Your Religion or Spirituality

Christianity is exclusionary, there is no question about that. God rejects those who reject Him. Plain and simple.

But.....

Before putting the final nail in the coffin of Christianity, one should first examine the question of "Is there an absolute moral authority?" Because if there is, then it really does not matter what anyone of us thinks is true, just and moral. What matters is that God alone has the authority to set the rules, and we either accept that or reject that.

Now if one concludes that there is no absolute moral authority, then the obvious result of that is individual morality, or what is known as relative morality. Then each one of us can determine what ever type of morality we feel comfortable with, without any foundation other than what we think in our own mind, what feels good, what seems right etc....The problem with that is without an absolute moral authority, we have no basis to declare that our morality is more right than any other, or less wrong.

I believe in an absolute moral authority. Am I wrong?

 

So the problem is that without absolute moral authority, people cannot be judgemental?

 

I think you're asking the wrong question. The question is not, "Is there an absolute moral authority?" it's "Does any mortal man know for sure WHICH claimant to the absolute moral authority is correct, if any?"

 

Also shouldn't a lot of this discussion be in a different thread since this one is just about what an indivisual person's beliefs are?

 

Can't argue with that, its up to each person to figure that out for themselves.

 

Congrats on getting married! I hope for a lifetime of happiness for you two

 

No bro...haven't you figured it out by now?

 

I am conflicted on my beliefs when it comes to this topic.

For example: i cannot stand religion yet i have come to love God regardless of what form you accept him in.

I believe all religions are inherently good in their intentions yet they cause too much strife over too many stupid subtle differences for me to ever support one.

I was born and raised Jewish yet I have not set foot inside a temple (or any other religiuous home) since I was 13 other then for cermonial events (weddings, funerals etc) and the only reason I went for that long was because it was forced on me by my parents understandably so when you read on....

My Grandfather on my mothers side was a Holocaust survivor so at an early age I learned to dislike religion for the predicament it had landed him in (a wheelchair at a young age). I learned to dislike it for the stupidity it brings out in some people, for the conflict it causes, for the hate/intolerance people have for others. Granted its only a moderate percentage of people in this country who feel this way but in other countries its more prevalent.

My experiences in holy places has not been pleasant.

I went through a stage of atheism I guess as a form of rebellion to the above statement. Later, I realized my mistake (at least imo it was a mistake) and came to realize I could accept that there is a God without actually liking any of the religions I have come across.

 

I think it comes down to this for me.

I think its up to each individual to believe what they want about religion. I may have questions of that believe, but who am I to say they are wrong?

I do think that if there is a god, he is spinning in his grave (Pardon the pun) with the way the world is. I don't think he wanted his name being used to be a tool in killings like it has been for centuries, whether it be in the name of God or Allah or whomever ones believe in.

I can't fault people that don't believe either, with what is going on around the world makes it hard to believe there is a mighty being looking over us.

Like I said earlier, I believe in God, I'm don't believe everything in the bible. I also don't believe you have to go to church each week to be a good Catholic. But that's what's good for me. But I won't tell anyone else they have to believe like I do or the wrath of God will destroy them.

I also hate when people of faith try and tell you what you should believe, its up to each individual to find whats good for them.

 

Bravo.

 

Actually that would be the second question.

If we determine there is an absolute moral authority, then the next question would be - Which one is it?

 

Go back and review to see who started questioning and commenting on others posts first.

I'll give you a clue - "Mirror".

 

People can be judgemental all they want, but they don't have the basis to do so. That is the point.

With individual morality your views are just as valid as 911 terrorists. Neither one can be right, or wrong, because there is no unchanging standard to base it on.

 

I never said that I wasn't at fault.

Still if I am being a questioning prick, why does that justify others in being questioning pricks as well?

 

It is people who are on this earth and it is people who we have to live with being judgementally.

Unless there was a moral authority that actually mandated the moral authority such as gave clear consise constant feedback, ie, Stem cells are not exactly in the Bible, then it is always going to be indivisual morality.

 

That is fine with me if you want to believe that morality is defined by each individual.

But you have no basis to define right and wrong outside of your individual belief.

That is all I am saying.

I believe in a absolute moral authority. Am I wrong?

 

You won't know until you die if you are wrong or not.

On earth, here, the only thing that exists is morality defined by each indivisual.

 

Not for you

Maybe for others.

 

I believe both are unknowable. But I also believe that people behave better, generally, when they believe there is an absolute moral authority, but that they have the potential to behave worse when they think only they know what that authority wants.

 

Can you answer the question? Do you think I am wrong?

 

Honestly? Yup.

I don't think your absolute moral authority exists, so yes, I believe you're wrong.

 

I know now, I don't have to wait until I die.

