.

I think that could be a very apt description of our defense in 2009.

I smell playoffs this year...we are already a gritty team and we got alot better imo with Marshall, Dansby, Nolan.

"Ashraf wrote:

I'm not so sure Clemons and Dobbins will start DJ. I'm all for competition, but I still feel Crowder is better than Dobbins and will come out on top.

As for the FS position, I'm hesitant to say who will be our starter. Clemons has the physical skill set, but Culver is the veteran who will play solid and help stabalize the position. He may not make big plays, but he'll prevent them.

culver or clemons will be an upgrade over wilson, that's how I look at that situation.......If dobbins can't beat out crowder, then we stay very weak at one of the inside linebacker positions and our susceptible against the run and pass.

"djphinfan wrote:

culver or clemons will be an upgrade over wilson, that's how I look at that situation.......If dobbins can't beat out crowder, then we stay very weak at one of the inside linebacker positions and our susceptible against the run and pass.

I agree Crowder is a liability out there.
I would love to see Dobbins take his job and believe it is possible
I can't fathom after five years how some people can still support Channing,

IMO the biggest reasons for the big plays we allowed last year were schematic and mental mistakes. Lack of talent was further down the list. That is why I never agreed with the push for wholesale roster turnover or the need to have four new starting LBs. I have stated many times that if we just had better play from a true FS many of those big plays would go away. The article linked above and the examples given in it illustrate that and echo what I have been saying. IMO that would yield far more than the 3-5 fewer big plays mentioned earlier in this thread. My guess is that with that one change we would have allowed 15-25 fewer big plays. And I agree that we would have easily made the playoffs.

Now, I did lobby hard for the addition of Dansby. We did need an upgrade from Ayodele and we needed Crowder to move over to the other ILB spot (and also to be healthy). We also needed more speed at LB in general. But in reality every LB in the league is at a disadvantage on most every pass route. If you check out the stats you'll find that even the best ILBs get beaten for the catch at least 50%-75% of the time. For example, Dansby's coverage assignment made the catch 70.9% of the time last year, Crowders guy caught the ball 76.3%. For comparison's sake Patrick Willis' guy caught the ball 77.3% of the time and IMO he's the best ILB in football. It simply isn't reasonable to expect your LBs to stop these completions. What is reasonable is to expect these LBs to make the tackle shortly after the pass is completed. The way the NFL offenses operate nowadays, most passes against the LBs are thrown short of the first down, so if your LB makes the tackle (or if your S backs him up immediately) your defense is likely to have prevented the conversion.

I also think that the expected maturation of our two young CBs, who have all the talent in the world, will cut down a few of those big plays. We didn't need a talent upgrade there we just needed those guys to gain experience.

So, IMO the addition of Nolan, better FS play, more speed at LB and the maturation of the CBs could very easily cut down the big plays we allowed by more than half, which would put is easily in the top 5 in that category. I think the biggest question marks from that list are at FS and whether the CBs will take that next step. I agree with DJ that Culver is an upgrade and I also think that a Clemons that has minimized his mental errors would also be an upgrade over what we had last year.

I don't agree that a healthy Crowder is a liability. That same healthy Crowder was rated as a top 5 ILB by PFF in 2008 and top 10 against the run. I think people see the errors and fail to realize that every ILB makes them and on average does so more often than Crowder. I also think Crowder is downgraded b/c he rarely makes those highlight hits. I watched many San Diego games the last couple of years and while Dobbins made more big hits, he also, on a percentage basis, filled the wrong hole, allowed the completion or generally messed up more often than Crowder. I like the Dobbins and believe he could be a starter, but he'd be a downgrade for our defense if he replaced Crowder. I also think it makes very little sense to remove his talent from our STs unit.

I think with Mike Nolan's defense we should put those big play mistakes to a minimum. If anything we should be creating big plays!!

I think it's a little unfair to heap all the blame on the FS. The SS (Bell) made mistakes as well.

