Your Religion or Spirituality

My friend, your defense of the absurd dissolves into oblivion with every deflection of the facts.

You have done nothing but parrot what all creationists have said, and you do so despite evidence that has already been presented. That leads me to one sad conclusion; You don't read replies and respond to the issues. Instead, like most anti-science minded people, you run to anti-science fact sites and paste answers.

 

Pagan come now. We had agreed to discuss the evidence that supports creation. I provided some factual flood evidence. I don't feel inclined to show more because of the response I get from you , which was expected, but I had hoped that you had arrived at a place where we could at least discuss it.

Flood evidence is there. Saying that the world was underwater anyway isn't really debating the issue, because correct me if I am wrong but that kind of under water is totally different than a catastrophic world wide flood that happened at the same time. The evidence supports this. Your statement that earth was underwater at one time was actually over millions of millions of , or maybe billions of years ago. The evidence shows a recent world wide flood.

Possible in your mind?

I am not asking you to believe it. I am not saying that others don't have alternative theories. I am asking you if the evidence could support a worldwide flood?

It is really a simple yes or no.

 

Fascinating, what would make Christianity at it's core Anti Science?

BTW I'm a gap theory person myself, the idea that somehow string theory or even the actual theory of relativity would be relevant to pre 100 BC people seems a touch absurd to me.

The 6 day theory for example is based on the Hebrew for "Day" that being "yom", the first appearance of the word is in Genisis, in the 6 days of creation, which leads me to think that "yom" was made backwards compatatible...

 

Likewise. I haven't sold my objectivity for a piece of worthless paper and called that wisdom, or science.

All you have to do is show me where there is a natural occurance of new DNA being created that shows one organism being made into a different organism.

Not within species. Not adaptation. Not a mutation that does nothing, or makes a copy of something already made.

Something new.

This is why creationists say what they say over and over again becasue evolution is not only false, it is impossible.

We say this because there is no evidence to show that evolution is true, yet we teach it to our kids as fact. Hogwash!

Remember - you still haven't gotten out of the gate - non-life becoming life.

So you can sit there and say people don't know science. You can say they don't answer posts. I don't answer videos. You can say whatever you want. I have attempted to answer every post in this thread, with my own words, not some video to speak for me. I educate myself on the issues I feel are important. I ain't no expert, but I know a fake when I see one.

Evolution is a fake, and can't answer the two tough questions I have posed.

Not only that ...some leading secular scientists have the same exact issue with evolution.

Origin of life and mechanism of change.

If you can't answer these two fundamental question, then step out of the batters box.

I may not be popular here. I may be outnumbered. I may be hated I don't know. But I won't let anyone try to pass off as fact something we all know to be false.

 

That is what science is. If it wasn't for that germs wouldn't be known as fact. We would have no idea what an atom is, the world would still be a flat disc riding on a turtle, and thunder would still be caused by Zues with god crying tears for rain.

Does science answer all questions? No, and it never will because there will always be more questions. There is always more to know. Always more to figure out.

In fact in my lifetime there have been at least 5 things that they found in space that were physically impossible until they found them to be a reality. So they asked the questions and learned. In fact that is how you learn.

 

Bro.....all I can say in reply to a statement like that is - and this is based on YOUR statement alone - you have not answered or proven anything either, so by your own logic Christianity is also fake.

 

No it wouldn't attack Christianity. There are many Christians who accept the facts of science.

I had not heard of the gap theory until you brought it up but on the face of it is seems like a cop out to try to make the recorded age of the world and species jive with the Genesis account but it flies in the face of the account of the age of the earth in the Gospels.

You lost me on the second part of that sentence. What does this discussion have to do with the theory of relativity or the string theory?

 

I have shown you many examples and have already done so in this thread but you either refuse to review the material or have reviewed the material and decided to raise the same arguments despite the facts. Either way, I am not going any further to help in your education.

As far as " objectivity for a piece of worthless paper and called that wisdom, or science."; I am assuming you are talking about getting an objective education based on fact? How is that inferior to blind faith belief of an account that has been proven wrong on so many counts? How "wise" is that?