You can wait if you want, but if there is a divine absolute morality, that would be too late.

I certainly would want to know ahead of time wouldn't you?

If you are so certain of your belief, are you willing to die for that belief today?

If not then you shouldn't be so convinced that you have it all figured out.

I am ready, today.

 

Ok Good. No surprise there.

Now can you tell me why I am wrong? What basis are you using to define right and wrong?

 

I do not see a need to die for that belief today. Other then the fact there are certain things I would like to accomplish before I die, I would be fine dying now WITH my beliefs.

If it was just the belief system that I have in place there is no need to die for any of them. I discuss them because I enjoy discussing them.

I know I do not have it all figured out. I know that is impossible at this stage in reality.

 

That's cool. One last thing....

You said - I would be fine dying now WITH my beliefs.

Then you said - I know I do not have it all figured out.

You are willing to die with your beliefs knowing that you could be wrong?

Boy I tell ya .....if I didn't know for sure, I would want as much time on earth as I could to figure it out. But that is just me.

 

No I am willing to die knowing that I do not have it all figured out. That is something I do not believe is possible. There is too much ALL for it to be all figured out.

There is just so much to figure out to have it ALL figured out.

 

I never said I was right. I just said I have as much right to say I was right than John has and had back in the day.

I could quote Schopenhauer until I went blue and it wouldnt matter to BB or you, so I found it just plain weird that quotes of the bible are still used as proof. Which is quite frankly... at this point....

 

Ok I see where you are coming from. You make it sound really complicated.

To me, and this is just me, it was really simple.

We either got here by chance, or we were designed by a creator.

Since it is impossible for non-life to become life, and it is impossible to create new DNA, I concluded we were created by a designer.

Of all the possible divinities I looked at, The Christian God by far has a preponderance of evidence of His existance, moreso than any other religion.

That's how and why I beleive in God Jesus and the bible.

 

It depends on what you are talking about. Are you talking about having it all figured out or are you talking about the feeling of knowing? That is a hard question to muster. I just see life, the universe and everything as a big thing that is hard to understand.

The thing is I do believe we were designed by a creator. I just believe that he didn't pull a rabbit out of his hat and poofed life into existance.

Also in our lifetime. It really wouldn't suprise me if we (as humans) created life.

How many divinities have you look at? I know of two who believe in the Christian god as well such as Islam who believes that Jesus is a prophet in their religion and Baha'i which also believes in that same god.

My question to you is that have you ever prayed to your god and ask him and be open to the idea that really, from Alah to the Christian God to even Zues, that they all are the same?

 

I have studied Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, eastern shamanism etc and many Christian cults and sects.

IF you beleive we were designed by a creator, which means life in all it's complexity, then why would't you believe that he could make it all happen instantly?

Even science has concluded that the Universe (big bang) happened in a second.

 

I don't believe he couldn't. I just believe he didn't. Maybe if life spawns on Mars tomorrow out of nowhere I would be more likely to believe that is how he works. What I read of Genesis, it really doesn't sound much different than the sky raped the earth until Cronus cut off his ***** and flung it into the ocean which spawned people.

Science did conclude that the big bang happen in seconds. The rest they concluded took billions of years.

 

I didn't say you ARE wrong., I said I BELIEVE you are wrong. And I do so because I don't believe in what you believe. Will I say my way is the right way? No, I won't. Will I say it's the only way? No, I won't.

But I will say it's the only way and the right way for ME.

Now why don't you take some of your own advice, and stop hyjacking this thread like you do pretty much every other one, and - as you're so fond of saying - get back to the topic?

 

Word games. You are avoiding the debate Pagan. Why am I wrong? On what basis can you say I am wrong? Saying I am wrong or saying you believe I am wrong is the same thing. Explain why? Explain why 911 terrorists are wrong?

Hyjacking the thread? This thread is about "Your religion and spirituality!"

This is exactly what we are talking about.

Does anyone think that a thread with that title will not get into discussions like this?

Please.

 

I'm not avoiding any debate bro. Just like YOU never explain why your way is the "truth" I don't owe you jack **** of an explanation why I think you're full of that same jack, comprende?

I think you're wrong because I think I'm right, and that's all the answer you're entitled to - as far as I'm concerned - until you start backing up what you say. You demand a great deal for someone who gives nothing.

The thread was started - and I quote - with the comment:

It wasn't started with "Let's turn this into yet another forum to prove the validity of Christianity."

Prerry much I think it was just started for everyone to say WHAT they are and WHAT they believe. NOT to debate such things. There's plenty of other threads for that.

As long as you're a member bro, a thread about rat droppings will somehow turn into discussions like this.

 

here it is we finally found the TRUTH.

 

And all you have to do is ignore my posts and there would be no more debate. Every response you make demands an answer, so you perpetuate and exacerbate the debate. Does this site have an ignore feature?

