1. Jackson is a restricted FA.
The Chargers have the benefit of matching any offers to Jackson or having draft-pick compensation. The pick(s) should be saved as a player of Jackson's "potential" could whisk away at least one high pick and possibly a player in the trade. Miami might be able to afford to trade away a pick, but not for this guy. He is also going to want a payday. Pass.
2. He has only recently become a "star".
He was set to compete for the starting position in 2007 until the Chargers released Keenan McCardell and lost Eric Parker to a season-ending toe injury giving Jackson the starting position by default. Stats of his first year starting? 623 yards and 3 TDs.
His "breakout year" of 2008 proved better, but he still barely mustered over 1,000 yards and caught 7 of Phillip Rivers' 34 TDs. Gates caught more.
Then we have last year, where he had 1167 yards and 9 TDs. Outstanding numbers, but there was a 4-game stretch in the latter part of last year where he was virtually invisible (I know, he was a starter on my FF team). He has been largely inconsistent his entire career. What makes that change with second-year starting QB and an offense predicated by the run game?
He had six games (out of fifteen played in '09) of 4 catches or less resulting in a 2.833 catch average for 249 total yards (41.5 YPG) and 1 TD overall. That's 40% of his 2009 season. He did not even get his first regular season 100 yard game until the sixth game of his 4th season!
He also only has 3 multi-TD games in his career (including playoffs). All three were two-TD games.
He is a legitimate downfield threat, but one has to wonder if he is valued more because of his size and potential or his actual on-field play?
3. The guy is a tool.
He was on probation for a DUI in 2008 and gets arrested in 2009 FOR??? Another DUI! Nice. So what does he do in January of 2010? He decides to take a drive with a suspended license in a vehicle with expired tags and plays his boom-box loud enough to warrant getting pulled over by authorities. Real smart guy here.
Another smart move (same day as boombastic arrest!): Getting flagged for unsportsmanlike conduct in the 4th quarter of a crucial playoff game for kicking a Jets challenge flag back towards Rex Ryan. He should have gone for the hat trick and slapped his girlfriend around after the game. Maybe he has but we just don't know it yet.....
His other Mensa moment came against the Raiders in 2006 when he caught a pass from Phillip Rivers, fell to the ground untouched, and flip/spins the ball forward to signify his coolness for all of the world to see. Fabian Washington picks up the ball thinking it is a fumble. Fortunately for the Chargers, it was ruled an illegal forward pass.
4. Miami is not a receiver away.
This has been mulled over more times than I choose to count. But it's true. A nice receiver will help, but it won't 'Super' help.
5. He is not the real Vincent Jackson.
Bo knows the real "Vincent Jackson", and it ain't Vincent Jackson.
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gunn34, MikeHoncho, unluckyluciano and 3 others like this.
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Admit it, you all LOL'd like me when he kicked that challenge flag.
I like Jackson and he is just what Henne needs, a big receiver but it's a long shot to begin with. If they can make it happen though I would be ecstatic.Colmax, Puka-head, LandShark13 and 3 others like this. -
Ok, so he's had 16 TDs in the past 2 years, and youre hating on him? We dont have a WR with 4 TDs in the past 2 years combined.
gunn34, Pagan, Uncle Rico and 4 others like this. -
So now we're comparing him to Randy Moss? Most pale in comparison.
So you don't have faith in Henne? Philip Rivers is the only one who can make Vincent Jackson a good WR?texanphinatic and jetssuck like this. -
finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member
If he's attainable at a fair price I'd go for it. He would be a #1 receiver here and provide Henne with a big play threat that we desperately need. Receivers usually take 3 years or so to reach their potential in the NFL, its not surprising or unusual that it took him a few years to start putting up big numbers. His off the field antics are a concern but if the front office does their homework and thinks he's worth the risk I'm on board.
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Well we're not a LB, FS, NT and etc "away" either.......but like WR, we damn sure all of those to be "Super".
If you wanna see Henne take any kind of step forward at all, then it's crucial.
If you're looking at a two year plan to be seriously competitive, WR should be the first piece on the list. I'd rather plug in other positions next year and this year have Henne getting comfortable with his new targets....
If anyone is of the WR/TE is not a need or not as important as other positions camp......then keep your expectations for our passing game rather low. Because you're going to see very little improvement. And by the end of the season, we still won't really know exactly what we have in Henne.steveincolorado and texanphinatic like this. -
Seems to me like most receivers who are successful are successful with the team who drafted them, not later teams they are traded to or signed by AFTER they have already had some success.