 

1. evolution is light years closer to being proven than stories from religion. The good book is meant for interpretation and values. its not a book of facts. by such thinking, then God created the world 5,000 years ago in 6 days...ummm hundreds of millions of years after the dinosaurs roamed, and billions after the atmosphere consisted of gas matter? or are the dinosaurs a conspiracy of Satan's to help cripple religion?

a man a faith cannot so easily cast aside evolution. the evidence is 1,000s of times more solid than any faith's.

2. you're not hated here bro. everyone is doing a great job of keeping this highly personal topic classy and civilized.

 

Ehh to each there own in no way does it conflict, Gensis was written first after all. The second point involves the idea that a Creator would have laid out perfectly how Existence came to be to basically sheepherders and nomadic tribes, the depth would have been lost on them.

And BTW celtkin, by Cut and Pasting a link, aren't you engaging in what you said Dolphin 7 was doing...

 

Yes there is much more to it than clips for example Mark 9 38/40 And John answered him saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.

There are many things we don't know or understand, in this life, so how can we say our way is the only way? I only know that the way I've chosen for me is right for me. What is right for someone else is for him/her to deside. And how God desides to be with that person is not for me to say. I just know that he is within us all, believe it or not, God still love us all.

 

No, not at all. I didn't cut and past the content. I pasted a link for reference.

 

You mean, sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalaaaa" isn't how you learn?

 

Let me give and example of my second point:

We "know" that time is measured in Light, if one can achieve the speed of light then time becomes meaningless (more or less, and my apologies to Dr. Einstein for butchering his theory so completely).

now if we look in Genesis, we see that the Earth was created, then it was covered with Raging water" then Light was created meaning Time came into existence..yet the Earth was created before Light was...it would follow that there was no time beforehand....

Now try to make that relevant to someone cooking mutton over a cow flop fire 3500 years ago...

 

I guess if you believe the Genesis account, that would be the case.

Bro, just to clarify; Light has nothing to do with the theory or relativity or with time.

Time is a dimension. Light is a particle.

 

True, I was thinking along the lines of as one approaches the speed of light, time slows down for the individual's perceptions of time, not actual time/light itself.

either way, such an argument would be lost on post Neolithic/Bronze Age mankind.

Sort of, the "Ancients" were not savages per se, they were quite advanced, they did not have the sort of scientific equipment and assembled body of knowledge and theories that we posses to today at a click of a mouse.

And it also should be pointed out, that a Creator, would stand outside of any human notions of time or motion, as the instigator of motion, such notions are only effects of such actions, and they would flow one way as time is expressed in future events..

Fun stuff.

 

True stuff bro on the bolded part, though I really don't know how it relates to the evolution versus creation unless you are saying that their recorded account was flawed because they didn't understand the nature of time?

 

IMO, the nature of the actual Creation was generalized, not specified. If such specificity was written into the Scriptures, that would make it a History of Naturalism, not God's relationship to mankind.

That leaves KJV absolutists in the difficult position of trying to make the Bible into a tome that gives detailed information on the rise and fall of the trilobytes, and that is not the intention of Scripture IMO, the intention is to try and make a recalcitrant mankind learn to love one another and Man's Creator.

I also believe in progressive expanding of mankind's knowledge of "how" the Universe was created, the minutia of it all, as mirrors of the One who made us, such things are a part of mankind's purview. The problems arise when "we" (mankind) take those discoveries and use them for our purposes rather then the Good Purposes they were intended for, INOW we are the Authors of our own destruction, the Bible merely details that inevitability.

For example, in the early 30's, under the bleachers at Chicago U a physicist inserted some uranium into a pile and noted the temperature increased in the pile. Not even seven years later, the most brilliant minds in America were trying to discover how to harness that reaction.

We had two choices, 1. Cheap and Clean power for the world 2. Weaponize it.

Within 4 years of chalk going to chalk board, out in Los Alamos Robert Oppenheimer's team was igniting a nuclear bomb out at Trinity Fields....

 

I am what I like to call a Christ follower...no denomination, because the word religion has become to general and includes just about anything from A-Z, and because too much antagonism and differences between denomination. I can't believe the Roman Catholic way because they believe in confessing their sins to a priest, when the Bible plainly tells me I can confess them straight to God, without a mediator, and God can forgive my sins if all I do is ask, not confess to a person, or do something for that forgiveness, and this is in no way intended to be disrespectful or a knock on the Catholics, just some differences. I believe what it says, that by grace are ye saved and not that of yourselves....not all the good works in the world will get me to heaven.

