1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Zeitgeist, The Movie

Discussion in 'Religion and Spirituality' started by inFINSible, Apr 8, 2008.

  1. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,465
    37,345
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Well Dupree, one thing we can say that those pictures are not of is missile debris, unless of course someone strew aircraft wreckage on the lawn of the pentagon without anyone noticing them doing so....
     
  2. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

    35,073
    25,542
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    I see a little chunk of metal that could be from anything that is made from metal, like a bus. I see some round thing that could be from anywhere.

    I have heard from people they say a plane. I have heard people say they saw a missle. The pictures I have seen from "conspiricy theoriest" did look a lot less "conspircy theorist" pictures as the two that were just presented to me.
     
  3. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,465
    37,345
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Is there any part of a missile that has red and blue piping, or do American Airlines planes have those colors?

    BTW, there were scores of people on that flight, including the wife of the US Solicitor General, the US Govt's Lawyer who argues cases for the Govt at the Supreme Court..what happened to them?

    BTW Lynn Olsen called her husband's and left a detailed message about the hijacking and the hijackers, what happened to her, and the rest of the people on flight 77?

    In the words of Mr. Jones at the 9/11 conference: "I'm not here to discuss facts"....
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2008
    Rick 1966 likes this.
  4. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

    35,073
    25,542
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    I do not know. I am not exactly an expert. Nor do I have an emotional reason to go either way
     
  5. DevilFin13

    DevilFin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    8,480
    3,782
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    I'm no expert either. So both ways seem to make sense to me. I can see how the jet fuel heats things up enough to make things happen the way the gov't says. But it does seem odd that building 7 would fall like it did.

    Yeah there is a lot of stuff I want verified before I buy into it. I'm not sure how feasible it is to verify the stuff in part 3. On a certain level I want to believe it but on another I don't want to.

    I guess the thing I take away from it is we should have a certain level of distrust toward just about everything and everyone.
     
  6. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    6,982
    2,521
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Lakeland, FL
    I can't help what you saw, and those shots are plenty definitive. They may not satisfy you, but they are the best you can expect...the lighting and positioning wasn't exactly ideal for taking the clearest shots.

    If you think it's "being a jerk" to know the facts and be certain of them. Frankly, I think I've been terribly civil about the whole thing, considering how ridiculous and unsupported the conspiracyt assertions are.
     
  7. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    6,982
    2,521
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Lakeland, FL
    You do have a rational reason to believe the facts and believe what you saw. It doesn't take an emotional reason to believe the facts, it takes an emotional reason to deny them.
     
  8. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    6,982
    2,521
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Lakeland, FL
    Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=6#flight77debris
     
    padre31 likes this.
  9. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

    35,073
    25,542
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    I do not know what you are trying to say here. You showed two pictures that weren't obvious and then try to jump down my throat saying that they are obvious.
     
  10. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    6,982
    2,521
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Lakeland, FL
    No one is jumping down your throat. And the piece of airplane with the American Airlines marking is pretty freaking obvious.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2008
  11. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

    35,073
    25,542
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    if I WANTED to see it I could. If I wanted it to be an American Airlines I could see it. If I WANTED to believe that sasquach exists I could show photo evidence of him as well.
     
  12. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    6,982
    2,521
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Lakeland, FL
    No, you could show me blurry photos that only one or two people had seen at the time they were taken. I can show you very clear photos that anyone who knows what they're talking about can recognize and that HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS of people saw at the time. You need to stop trying to put the onus on reality to prove itself to you and start being more skeptical of people like the ones who made the video, who want to say "No one has ever known the truth...until NOW, when WE will tell you the hidden truth!"
     
  13. inFINSible

    inFINSible Bad ministrator

    1,989
    918
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Well, one thing is for sure, we're not going to solve our differences so......since this is the religion and spirituality forum....let's move on...

    For only those that have watched the movie: What were your impressions of the paralells between the story of jesus and the roughly 30 other gods with the same or similar stories? and then in turn, how that related to the astrology that was all the rage at that time?

    I thought the the astrological comparisons were especially convincing. The way the "Three Kings" and the eastern star (Sirius) pointed to or "foretold" the birth of " our savior" by aligning exactly with the point on the horizon where the sun would begin to move the other direction after a 3 day "rest" during the winter solstice, marking the day that light would begin again to win the battle against darkness was what did it for me. It made it obvious that the back story of jesus had been done before.



