Arian Foster talks about being an openly non-religious NFL player

"Ohiophinphan wrote:

He made assumptions about the nature of God. He made assumptions about what belief, faith, and practice either should be or what they mean. I suppose one could say he simply said what he believed but I would argue that such statements of belief are inherently assumptions. When I make a statement about God or faith or Christianity there is an entire set of dogmatic assumptions behind what I say. Foster has done the same thing and that is where I would start my discussion with him. There is nothing sinister in that, just honest disagreement over base positions.

So, you want to correct his beliefs. This is one of the issues that I think comes up with atheism, and why what he is doing is important. What sort of reaction would I get if I stated that I wanted to correct Tebow's assumptions, and explain why God doesn't exist, on a thread about his beliefs and his missionary work? I'm not trying to debate God with you here. I'm trying to make a point about how athiest beliefs are treated vs how religious beliefs are treated.

"Mcduffie81 wrote:

Thank you! My attempts to express how I feel are not nearly as polished. Everything you've said I agree with.

Thank you. As you might suspect, my being a parish pastor means I spend a fair amount of time in discussion like this. I have served on the governing board of my denomination and such arguments were often underlying much of what we did.

If I could offer counsel to anyone who holds any strong position it would be to at least admit to yourself with all humility that "hey, I might be wrong!"

Martin Luther has a quote that we should "Sin Boldly!". The quote is well known though the context is often lost. Luther was trying to argue that ultimately we study things and we reason an argue what may be a right answer but ultimately one has to trust their position is correct and move forward. If it is wrong, we can always face God in judgement and ask for forgiveness.

"Ohiophinphan wrote:

OK, I now understand your question in its context.

I think you can see from my answers that I did not nor do I use the word "assumption" as code for negativity. I am using it as a term for the basic underlying structures and beliefs behind an argument or position a person is making.

I realize that, however the first time I read your post I had a negative reaction. I was about to write a reply, however I decided to read it again and see why I had the negative reaction.

It came from the word assumption. At first glace to me that was a way to discount his personal experiences and claiming he was ignorant on the subject.

Reading over again, I concluded that was probably not what you meant. Which is why I decided to share my experience with you.

"Two Tacos wrote:

So, you want to correct his beliefs. This is one of the issues that I think comes up with atheism, and why what he is doing is important. What sort of reaction would I get if I stated that I wanted to correct Tebow's assumptions, and explain why God doesn't exist, on a thread about his beliefs and his missionary work? I'm not trying to debate God with you here. I'm trying to make a point about how athiest beliefs are treated vs how religious beliefs are treated.

I am not sure we are on different sides of this but let me try answering you this way.

Foster is putting into the public arena an argument about the nature of belief/disbelief and calling for tolerance and understanding. Fine. But by putting such a position out there he is inherently making an argument which should be subject to honest debate.

He suggests it is (curious?, foolish?, silly? I am not sure what word he would use?) that fellow players believe God takes an interest in their games when in Foster's mind, that if a god exists he should be worried about starving children, etc.

I would ask Foster what it is he doesn't believe in? I don't believe in the god he suggest either. I would want to know what if anything he does believe in?

I will freely admit that Christianity (along with Islam) has a proselytizing component which is basic to the faith. It is that history which has caused rhetoric and apologetics to have arisen out of religious contexts. Therefore when someone makes a religious claim, even if it to be non religious, Christians will feel compelled to debate. That it should be done honestly and respectfully, should go with out saying but alas such is not the case. With that history I can certainly understand why folks such as you and perhaps Foster find even a discussion of your positions to feel like attacks.

O and I think Tim Tebow would welcome such a debate. In fact it happens it seems with great regularity. As I said Christianity at its core is about proselytizing and thus debate is always with us.

"Ohiophinphan wrote:

I am not sure we are on different sides of this but let me try answering you this way.

Foster is putting into the public arena an argument about the nature of belief/disbelief and calling for tolerance and understanding. Fine. But by putting such a position out there he is inherently making an argument which should be subject to honest debate.