I was raised very very strict, conservative Southern Baptist and believe me that is one of the main reasons I am non denominational. To much legalism, which I believe is against the teachings of God. An example, many religions believe you should wear your best to church, and look your best and churches spend a lot of their money on trappings and fancy building stuff and so on, instead of using the excess for the poor and needy.....And in the first chapter of Revelation, it plainly says Christ walks thru the "church" looking here and there and that he is not looking nor cares about the outter trappings, but at the heart of the church, what they are truly about..He doesn't care if the carpet is clean or expensive or if you have 5000 dollar drapes or this or that, all He is interested in is what is at the core, same as with folks....He could care less what you wear to church be it a suit or shorts(like I do), He sees none of that, He is looking at the heart, and the motivation there and why you are at church, if the reasons are right...you can look like the King of England and your heart not be right and it is for naught.

I found a non denominational church, the Chuck Smith ones, Calvary Chapel's, that fits me just fine...and they teach from the Bible.

I went to a 3 day thing with a Calvary C. Pastor, Skip Heitzig a couple years back and there were some ferociously strict Baptists there and their jaws hit the floor and they were astonished when Skip told them that the CC's dont pass offering plates...they just could not believe it...haha.
He explained they have boxes here and there out of the way, in the churches and folks know they are there and if they are so led to tithe they simply drop theirs in one of those boxes..neither do they preach and harp on tithing and giving money...We believe that God will lead those to give who do and that will be sufficient and it has worked over the years...CC's all over and they prosper and grow!...Those baptists tho just found it hard to believe...I kinda chuckled, because I grew up a baptist.

Don't believe in being a thorn either,...believe as the Bible says to be a light in the darkness, to live your life in a manner that others look at it and wonder what has that person got that makes them so content and happy...and so that others will want what they have, not force it on people and say you have to or anything....it is each and everyone's choice, that was what God gave each person was freedom of choice.
But I do believe one day we will each be accountable and have to answer one very important question when we stand before God...what did you do with my son Jesus and His sacrifice?

But that is just a little aobut my beliefs and sincerely not meant to knock anyone else or how they believe or feel....freedom of choice...t

 

Glanced thru the thread and my thoughts on a couple things..

evolution...faith is believing in that which cannot be seen. evolution has not been proven, and one thing I would like to know, IF evolution were true, then why have we stopped evolving? why aren't apes or whatever evolving even now? I saw somewhere a while back where, the skull or whatever that first started all the evolution years ago had been planted there or some such..can't remember the details on it, so hesitate to say for sure.

On the 6 days of creation, sometimes I wonder if it is actually 6 literal days or thousands of years, as the Bible also says that a day to God is as a thousand years...

I don't worry a lot about many of those things, I have faith that someday all will be made know to me in heaven..all I need to worry about is my salvation. It's hard to interpret the original manuscripts of the Bible to say exactly what they say into English, just aren't english words for a lot of it, and I don't believe that Genesis is a fully detailed history, don't think there are enough pages to write a detailed history, for what it's worth...t

 

we haven't stopped evolving. For one thing people are taller.

It isn't like evolution takes a few days and bam there is monkey

 

Species don't evolve, individuals evolve, and individuals ARE evolving. There are humans who have mutations that allow their muscles to get bigger and stronger than normal humans, for example.
Second, you're trying to come up with Piltdown Man, maybe? That wasn't a skull, it was a tooth, and it was a hoax begun by a Catholic priest and discovered by a scientist. And it hardly "started all the evolution."

 

Keep in mind though, there is a fine line between Modernity Deism and believeing in nothing, it's fine to wonder, but we are grounded in Truth, or Logos..

I am with you on non sectarian, there are underpinnings that should not be easily cast aside.

 

Species do evolve...

 

For historians the bible is seen as a possible display of history. The good book thus far has proven to yield some accurate characters and placed into some accurate events......

 

Something interesting I read a book about the geologists that have researched the great flood. I believe the current theory is there was a local flood that occurred.........