Also the LB turn over issue I think was just as much about age as play. We were very old at OLB. This FO has systematically gone younger on defense. I just see this as a continuation of philosophy.

Next year we have Will Allen coming back so that should help on the mental mistakes as well.

"djphinfan wrote:

culver or clemons will be an upgrade over wilson, that's how I look at that situation.......If dobbins can't beat out crowder, then we stay very weak at one of the inside linebacker positions and our susceptible against the run and pass.

I disagree. I don't see Crowder as a liability. I think he fits Nolan's defense.

"mbmonk wrote:

I think it's a little unfair to heap all the blame on the FS. The SS (Bell) made mistakes as well.

Also the LB turn over issue I think was just as much about age as play. We were very old at OLB. This FO has systematically gone younger on defense. I just see this as a continuation of philosophy.

Next year we have Will Allen coming back so that should help on the mental mistakes as well.

IMO that was part of the system problem in that we were using both Ss as SSs. I think we'd be better off with more defined and separate roles.

The issue last year on defense was speed. Thats not really relevant to any single position, because I don't think any single starter was speed deficient per se, but overall we were just too slow.

"rafael wrote:

I don't agree that a healthy Crowder is a liability. That same healthy Crowder was rated as a top 5 ILB by PFF in 2008 and top 10 against the run. I think people see the errors and fail to realize that every ILB makes them and on average does so more often than Crowder. I also think Crowder is downgraded b/c he rarely makes those highlight hits. I watched many San Diego games the last couple of years and while Dobbins made more big hits, he also, on a percentage basis, filled the wrong hole, allowed the completion or generally messed up more often than Crowder. I like the Dobbins and believe he could be a starter, but he'd be a downgrade for our defense if he replaced Crowder. I also think it makes very little sense to remove his talent from our STs unit.

My problem with Crowder is not his lack of highlight plays, but rather, his lack of athleticism towards the ball-carrier. I think he plays the run decently, but takes bad angles with respect to his lack of closing speed (which is very apparent when he is in coverage). He might make the tackle, but maybe only after the carrier gets a few more yards. Those extra yards = first downs. First downs = more chances an opponent gets at scoring points.

For example, you focused on 2008, and his STFs stat ("stuffs" or "tackles for loss") per ESPN.com was 6. Not too bad considering Patrick Willis only had one more that year. But here is where Crowder is lacking, his STFY (basically, "yards lost") was only for 8 yards. Compare that to Willis' 23 yards and we begin to see the difference between "ILB" and "great ILB".

Of course, this is only for comparison's sake only. By no means would anyone put Crowder in the same sentence as Willis; if only for comparison and the fact that they both play ILB in a 3-4.

What I like about Crowder is that he is a smart player. He knows what to do, but his lack of speed and athleticism makes him susceptible to giving up more yards than necessary. This could be a direct reason for his lack of STFY. It's not definitive by any means, but for the sake of making a point did I compare the statistics.

I like Crowder. I think he is what he is, a cerebral player who lacks the speed to keep up. He has the tendency to over pursue or take the bad angle. I am tired of waiting for Crowder to have that breakout year. Miami is fortunate to have invested in Dansby.

**EDIT**

Also, because Crowder takes bad angles, he is more likely to use poor technique in his tackle attempts, which leads to missed tackles (for which he is known to make).

**EDIT EDIT**

I would also be interested in seeing Crowder's YAC stat (if there is such a thing for defensive players) compared to the rest of the league.

"Colmax wrote:

My problem with Crowder is not his lack of highlight plays, but rather, his lack of athleticism towards the ball-carrier. I think he plays the run decently, but takes bad angles with respect to his lack of closing speed (which is very apparent when he is in coverage). He might make the tackle, but maybe only after the carrier gets a few more yards. Those extra yards = first downs. First downs = more chances an opponent gets at scoring points.