Now, occasionally a receiver who still hasn;t had a big year will change teams/scenery and do well. Greg Camarillo, for example.
otherwise, it's all about getting them through the draft, then patiently waiting three years as they learn the trade.
PLease feel free to change my mind. It would give me hope.Puka-head and azfinfanmang like this. -
I am only using the comparison as an example. As some who are frothing over this guy, I feel like this behavior unwarranted. He is not going to be worth the asking price.
Henne is not Phillip Rivers. And it should not be Vincent Jackson who helps Henne progress. Jackson is a detriment to himself, and ultimately, to his team. He is selfish. Not that Miami should be overly protective of Henne, but I feel that, for the asking price, Jackson is not worth the headache.
Do you agree that he is going to get paid, and paid well? Let's hope it is not in Miami. -
You are taking this all wrong. Of course I want Henne to progress. I just hope it is without Vincent Jackson.
This thread has NOTHING to do with Henne except for my pointing out the type of offense Miami runs and that Henne is a 2nd year QB.
It will not be the end of the world if Vincent Jackson does not get the opportunity to drink and drive around South Beach. -
What's a fair price? A 2nd rounder and a large contract to boot? He is going to get paid, and I have a feeling A.J. Smith is going to let him go. Why? Because A.J. Smith, much like our regime, does not like headache players. Jackson has definitely been a headache.
I will give you the "few years to develop" argument, but not all receivers take that long to thrive. Are you willing to give Ted Ginn, Jr. another two years?
Why overpay for a receiver who has been highly inconsistent?JimToss likes this. -
The ONLY reason not to go after Vincent Jackson is because of the price in draft picks.
rafael likes this. -
1) Plaxico Burress was a star with the Giants. Far better than he was on the Steelers
2) Randy Moss had his best season with the Pats
3) Wes Welker shined greater with the Pats than the Fins
4) Braylon Edwards needed out of Cleveland to be relevant again and with a rookie QB in Sanchez
5) Terrel Owens was great on SF, then great on Philly, and had a great season or 2 on Dallas
These were off the top of my head -
I agree with you, but the three years is hard to take. That is too long for our situation. The Ted Ginn experiment, which Parcells decided to continue, it looks like will hold back this team now for at least 2 if not 3 more years, if we follow the draft and learn plan. Bad gamble for Parcells and for Sparano. I believe Ross will get ansty and pull the trigger, with his friend Carl Petersen in his ear after next season if we are not in the playoffs.
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I want Miles Austin....he represents everything this team is, a TRUE Parcells guy.
MikeHoncho, Eop05 and DolfanJake like this. -
Irving Fryar had arguably his best year with Miami after leaving New England (granted he had Marino).
Most times teams don't let an elite WR walk in FA. Not in their primes anyway. It happens occasionally, but it's rare unless the guy is knucklehead, as most of the guys on your list are.
Why can't we wait until next year when Jackson is a UFA? We don't need to sell the farm for this season IMO. -
Colmax, I must say great thread.
Tough coming out here and knocking down many people's shining light.
I am with you completely on this. I just plain do not trust Jackson. Inconsistency on and off the football field.
There is no doubt about he is a very good football player. However, he is helped by the situation he is in. As well as he helps to allow that situation. It is really hard to disconnect WR, QB, and Offensive style, because they all feed of each other.
I love that Jackson is truly a homerun threat. Phillip throws the ball up and this guy comes down with it. SD offense is also predicated on that exact situation.
I just do not beleive the guy is worth this gamble. He will be tendured as high as possible, as well as getting a very large contract. I personally just do not believe he is worth the risk.
I would be quicker to pull this exact trigger on Marshall or Boldin.MikeHoncho and Colmax like this. -
He's a solid player but deff not my first choice. I really think there are better options out there, even in the draft.
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Adding to the above list:
Irving Fryar was already mentioned.
Derrick Mason was great for Baltimore after leaving Tenn.
Santana Moss has been as good or better in Washington.
Antonio Bryant was at least as successful in TB as he was at any of his other stops.
Javon Walker in his 1st year outside of GB was very good (iirc), until he got hurt which would've hurt him in GB too (that is what hurt him in his last year there I believe).
Kevin Walter has been way better in Houston than he was in Cincy.
Keyshawn was productive in Tampa and Dallas.
Terry Glenn was pretty much as good in GB and Dallas as he was in NE overall.
Joey Galloway was better in TB than he was in Dallas, and probably as good as he was in Seattle.
Jerry Rice was very good in Oakland.
Henry Ellard was very good in Washington vs his time in StL.