Pagan you want proof of Christianity, yet you have been commenting on the subject for 4 plus years now and there has been much evidence provided to you by myself and other posters? You jsut don't want to accept it. It isn't proof you are seeking, because there is no amount of proof that you would accept. You are only interested in stifling debate on the issue because you don't want to hear about it.

Someone once said: Our purpose as Christians is not to answer pointless questions from skeptics who have no intention of believing.

I have many times offered to you to discuss this in private with you, yet you refused everytime. This just confirms that you are not interested in answers, only attacking and making rude and insulting comments in public.

Talking about relative verses absolute morality is one way of providing support of an all mighty creator, but once again you choose to avoid the debate.

So let's try it another way? Why are you right? On what basis are you right? Why are you right, and 911 terrorists wrong? Because they think they are right too. So which one is right?

You are looking for proof, but you have to enter the debate in order to get it. It won't just show up on your doorstep one Sunday morning.

Mods if this thread is off topic please move these posts to an appropriate thread topic and we can continue (I hope) the discussion.

 

And you can ignore my comments to my friend.

No, there hasn't been any proof bro. All you've ever given is Bible quotes and Christian websites. We've done this dance before, they're slightly biased, no?

You've made some claims in here that bordered from the usual (your way is the truth) to the baseless (man existed the same time as dinosaurs) to the ridiculous (dinosaur eggs on Noah's Ark) and have never provided one shred of evidence or proof of that, yet somehow you insist I give you "proof" of why I believe you're wrong?

That's funny, you don't seem to have a problem trying to prove your beliefs to those who don't believe though.

Oh cry me a river. Every time you're contradicted it's an "attack". Please, stop with the persecution already. If it's an attack to ask you to back up your comments, then I'll "attack" you every time you make them.

I've said this to you before. You make wild statements in a public forum, then BACK THEM UP in the same forum. Don't make statements and then say "if you want to know, PM" me.

That's a cop out and it's bull****. It also makes it VERY convenient to say "well...I GAVE him his proof in a PM, but he still won't believe me."

You seem to have no problem telling anyone who wants to listen - and alot of them who don't - that your way is the "truth", yet you turn timid when it comes to showing the facts behind this "truth".

This just confirms that you have no proof.

Okay then, enlighten me as to how you think this proves your God. I'm all ears.

I told you, I am right for ME. No offense, but I couldn't care any less if what's right for me is what's right for anyone else. It's my choice to follow the path I want to follow, and none of us - including YOU - truly know if we're right or not. We'll all find out someday.

Why not? You're claiming your God created everything instantly. Why can't you just drop some proof into one of these threads?

Doesn't seem like much to ask. Show us ONE instance of proof that doesn't come from the Bible or from a Christian website. ONE. I've been asking you for years now.

You still can't do it.

 

Are looking for proof of the Christian God from secular science, who don't believe in said God? That makes sense to you?

Are you under the impression that scientists who are also believers aren't real scientists?

If you answer yes to both questions then there is nothing that you will accept?

But anyway.....

I can show you evidence in support of God, Jesus and the Bible. I can show you intellectually and logically, and in some cases use science to support that God is real, Jesus is the real deal and the bible is true.

What I can't do is put God in a test tube and say here is God Mr Pagan. I have never claimed that I could do that.

All I can do is provide evidence in support of Creation.

With that - when we look in the fossil record we see a sudden appearance of life, in complete form, some snap frozen in time - standing up, buried in a rapid fashion in water/mud/sand so as to preserve them as the fossils we see today. We see this all over the world. We see whale fossils on land, in high elevations above sea level, in several places on earth. We see large fossil beds consisting of many diverese creatures all burried at the same time in the same manner, all over the world. These are the facts. There is no debate on this issue. This is what all scientists observe in the fossil record.

This is direct observational evidence that supports a global flood of the Genesis magnitude. Doesn't prove it, but it does support it. Evolution can't explain it, yet it is there.

Now I ask you - What do you think of that?

 

I have seen many scientific non genesis explainations of all those things. From the mass magma bubble that caused the first mass extinction to the metorite/volcanic combo that they think killed all the dinosaurs.

Plus plate tectonics explains why whale fossils are on land.

 

The great flood that you believe occurred was supposedly caused by rain for 40 days and 40 nights. How does this event lend itself to your "frozen in time" theory?

And I think you're wrong by saying evolution doesn't explain it anyway. There have been many periods of extinction since the birth of this planet, that is a proven fact. The earth and the land masses on the earth are always changing and moving. Where there was once land is now ocean and where there was once ocean is now land. That being factually correct it's rather easy to see that there may possibly be another explanation besides "the creator shook the etcha-a-sketch."