For example, you focused on 2008, and his STFs stat ("stuffs" or "tackles for loss") per ESPN.com was 6. Not too bad considering Patrick Willis only had one more that year. But here is where Crowder is lacking, his STFY (basically, "yards lost") was only for 8 yards. Compare that to Willis' 23 yards and we begin to see the difference between "ILB" and "great ILB".

Of course, this is only for comparison's sake only. By no means would anyone put Crowder in the same sentence as Willis; if only for comparison and the fact that they both play ILB in a 3-4.

What I like about Crowder is that he is a smart player. He knows what to do, but his lack of speed and athleticism makes him susceptible to giving up more yards than necessary. This could be a direct reason for his lack of STFY. It's not definitive by any means, but for the sake of making a point did I compare the statistics.

I like Crowder. I think he is what he is, a cerebral player who lacks the speed to keep up. He has the tendency to over pursue or take the bad angle. I am tired of waiting for Crowder to have that breakout year. Miami is fortunate to have invested in Dansby.

**EDIT**

Also, because Crowder takes bad angles, he is more likely to use poor technique in his tackle attempts, which leads to missed tackles (for which he is known to make).

**EDIT EDIT**

I would also be interested in seeing Crowder's YAC stat (if there is such a thing for defensive players) compared to the rest of the league.

Crowder will miss some tackles and he will take some bad angles. He is also smart and against the run makes the right choice more often than most NFL ILBs. On the whole, he is actually an above average ILB statistically. I'm not waiting for him to breakout, b/c he is never going to be Willis. He's just going to be a good starter for us and that's not a liability.

IMO CC gets far more criticism than he deserves. In '08 Crowder missed 12 tackles in 946 snaps (1 every 79 snaps). That same year Dobbins missed 10 tackles in 408 snaps (1 every 41 snaps). In '09 when Crowder was hurt he missed 10 tackles in 717 snaps (1 every 72 snaps). In '09 Dobbins missed 4 tackles in 299 snaps (1 every 75 snaps). I don't see how anybody can think that Dobbins will be provide an upgrade when he is far worse in coverage, equally poor as a pass rusher and misses no fewer tackles. It almost seems like people never watch other teams play. B/c when compared to other ILBs, a healthy Crowder fares pretty well.

"Killerphins wrote:

I agree Crowder is a liability out there.
I would love to see Dobbins take his job and believe it is possible
I can't fathom after five years how some people can still support Channing,

It is probably because every time he has bene out of th elineup, we have actually been WORSE out there. He isn't great, but he has been the best of a haggard lot over the past few years. More of a front office problem than a Channing Crowder problem at this point.

I actually like what Channing brings to the team in terms of being a good teammate and a vocal leader on defense. I just wish he had more game changing ability in him.

"rafael wrote:

Crowder will miss some tackles and he will take some bad angles. He is also smart and against the run makes the right choice more often than most NFL ILBs. On the whole, he is actually an above average ILB statistically. I'm not waiting for him to breakout, b/c he is never going to be Willis. He's just going to be a good starter for us and that's not a liability.

IMO CC gets far more criticism than he deserves. In '08 Crowder missed 12 tackles in 946 snaps (1 every 79 snaps). That same year Dobbins missed 10 tackles in 408 snaps (1 every 41 snaps). In '09 when Crowder was hurt he missed 10 tackles in 717 snaps (1 every 72 snaps). In '09 Dobbins missed 4 tackles in 299 snaps (1 every 75 snaps). I don't see how anybody can think that Dobbins will be provide an upgrade when he is far worse in coverage, equally poor as a pass rusher and misses no fewer tackles. It almost seems like people never watch other teams play. B/c when compared to other ILBs, a healthy Crowder fares pretty well.

I agree, he is not necessarily a liability against the run.

In coverage? I think he is more of a liability than not. And his stats might point otherwise, and I may just be thinking of his TE coverages, but he seems to be very poor in coverage; even including the stats you included regarding the catching percentages.

I really do not know this Dobbins guy, so I cannot really comment on him. But thanks on the insight on the missed tackles for a little perspective on what we might be getting from him.