    Of course these are part of the Pagan traditions that the Christians adopted in the interest of convincing more pagans to be a part of their new religion. I don't think anyone will dispute that so my question is this....If Christianity would adapt other legends or stories into their own in order to manipulate non-believers into following their religion, where does it stop?

    I know that whenever I talk to any religious people, I always feel my BS detector pinging wildly. I ask questions and then I feel like I'm led in circles and never really answered. Especially when most of the answers are based upon the teachings in question. so, IMO, the manipulation has never stopped.

    Here's a link to another thing I found on the intertubes....It's a comparison between the Egyptian god horus and jesus.....the graphs after a short scroll are especially helpful...http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm
     
  14. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    6,982
    2,521
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Lakeland, FL
    Most religions have adapted parts of older religions into their mythos. Christianity didn't adapt the story of Horus directly, but instead through Zoroastrianism, which the Jews became familiar with during the Persian captivity. There's nothing pernicious or conspiratorial about it, however...it's just the way things work.
     
  15. DevilFin13

    DevilFin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    8,480
    3,782
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    If the stories of the about the other gods and astrology were true then it casts a lot of doubt on the diviness of the Bible and Christianity. It doesn't change my view on things though. I don't get bogged down in whether Jesus was real and whether he is the actual son of God. The basic/core message is what is important.

    But when it comes to the specifics of the Bible and the different sects of Christianity and their desire to have those things dictate policy in the US then the details in this movie (if valid) become important to me. Even if we set aside the 1st Amendment, which they do anyways, they would have a long way to go to validify their beliefs on some sort of divine platform because the origin of them is too much in question.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2008
  16. Ludacris

    Ludacris Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    6,935
    3,458
    113
    Jan 8, 2008
    Here is a 9min video from youtube a friend sent me. It is related but it might be an excerpt of that movie. It looks like conspiracy theory but it's interesting nonetheless.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo
     
  17. Themole

    Themole Season Ticket Holder

    7,873
    1,594
    0
    Jan 4, 2008
    Palatka Fl.

    Most people that have read my post in the POFO know that I take very seriously the original ideals and principles of the founding fathers.

    I believe in guarding my freedoms jealously.

    I believe there was a conspiracy to bring our republic down. The reason I say "was" is because it's no longer a conspiracy, but a proven fact.

    Dr. Carroll Quigley, in "Tragedy and Hope, a History of the World in Our Times", states this very plainly. He says the reason for his expose' is because the cause had moved so far forward that there was nothing anyone could do to stop it.

    I believe they took control in 1913 through the passing of the Federal Reserve Act. They turned our monetary system into monopoly money, they have polluted our universities with liberal anti American professors of economics and journalism, they have entangled us in the affairs of other nations, they have bound us to Treaties detrimental to the U.S. Constitution, They have undermined that sacred document through the appointment of anti liberty judges interpreting law for the sole purpose of creating their beloved New World Order and merging The United States, Canada and Mexico. Creating the NAU.

    Damn right, I believe in the conspiracies. Anyone who doesn't, isn't doing their due diligence as a believer in Liberty to at least investigate it. There are just too many things wrong in our nation indicating we have strayed far from the principles we were founded upon.
     
    DOLPHAN1 likes this.
  18. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito. Club Member

    35,073
    25,542
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    So I should just blindly accept what you tell me, just not what other people tell me.
     
  19. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    6,982
    2,521
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Lakeland, FL
    You should accept things for which there is ample evidence and reject things for which there is no support but baseless assertions. You should stop being more skeptical about things which are supported by ample evidence than you are about things that have no support but baseless assertions.
     
  20. inFINSible

    inFINSible Bad ministrator

    1,989
    918
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Moleman, I'm going to be busy this weekend but i would love to talk more about this with you.....very interested.

    I hope we're still buds even though I'm a nut case. :lol:
     
  21. Themole

    Themole Season Ticket Holder

    7,873
    1,594
    0
    Jan 4, 2008
    Palatka Fl.


    BFF, inFINS.
     