He suggests it is (curious?, foolish?, silly? I am not sure what word he would use?) that fellow players believe God takes an interest in their games when in Foster's mind, that if a god exists he should be worried about starving children, etc.

I would ask Foster what it is he doesn't believe in? I don't believe in the god he suggest either. I would want to know what if anything he does believe in?

I will freely admit that Christianity (along with Islam) has a proselytizing component which is basic to the faith. It is that history which has caused rhetoric and apologetics to have arisen out of religious contexts. Therefore when someone makes a religious claim, even if it to be non religious, Christians will feel compelled to debate. That it should be done honestly and respectfully, should go with out saying but alas such is not the case. With that history I can certainly understand why folks such as you and perhaps Foster find even a discussion of your positions to feel like attacks.

O and I think Tim Tebow would welcome such a debate. In fact it happens it seems with great regularity. As I said Christianity at its core is about proselytizing and thus debate is always with us.

Saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" gets labeled as an attack on Christmas. My point wasn't Tebow's reaction, but the general reaction to me using his faith to push my agenda in a thread here. This is why Foster coming out, so to speak, is important, and why others being dissmive is disappointing.

Proselytizing is not necessarily the same as debate. Lecturing is not conversation. The distinction between the two is often lost by those pushing their faith. I understand why you say your faith, (I'm not sure what word to use here, requires? encourages?) debate through proselytizing, but in my experience, the form the proselytizing usually takes is a lecture not a dabate. Let me state now that in my enteractions with you, this has not been the case. I'm not sure if you, not being an atheist, realize how rare that is.

"Two Tacos wrote:

Saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" gets labeled as an attack on Christmas. My point wasn't Tebow's reaction, but the general reaction to me using his faith to push my agenda in a thread here. This is why Foster coming out, so to speak, is important, and why others being dissmive is disappointing.

Proselytizing is not necessarily the same as debate. Lecturing is not conversation. The distinction between the two is often lost by those pushing their faith. I understand why you say your faith, (I'm not sure what word to use here, requires? encourages?) debate through proselytizing, but in my experience, the form the proselytizing usually takes is a lecture not a dabate. Let me state now that in my enteractions with you, this has not been the case. I'm not sure if you, not being an atheist, realize how rare that is.

Thank you for the very kind words. I am honored. You and indeed a number of folks in this particular forum have been very gracious to me.

Sadly I have to agree with you regarding the way the Christian faith is often proclaimed. A regular prayer I lift up to God is, "please protect me from the people on my side". Surely in some cases it is because of arrogance but more often than not it is simply because folks often have more enthusiasm than information. They mean well without thinking of the totality of their words' consequences.

I am sorry Foster's contact with Christians has been so negative for him. I think he has tapped into something even if he falls victim to some of the same stereotypes he regrets in others. We are all caught in that trap.

"Mcduffie81 wrote:

Try being religious in this day and age and see who deserves the pity.

No one needs pity. It's a stupid argument and I don't see the point of the article.

I started a new job. Second day. Driving with my new boss. 3 hours from home. Staying in a hotel. Trying to fit in. My boss turns down the radio and asks "are you religious?"

I am atheist.

Awkwardly and without trying to be jobless I tip toed around the question. I said I was raised Christian. I saw it do great things for my grandmother and tried to leave it at that.

"Do you tithe?"

*pull on my shirt collar*

"Tithing changed my life. Once I started tithing I made more money that I ever did. Give to God and he will return it to you"

Awkwardness.

Needless to say I don't work there anymore. It's not easy being a non-believer in North Carolina. Bible Belt. The folks I've told am atheist shunned me. Asked if I worshiped satan. Asked if my son was "alright". It's Pathetic I don't deserve to have that. I can't be myself on Facebook I'll lose friends. I can't be myself at work I may not get promotions I deserve or get treated different.

This "try being religious" sentiment is laughable. Give me a break.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wish I could say yours is a rare occurrence but again sadly it is not. The example of the tithing question is one of those situations where I wish Christians would shut up. Your boss may have understood correctly but made it sound to you like some magical talisman. Sad.