Mike Furrey was very good in Detroit vs STL where he really didn't even play WR.
Bryant Johnson has been pretty much as good outside of AZ as he was in it (the change in passing chances would be the main reason for a drop in #'s).
Tony Martin was very good in SD compared to his time in Miami (the 1st time).
Terance Mathis was much better in Atlanta than he ever was for the NYJ.
Cris Carter was way better (or more productive) in Minny than he was in Philly.
Joe Horn had waaay more success in NO than he did in KC.
Rob Moore was as good or better in AZ than he was in NYJ.
Keenan McCardell was amazing in Jax and pretty good in TB even, while he didn't do hardly anything in Cleveland where he started.
Jimmy Smith was amazing in JAX and he did nothing in Dallas before that (or possibly the 2 seasons before 95). -
i agree with the whole post about passing on v jackson but i especially agree on this particular statement.
if you go and give away a first and a third for one player who isnt necessarily all that spectacular you will be throwing away the process and philosophy for how this team is still being built
i am glad parcells isnt as impatient as some of you on this board
no one really seems to care about the defense and the need there is on that side of the ball
we gave up 400 gad damn points last season
does this not mean anything as long as you go out and give up your future for a big name overated wr
the thought process of some of the fans here at this board is baffling -
Unfortunately, the same can pretty much be said about all the FA WRs this year as most are RFA anyway. with that said, if you're gonna screw the pooch, at least go for Marshall.
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That was not my intention at all. I am merely trying to make a point, albeit, an unpopular one.
With that, I think he is a helluva player. But in this particular situation, I just do not think he would be the right fit for Miami. The money, the stats, team makeup, draft picks, and the history just do not add up for me to want this guy on the team.
If he did come to Miami, I would hope he is changed and succeeds, but I am with you in that I just do not think he is worth the gamble. Even Anquan scares me a little. He has only started a full season twice in his seven years in the league.
From a pure field standpoint, I like Marshall. But this guy comes with as much baggage as any.
Let's look at Jackson's YAC in 2009: 3.4 (with a 3.3 YAC career avg)
Boldin's YAC in 2009: 4.5 (with a 5.3 YAC career avg)
Marshall's YAC in 2009: 5.2 (with a 5.0 YAC career avg)
Jackson also only had 68 receptions last year (in a very potent offense).
Marshall had 101 last year, and is averaging 102+ over the past three years.
Boldin had 84.
IMO, this guy is a one-trick pony. Throw the ball deep and he catches it, which is exactly what you want, but he is nothing else outside of that. He is not as dynamic as say, a Marshall; who can run a short route and take it home.
85% of Jackson's 68 receptions were for first downs, which is good, right? It really is excellent. But it tells me that he is only relied upon to go deep, which is further implied by his YAC. His YAC really is not that impressive. Hell, Hartline had a 5.6.
Does Miami really a guy who is this one-dimensional? No doubt he could help, but if they have him covered (which has happened), we're back to dink and dump, and he really does not help. He also, at times, loses concentration and drops key balls.
I really just do not feel Miami should go for a guy who can only be relied on in the deep passing game. Henne needs more than a deep threat. He needs a legitimate wideout who can catch the short stuff, but can go long at any point in the game; a true multi-dimensional receiver. Jackson is far from that.JimToss likes this. -
The "knocking down the shining light comment" was a bit off base. What I basically meant is that a lot of people are excited about Jackson, and I do not believe there is any chance the Dolphins move on him, for the reasons you have listed.
Great follow up post. My exact feelings, nicely written, and thanks for the thought put into it.Colmax likes this. -
If you don't like or want the guy that's fine, but statement about not being a WR away is ridiculous. WR is a core position. It is not some finishing touch. That's almost as bad as saying you'll pass on a QB b/c it's not the final piece.
Fortunately the team knows this. Ireland listed WR as a core position and specifically said this team wanted to get a #1 WR. -
Honestly, it was a stretch for me, but I had to have 5 reasons. Just sounds better than 3 or 4 reasons.
You are absolutely correct in saying that WR is a key position for a productive offense. With that, it is nowhere near the importance of having a QB. Not even "almost as bad". QBs make wideouts look good all of the time. Does Austin Collie have the same year in St. Louis' offense?
In saying that Miami "needs" a true number one, we're conceding that Henne cannot put this team on his shoulders.
I, for one, have faith in Henne..... -
It has nothing to do with my faith in Henne. I actually think very highly of him.