  22. Vendigo

    Vendigo German Gigolo Club Member

    7,723
    5,683
    113
    Nov 30, 2007

    That's the fundamental flaw (and bait) of conspiracy theories: They rest upon things that don't seem to make sense, stuff that seems odd, coincidences that seem a little bit too coincidental. The problem is: There's literally no historic event that isn't full of things that don't seem to make sense and coincidences that seem a little bit too coincidental. The proponents of conspiracy theories operate under the assumption that the very existence of these coincidences suggest that there's something fishy about the whole thing. However, the opposite is true: It would be very fishy if there weren't a lot of gaping logical holes in an event of the scale of 9/11. That's, by the way, why opponents of conspiracy theories tilt at windmills when trying to provide logical explanations for everything - it's quite simply impossible and strengthens the position of the proponents.

    Take a look at any historical event with the ramifications of 9/11. You'll find "plot holes" a plenty. The assumption that there are no coincidences is a popular misconception that every good historian would pick apart in no time at all. In general, I'd advise to apply good old Occam's razor: Don't look for the perfect explanation (because it doesn't exist) but for the one taking the fewest assumptions. In the case of 9/11 that's the official version. If a conspiracy theoriest came along with a better theory, I'd be all ear. But the thing with the conspiracy theorists is that they don't provide theories - they poke holes. That's a legitimate thing to do of course but a rather pointless exercise if there isn't a better theory at the end than the one you've just poked holes into.

    To get back to your original point: Yes, it does seem odd that the building would fall that way. But I'll happily ascribe it to coincidence because the alternative would be to take a whole bunch of completely unproven assumptions. I generally prefer to think horses, not zebras.
     
  23. DevilFin13

    DevilFin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    8,480
    3,782
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Well said. Plus there is the fact that someone would have needed to plant some sort of explosives or do whatever they have to do in order to prepare the building to be taken down. How they did that without anyone seeing it is just as beyond me as how it fell. So I think you're right that you have to go with the one with the fewest assumptions.
     
    Themole likes this.
  24. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    6,982
    2,521
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Lakeland, FL
  25. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

    72,252
    43,680
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    I just watched it.

    I just read the entire thread too.

    First, thank you, Infins. It took some orbs of short and curlies to post this knowing the overwhelming conservative nature of these, the nether forums.

    Secondly, to Rick...:rolleyes: Your continued arrogant tacts with which you lurk these boards, while impressive for its sheer obliviousness, is ultimately grating. Your views and outlooks may even be ultimately right, however, your approach is akin to Michael Moore, Rush Limbaugh, and others, and because of that your message becomes diluted. Case in point, you blast the maker of the film, by accusing he uses no sources, yet, the truth is, he uses more sources to state his opinion then you do yours. So, instead of listening to your message, I'm busy awash in your hypocrisy.

    That leads me to the real issue going on here...dilution.

    By that I mean, for example, I've read on this board alone many posts arguing if debris was from a missile, plane or bus, yet precious little to the overall theme of what did our government actually do or not do. We can argue all day and night, if jet fuel can burn hot enough to melt steel enough for the buildings to collapse they way they did, but it is really irrelevant, to finding out why, inarguably, the government failed on such monumental level to prevent this. They did fail. The real question here is why.

    It seems there are two camps on this. The one camp claims that it was a conspiracy. The other claims that proper safety measures were not in place. The problem is, neither explanation is a reason for optimism. If the conspiracies are true than our government is corrupt. If the the other camp is true, then our system doesn't work, and we need to take the liberties our country was founded upon away, by way of the Patriot Act. They both suggest we live in a lie.

    Considering our President is still elected by the Electoral College and our congressmen are propped up by PACs and lobbyists, and with the corporate welfare systems that are in place, it is not hard to envision that our leaders are corrupt. In fact, saying otherwise, smacks of romanticism. The real question is, how corrupt are they regardless of party line?

    As for the Part 1 of the movie...That is all easily verifiable as true. Some may view the Christian "cribbing" of other religions as merely propaganda to convert the uneducated masses. Others see it as another (in a long line) of lies and fabrications, that are sold off as "The Truth". I also get that same feeling of romanticism, with those that think the former.