"Samphin wrote:

It is probably because every time he has bene out of th elineup, we have actually been WORSE out there. He isn't great, but he has been the best of a haggard lot over the past few years. More of a front office problem than a Channing Crowder problem at this point.

I actually like what Channing brings to the team in terms of being a good teammate and a vocal leader on defense. I just wish he had more game changing ability in him.

Which proves Crowder's worth. I remember those games. The guy knows what he is doing. I just wish his play on the field would equal what his head already knows.

"rafael wrote:

Crowder will miss some tackles and he will take some bad angles. He is also smart and against the run makes the right choice more often than most NFL ILBs. On the whole, he is actually an above average ILB statistically. I'm not waiting for him to breakout, b/c he is never going to be Willis. He's just going to be a good starter for us and that's not a liability.

IMO CC gets far more criticism than he deserves. In '08 Crowder missed 12 tackles in 946 snaps (1 every 79 snaps). That same year Dobbins missed 10 tackles in 408 snaps (1 every 41 snaps). In '09 when Crowder was hurt he missed 10 tackles in 717 snaps (1 every 72 snaps). In '09 Dobbins missed 4 tackles in 299 snaps (1 every 75 snaps). I don't see how anybody can think that Dobbins will be provide an upgrade when he is far worse in coverage, equally poor as a pass rusher and misses no fewer tackles. It almost seems like people never watch other teams play. B/c when compared to other ILBs, a healthy Crowder fares pretty well.

Once again with the stats. I know you love that stuff but watch Crowder he lacks awareness and makes up for it sometimes because he has a big motor. He doesn't play smart at all. We have been told by the player and the coaching, even Parcells chimed in that he just runs around out there too much and is limited in structure. He knows it and they know it is a weakness that equates to a liability. I don't search out meaningless stats that deceive my eyes. I rely on what I see. You touched on earlier how LB's get burned in coverage 70% of the time overall and they better make the stop after the catch. Crowder doesn't do that well either from what I've seen.
I know we differ on Dobbins and have both dug in but I need something different. The quick extension tells me the FO might too regardless of Ireland's initial comments. Crowder has that injury history so he is often not healthy which is the main part of your debate. that is a big "if" my friend.

"Colmax wrote:

I agree, he is not necessarily a liability against the run.

In coverage? I think he is more of a liability than not. And his stats might point otherwise, and I may just be thinking of his TE coverages, but he seems to be very poor in coverage; even including the stats you included regarding the catching percentages.

I really do not know this Dobbins guy, so I cannot really comment on him. But thanks on the insight on the missed tackles for a little perspective on what we might be getting from him.

thus the reason we drafted AJ Edds to hopefully be the nickel LB
but when you see Channing getting plowed over by the likes of Mike Bell
time for a change. Edds doesn't give you that yet at all as far as stopping the run but Dobbins might. remember this is a new scheme

"Killerphins wrote:

Once again with the stats. I know you love that stuff but watch Crowder he lacks awareness and makes up for it sometimes because he has a big motor. He doesn't play smart at all. We have been told by the player and the coaching, even Parcells chimed in that he just runs around out there too much and is limited in structure. He knows it and they know it is a weakness that equates to a liability. I don't search out meaningless stats that deceive my eyes. I rely on what I see. You touched on earlier how LB's get burned in coverage 70% of the time overall and they better make the stop after the catch. Crowder doesn't do that well either from what I've seen.
I know we differ on Dobbins and have both dug in but I need something different. The quick extension tells me the FO might too regardless of Ireland's initial comments. Crowder has that injury history so he is often not healthy which is the main part of your debate. that is a big "if" my friend.

Unless you watch every game than what you see is an incomplete picture. You can't compare Crowder to other LBs without knowing how other LBs did. And I prefer to go on what I see, but I know that sometimes my emotions get in the way of an objective analysis. It's pretty obvious that having an emotional attachment will cause most people to do a poor job of analysis.