Saying you are an atheist in a strongly Christian area or declaring you are a person of faith in a secular area should not be hard but they both sadly are so.

I think both sides need to calm down and do the proverbial "treat others as you'd like to be treated." It comes down to respect to me.

"Two Tacos wrote:

Saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" gets labeled as an attack on Christmas. My point wasn't Tebow's reaction, but the general reaction to me using his faith to push my agenda in a thread here. This is why Foster coming out, so to speak, is important, and why others being dissmive is disappointing.

Proselytizing is not necessarily the same as debate. Lecturing is not conversation. The distinction between the two is often lost by those pushing their faith. I understand why you say your faith, (I'm not sure what word to use here, requires? encourages?) debate through proselytizing, but in my experience, the form the proselytizing usually takes is a lecture not a dabate. Let me state now that in my enteractions with you, this has not been the case. I'm not sure if you, not being an atheist, realize how rare that is.

Yes, being an athiest myself, I wish all my interactions with those with strong religious faiths were as good as those I have had with Ohiophinphan and my former college roommate (who was thankfully best man at my wedding too).

"unluckyluciano wrote:

I think both sides need to calm down and do the proverbial "treat others as you'd like to be treated." It comes down to respect to me.

NO!!!!!! You ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"unluckyluciano wrote:

I think both sides need to calm down and do the proverbial "treat others as you'd like to be treated." It comes down to respect to me.

I am assuming you mean this in the world around us. I would heartily agree with that.

In this thread, I think we are being passionate but respectful. It is hard when you have had a tough experience or experiences. Many have felt disrespected in their day to day lives.

In the Christian faith we talk about God's law as "being written on our hearts". To that we mean, God has imputed a moral code of right and wrong on all of us. I have seen folks who seem to have missed that printing but in general I see that as a broad based "rule". It is a reason, I believe, we find axioms such as "Love your neighbor as yourself" across most religious and secular dogmas. It is also why, I believe, we react so viscerally when someone rejects that as a way of life.

Love you Ohio !

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"SICK wrote:

I started a new job. Second day. Driving with my new boss. 3 hours from home. Staying in a hotel. Trying to fit in. My boss turns down the radio and asks "are you religious?"

I am atheist.

Awkwardly and without trying to be jobless I tip toed around the question. I said I was raised Christian. I saw it do great things for my grandmother and tried to leave it at that.

"Do you tithe?"

*pull on my shirt collar*

"Tithing changed my life. Once I started tithing I made more money that I ever did. Give to God and he will return it to you"

Awkwardness.

Needless to say I don't work there anymore. It's not easy being a non-believer in North Carolina. Bible Belt. The folks I've told am atheist shunned me. Asked if I worshiped satan. Asked if my son was "alright". It's Pathetic I don't deserve to have that. I can't be myself on Facebook I'll lose friends. I can't be myself at work I may not get promotions I deserve or get treated different.

This "try being religious" sentiment is laughable. Give me a break.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have had very similar experiences, Sick. I didn't quit or lose a job, but I did have my interactions with superiors change from warm and open to very cold and distant. It took me years and years to get to the point where some of my wife's family would accept me as a vaild husband to her. And I've dealt with the satan worshiper question too. Such nonsense. One former coworker insisted she was taught that anyone who wasn't christian worshiped the devil, and so I must be a liar. Was nasty to me after that the rest of the time she worked there.

I have been wearing a clerical collar and had parents pull children away from me and say out loud, "stay away from people like that, they're bad!" I have been treated as delusional. Someone once said, "Between you and me, you really know what you are doing is a dodge, right?"

No side's skirts are clean here and I think arguing who gets picked on more is unhelpful. Just my opinion. I choose to live my witness and try and respect folks wherever they are. I do not apologize for my faith or my calling. I just try and live it as best I can.

Sorry Ohio, I don't agree. You have people breaking down someones "attributes" for being a good employee, and "christian man" or "comes from a christian family" is used quite frequently to describe someone positively. You'll never hear someone want to hire my sister who is 18 to babysit and say "Shes young, comes from a big family, is atheist, we should hire her!"