    The reality of all of this is, the answers, probably, lie somewhere in the middle. But the day we stop, looking at opposing view points, whether we'll ever know the real answers or not, is the day we lose. Its the day we become slaves to the person directly above us on whatever scale is around and being used to judge. That to me was the real underlying point of this movie...think for yourself, before someone else does it for you. To me, letting go of your ability to think for yourself, is the true epitome of evil. After all, its not a far leap from being a LAMB of a god, to FLOCKING to watch the news and its advertisers, to being a SHEEP who doesn't think beyond the HERD.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2008
    DevilFin13 likes this.
  26. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

    53,351
    23,020
    0
    Dec 7, 2007
    From what I read alot of it is half truths.
     
  27. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

    72,252
    43,680
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Like?
     
  28. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,465
    37,345
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Alright Finascious, I'll bite, you've posted all over this particular subforum, yet you do not claim to believe that there is a God, so what exactly is on your mind?
     
  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

    72,252
    43,680
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Um...not sure what you're asking...
     
  30. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,465
    37,345
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    What is your itch, why are you hanging out here?
     
  31. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

    72,252
    43,680
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    What is so weird about me being here? I'm here because I like discussion about these topics, isn't that why you're here? Or did I intrude on a club of all like minded people?
     
  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,465
    37,345
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    Well, it is a bit funny that you have no belief in God of any stripe, and yet here you are, are you here to discuss Religion or Faith?
     
  33. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh Club Member

    72,252
    43,680
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Why? I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I really don't understand the big deal. You guys aren't just sitting around comparing gods, you're talking about relevant, current events that involve religion. As a non-believer why should that not interest me too. I'm here to discuss all of it. Religion, faith, spirituality. It almost appears that you have a problem with me being here. Have you questioned other non-believers that have posted in, not only in this sub-forum, but specifically, this thread?

    Is it really any "funnier" then you being a believer, yet you have an avatar glorifying the Devil?
     
  34. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,465
    37,345
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts

    The guy with the Christ Died for our Dunken Donuts avatar wonders why i would be curious about his pariticipation?

    The title of the song that goes along with the Avatar is "Purgatory", make from it what you will.
     
  35. Themole

    Themole Season Ticket Holder

    7,873
    1,594
    0
    Jan 4, 2008
    Palatka Fl.

    That's really not a bad place to be. That's about where I am, and believe me, I'm as big a conspiracy theorist as there is. I absolutely believe there are organizations that have infiltrated our government, our universities, religious institutions for the sole purpose of bringing our Constitution down and merging us into a one world government.

    Best advice...prove all things as best you can and ALWAYS GUARD your Liberty Jealously!

    Edit: BTW, I do not believe the U.S. Government had anything to do with the events of 911.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2008
    DevilFin13 likes this.
  36. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    6,982
    2,521
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Lakeland, FL
    Let me assure you that, if I found myself worried about what faceless pixels on the internet thought of me or how I presented my opinions, I believe I would check myself into a psycho ward.

    I believe what I believe and I present it how I present it. If it offends you, ignore it. Or don't. Either way, I don't particularly care.
     
  37. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

    53,351
    23,020
    0
    Dec 7, 2007
    off the top of my head the josephus writing which they state as being a known fraud is in actuality a disputed writing. The rest I don't remember right now.
     
  38. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

    99,465
    37,345
    0
    Nov 22, 2007
    inching to 100k posts
    And even then, if the disputed writing is not considered, Josephus's account of James Brother of Jesus death is not in dispute, so even "if" weight is given to the dispute, it does not erase the other account of Christ and the Church's existence...
     
  39. unluckyluciano

    unluckyluciano For My Hero JetsSuck

    53,351
    23,020
    0
    Dec 7, 2007
    yup just read that ;)
     
  40. Rick 1966

    Rick 1966 Professional Hipshooter

    6,982
    2,521
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Lakeland, FL
    The whole idiotic movie reminds me of a commentary I once read about Zecharia Sitchin's silly Annunaki books...something about how the linguists the reviewer talked to said that Sitchin's linguistic analysis was bunk, but they found his science impressive...whereas the scientists the reviewer talked to said that Sitchin's science was horrible, but they found his linguistics impressive.
    Same in this case. The people who know the facts about 9-11 say "well, but the religious stuff is interesting," and the people who know the religious facts are bunk say "well, but the 9-11 stuff is intriguing," and those who are aware that both of those parts are nonsense say "well, the stuff about the banks is interesting..."
    :lol:
     

Share This Page