 

I am going to make a very general comment here and it is aimed at no one in particular but, for the most part, the folks here who are critical of science and evolution are the most lacking in general biological science knowledge. It is painful to even talk to them at times because the same baseless arguments are raised time and time again.

It would be like a non-Christian talking to a Christian and starting every debate with "the bible says monkey can fly and that Christ was 94 feet tall" -- all made up -- nothing based in fact. That is the same sort of silliness that I see when there is a discussion about what science "believes".

For my part, I was raised a Methodist. My grandfather had a Doctor of Divinity and I was raised in a very devout family. I converted to the Church of Christ as an young man and I continue to this day to believe precepts of the bible. I am well read and I know more about the scriptures than most of the people who debate me know about science with which I am very familiar. The only part of the bible that makes no sense in the light of overwhelming evidence is the Genesis creation event.

Please don't ask me where I went "wrong" and why I turned from the "truth".

What you will never see me do is try to change someone's mind about ANY religious belief. I don't have that right but I can't stand by and listen to arguments that I know are scientifically inaccurate.

 

well to answer the question I was born catholic, but didn't believe in some of the teachings so now I consider myself more of just a generic christian. I do also enjoy science and math, and do not see those to be mutually exclusive to religion. How and why I don't really have an explanation...........

 

After all we have been through together...

Evolutionary "science" is not quite the tower of strength that those who rely upon it think it is, or better said, if the Bible does not have all answers, then Evolutionary Theory does not either...

Small organism evolution is possible, higher order being is not proven, there is not a single four winged fruit fly that has changed into a honey bee, even after their genes had been modified to enable flight....

 

See...that's what I mean.

I still love you brother

 

If you get a chance bro, please send me the link to the scientific paper where a four winged fly was modified to be a honey bee -- or whatever experiment you are referring to.

I'd be interested in reading the manuscript.

 

Ahh Love, the most powerful force in the Universe, indeed perhaps in Existence, we both know that higher order evolution is a theory in search of conclusive (not anectdotal) evidence...

For myself, we are putting the cart before the "irreducible complexity" horse.

If one shows some love for one's adversaries, is not one showing simply the same traits as God does everyday?

 

Such a paper does not exist, bu fruit flies of all things, even ones that cannot fly are used as a "proof" that evolution is the Complete Theory..

Personally if my 4 months out of date yogurt demands the right to marry the cream cheese, I will buy into Evolutionary Theory lock stock and two smoking barrels...

 

Its not that they think it is a sole display of history, it is that just like other works of religious lore or fiction of old times, they can bring historical accounts in them in so far as they brush historical fact. The Iliad and the Odissey are also examined by historians for their historical importance, which does not mean that anyone believes mermaids where roaming the earth, but it seems to actually tell us about the begining of a battle between the middle east and the european west (troy has been placed in turkey).

 

I appreciate the discussion that is taking place, and I understand your statement was not aimed at anyone in particular. However, you have made a number of statements (as have others) that science is the standard which will reveal what is true. I wonder if you believe this statement to be true:

Whatever is true will be proven by empirical scientific method.

 

What I am saying is, a whole species doesn't evolve across the board...like "humans" or "apes" evolving. Individuals within that species develop mutations and pass them on, so you'll still have the original species extant even when those breeding individuals create a new species or sub-species.

 

micro vs. macro evolution? Christians will agree with micro evolution, and the demands of "science" should regard macro-evolution as theoretical interpretation, and creationists will agree.

Gen 1:21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Gen 1:24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds--livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.

Gen 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

As the evidence is gathered we see that all creatures produce after their own kind (micro-evolution within kinds, adaptation to environment etc...). God saw that it was good, and we see the glory of God represented in the great variety of life that attests to the great Creator and Designer of life.

 

Why am I sitting here thinking what a waste of time this is?

16 pages and not one person is any different then they were when it started.

Might as well keep your opinions to yourself for all they're worth to anybody else.

I've always said, there are two types of people in this world, and they'll never agree. Maybe I should change it to there are two kinds of people in this world and they hate each other. That seems more accurate. I mean, we can all sit here and say how wonderful it is that you have the opposite opinion as me but, if push ever came to shove, well, we all know how that goes. Admiration or friendships fly out the window at that point.

It's depressing and never ending.