The reason that it's almost as bad is b/c WR is the second most correlated position among SB winning teams. Meaning that 95% of SB winning teams had pro bowl QBs and +70% (I can't remember the exact number but 77% sounds right) had at least one pro bowl WR. Many actually had more than one. After that the correlation dropped. Meaning there are lots of ways to win it all but you have almost no shot without a QB and almost no shot without a WR. -
Can you support that with a link?
Look, I am with you in that I think Miami needs a number one. But bringing in Jackson (in particular), does not get Miami any closer in competing for that championship because I do not think he's the right type of receiver for Henne or this offense. Jackson is simply too one-dimensional. -
Here what stood out me:
A DUI in 2008?
Another DUI in 2009?
Driving with suspended licence 2010?
Hes not a tool; hes a moron. A stupid moron at that.
Hes gets that third strike on South Beach and hes a guest of the state for 30 days plus Rodger will have to suspend his moronic arse for 12 months.
A drunken FA on Party Central; no thanks. -
I don't remember if you're a club member but if you are do a search for SB winners and correlated positions in the club. It was done over several posts.
I'm not sold on Jackson's value myself. I actually think Marshall, Boldin and Austin are better fits. I just had an issue with the one reason. -
Youre very correct. Now that we know the strengths of our QB we must find WRs that fit him accordingly. He needs at least one guy that can stretch the feild so thats a need we must fufill this offseason. -
Say Jackson was indeed a one-dimensional player.
But what to do when that dimension is the one you've been missing?
For 7 years we've tried to find a big WR. A guy dangerous in the red zone. For 15 years we've searched for a deep threat. Jackson seems to be both.
The number of receptions doesn't alarm me. Norv runs a dynamic offense that spreads the ball around but also emphasizes the deep pass. Quality over quantity.
Jackson 'only' had 68 catches, but that was still second-most on the team (the leader was a probable Hall of Famer named 'Gates'). And he averaged 17.2 ypc and caught 9 TD's. In 2008 it was 18.6 and 7 TD's. It's true Jackson's not a YAC guy and probably never will be. But he's also the size of some tight ends. We saw what that size did when he caught that bomb over Sean Smith despite blanket coverage last year.
Ironically, you'll never guess who was the league's #1 WR last year according to Pro Football Focus.
http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_...e=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1
Charlie Casserly put him in the Top 10 as well.
He has the age and durability advantage over Boldin. Jackson has never missed a game. I think we all agree that Marshall is the more dynamic player. Miles Austin would probably have been the #1 guy on the list. But Jackson is probably the most likely to be available, and even that's not assured.
The knucklehead stuff is a valid concern and probably 'the' reason why he's the most likely to be had.
I'm not necessarily 'sold' on him being the guy for us. Just being contrarian for the sake of discussion. ;)DeDolfan likes this. -
I appreciate the site.
I really do not understand the correlation of PFF's ratings vs the actual numbers a player gets. I mean, his YPC is impressive, no doubt. But with respect to everything else, Miles Austin has superior numbers in everything else except dropped passes (Austin has one more) and YPC (17.2 vs 16.3).
It seems as though PFF takes too much into account the run, blocking, and penalty ratings into their equation. Hell, they have Marshall all the way down at 32. Jackson also only has 3 missed tackles to his credit. A player used similarly (Robert Meachem) has 7 with 23 less passes caught.
Hell, looking deeper into it, they have his one catch for 10 yard and zero TD performance ranked 4th of his overall ratings, beefed up because of his run blocking (at least from what I see)??? His overall rating for that week was higher than his 5 catch/58 yds/2 TD game against the Giants? Does not make much sense to me. (Link: HERE).
I am sorry, but I just do not see how PFF gets its ratings. I get rating how a player blocks, but if they rate a one-catch/10 yd/0 TD performance higher than a five-catch/58 yd/2 TD performance game, something is off.
I just go by what I see..... -
Nah, don't have the 'Members Only' jacket.
I would definitely be interested (if it's possible to cut/paste) in checking those stats out.
It's cool calling me out like that. Trust me, I really stretched for that one, but in my heart of hearts, I think Henne can make a WR corps better, if not, have a Pro-Bowl alternate worthy player come from the mix we have. I think Henne has what it takes to lift this team on his shoulders and take over games. JMO. -
I'll see if it can find it for you, but I don't have time right now. :up:
And I love Henne. I just think a big target or two (WR and a TE) would make his job much easier.LandShark13 likes this. -
paying a 1st rd pick for Jackson is overpaying ...
his gift is his size, not his speed ...
could he help this team, surely ... but i would not pay him #1 type $$$ to come to MIA
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