Your job, or you getting a job won't be judged based on being religious, thats the "norm" far more than saying you don't believe or are agnostic/Atheist. jmo

"SICK wrote:

Sorry Ohio, I don't agree. You have people breaking down someones "attributes" for being a good employee, and "christian man" or "comes from a christian family" is used quite frequently to describe someone positively. You'll never hear someone want to hire my sister who is 18 to babysit and say "Shes young, comes from a big family, is atheist, we should hire her!"

Your job, or you getting a job won't be judged based on being religious, thats the "norm" far more than saying you don't believe or are agnostic/Atheist. jmo

For the record CiF would definitely hire your sister. Religious or not. 18 right?

SICK, if you are saying that atheists or agnostics face more discrimination or at least disdain than Christians do, then I concede that freely. You are sadly correct. My point was/is that it is not UNIVERSALY one way.

It should not be a factor, we should all evaluate folks on they treat us and the others around us but we take short cuts and for good or for evil, the public perception has been that adherence to the Christian faith comes with a catalog of benefits. That opinion is breaking down, far more rapidly than you might suspect, but it has and does exist.

As an aside, I have a close friend who would not use kids who attend Christian schools as babysitters because he was afraid they might try to indoctrinate his children. That view is rare and new but it does exist.

Did all of you see the episode of BIG BANG where Sheldon and Leonard's mothers got into it? Leonard's mother was dismissive of Sheldon's Mom for believing her "myths" and her simple minded "delusions". Sheldon's Mom suggested Leonard's Mom was a ice princess without human feelings or compassion. It was funny at least in part because it focused on the stereotypes folks apply to people on the other side of an issue they hold dear.

But in short, SICK, yes, it is far more likely that a Christian will dismiss an atheist than the other way around. The gap is closing but it is still there.

"Stitches wrote:

Yes, being an athiest myself, I wish all my interactions with those with strong religious faiths were as good as those I have had with Ohiophinphan and my former college roommate (who was thankfully best man at my wedding too).

Totally agreed. If everyone was as articulate, understanding and respectful as Ohiophinphan (whatever their religious stance) this world would be a better place.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

"SICK wrote:

I started a new job. Second day. Driving with my new boss. 3 hours from home. Staying in a hotel. Trying to fit in. My boss turns down the radio and asks "are you religious?"

I am atheist.

Awkwardly and without trying to be jobless I tip toed around the question. I said I was raised Christian. I saw it do great things for my grandmother and tried to leave it at that.

"Do you tithe?"

*pull on my shirt collar*

"Tithing changed my life. Once I started tithing I made more money that I ever did. Give to God and he will return it to you"

Awkwardness.

Needless to say I don't work there anymore. It's not easy being a non-believer in North Carolina. Bible Belt. The folks I've told am atheist shunned me. Asked if I worshiped satan. Asked if my son was "alright". It's Pathetic I don't deserve to have that. I can't be myself on Facebook I'll lose friends. I can't be myself at work I may not get promotions I deserve or get treated different.

This "try being religious" sentiment is laughable. Give me a break.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sick, respectfully, (I get a kick out of your posts) we both can go back and forth with experiences, and yes, on a secular level too. I NEVER said that non-believers faced no scrutiny. But the way I look at it, life isn't fair. I'm sure you've heard that at one time or another from someone looking out for you. It isn't right, but that's the reality of this world.

We all deal with some level of intolerance and injustices and if you're an adult, you learn how to deal with it and move on. Everyone (for lack of a better term) is so thin skinned, especially on the Internet or when there is some type of self promotion going on in this nation, and it's getting worse. I'm not saying Foster is guilty of either. I don't know him. I find the article just flat out annoying and it's not only because I'm a religous person.

What I DID say is that living a life or trying to "fit in" with others when you have high, and I should have said "bible based" morals, in a world with practically no morals, or very, very "tolerant" morals is harder than fitting in with people in a locker room and being looked at differently because you don't believe in God. I have been ostracized by family, friends etc , too. I DONT need a pity party, nor am I being a Martyr!

That is my personal opinion and I'm sorry that it looks like I've offended so many. That's not my intention. I don't have the same filter on the Internet as I do in real life.

"Mcduffie81 wrote:

Sick, respectfully, (I get a kick out of your posts) we both can go back and forth with experiences, and yes, on a secular level too. I NEVER said that non-believers faced no scrutiny. But the way I look at it, life isn't fair. I'm sure you've heard that at one time or another from someone looking out for you. It isn't right, but that's the reality of this world.

We all deal with some level of intolerance and injustices and if you're an adult, you learn how to deal with it and move on. Everyone (for lack of a better term) is so thin skinned, especially on the Internet or when there is some type of self promotion going on in this nation, and it's getting worse. I'm not saying Foster is guilty of either. I don't know him. I find the article just flat out annoying and it's not only because I'm a religous person.

What I DID say is that living a life or trying to "fit in" with others when you have high, and I should have said "bible based" morals, in a world with practically no morals, or very, very "tolerant" morals is harder than fitting in with people in a locker room and being looked at differently because you don't believe in God. I have been ostracized by family, friends etc , too. I DONT need a pity party, nor am I being a Martyr!

That is my personal opinion and I'm sorry that it looks like I've offended so many. That's not my intention. I don't have the same filter on the Internet as I do in real life.

These were your first two posts in this thread. They do not match the tone or content of this last post.

"Mcduffie81 wrote:

We gonna throw a pity party for all the non-religious people now?

"Mcduffie81 wrote:

Try being religious in this day and age and see who deserves the pity.

Surely, you can see how people would have been upset by what you said.

Had you posted then what you posted now, there'd have been no problem.

I take responsibility. I didn't expect to ruffle so many feathers!.....

"Unlucky 13 wrote:

Religion and morals often have nothing to do with one another. My wife is a devout Southern Baptist. She and I have a very similar set of values and morals, and that's one of the reasons that we've worked well as a couple for the past 11 years. She get's hers partially from what she's been taught in her church. Mine are just from my own self. Neither one or better or worse than the other.

Without a standard of morality that surpasses our own then who is to say whose morality is right or wrong.. for instance if I wanted to pleasure a goat some may view that as abhorrent (I do too btw) but whose to say that is wrong.. if there is no set standard for morality then why does this government A object to what is happening with government B over the way... or if one bunch of people are killing another bunch of people .. why do we care if our kids lie to us or our partner cheats on us.. there has to be a plumb line - a universal one at that.. and if there is then there has to be a moral law giver who is perfect in that standard... ergo God.. our morality does not come from ourselves as if it did there would be chaos as we all did what we felt like regardless of the consequences.

"Mcduffie81 wrote:

Anyone who has been on this site a while knows that you are ultra sensitive and love to debate and argue to the point that you've become a professional at it. You can't hide it from anyone. I don't make having arguments with people on message boards my hobby so forgive me for not being as good at it as you are.

My first post, as blunt as it was, was simply my frustration with how this Country and its media make everything and everyone seem so persecuted. My second post was a comparison at first, then last 2 sentences were edited in because I KNEW where this would go with you and I wanted to drop it. My third post was an explanation. I was not acting as a martyr. I said in so many words that people just need to deal with people treating them different for their beliefs as I have my whole life. My fourth post was in line with my first. I think its written to stir emotions and induce inflammatory discussions....which clearly it succeeded in doing.

I didn't insert myself into any conversation. There was none, until your radar went off.

"As an atheist I have been attacked by your kind for decades. I've been compared to a drug addicted thief simply because I was an atheist. I've been ostracized by members of family for being an atheist. In spite of all that, I still call for people to be respectful of faith discussions".

Does that qualify as acting like a martyr? Attacked by my "kind" what does that mean?

Frankly I disagree with Foster and if we met I would love an opportunity to "argue " his assumptions with him. Having said that I do agree with him regarding the simplistic understanding of faith that abound in culture. Dropping into sterotypes happens too quickly and by all sides.