http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/atheist.soldier/index.html
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Kind of scary tbh, cant believe this the U.S. military we're talking about here.
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That's not something that I like to hear. I seen it was a major story on cnn so maybe it will get some attention instead of being swept under the rug.
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DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box
wouldn't be the first time they were accused of that.
http://forums.thephins.com/showthread.php?t=7800 -
Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
This kind of story saddens me a many levels. The loss of faith is certainly sad and the fact that both his faith and later rejection seem to have been in semi or total isolation from a faith community is also deeply troubling.
I am also curious about the untold portion of the story. Did old friends feel betrayed and thus "harrassed" him? Did he become a vocal critic of the faith and caught flak from that? Why wasn't a transfer to another outfit where he could start over an option?
There is too much of this story untold and thus open to specualtion for my taste.dolphindebby and PMZQ like this. -
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Its sad but not surprising. So many times I see the term 'Freedom of Religion' apply only to those who believe in a God or religion.
I'll never understand why people get so upset at atheists. Does not believing in God threaten ones belief system to the point where they feel violence is necessary ?Firesole and MelbournePhin like this. -
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As far as the "freedom of religion" comment, the most damned and vilified religion in the country right now is Christianity. Everything that has been accepted as 'normal' for several centuries is being changed to the point that the Christian point of view is the one which is being challenged and proclaimed as no longer valid or worth considering, and nothing is said that about it that is not ridiculed by every other group trying to attain a superior status, but those other religious or irreligious groups beliefs are being supported in everything from law suits, real estate zoning decisions, to extracurricular club activities in school. Wiccan clubs, and alternative sexual support groups are allowed in school systems, but Bible clubs are not. It would seem that it depends on one's point of view about how "freedom of religion" is currently being handled in this country. -
I dont see how that's possibly true. Americans by a large majority identify themselves as Christians, so you're arguing that they're making a hostile society for themselves? I'd argue that atheist are much more vilified than any religious group. Every politician in America has to at the least pay lip service, and show respect to religion and to the wants/desires of the religious communities. Part of the reason why Christians are perhaps more vilified than before is there increased political activity highlighted by the religious right. It makes many people, even many who identify themselves as Christian very uncomfortable.
Once religion (read Christians) tied itself to a political party and a political movement it opened the door to increased criticism. But religious people, especially Christians, trying to play the victim in a country that shows religion more respect than it should in the public square is kind of laughable imo.Last edited: Jul 10, 2008finfansince72, PMZQ, HardKoreXXX and 1 other person like this. -
Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
I am not sure how it was interpreted but I apologize if my earlier comment made it sound like the soldier was himself at fault for his treatment. That is not now or has it ever been my assumption.
I was looking for reasons behind behavior not for fault. Why someone does something provides a reason, it does not excuse their behavior. I was trying to figure out why his buddies turned on him. That they did is wrong both religiously as well as militarily. It is unacceptable. I was not contesting the behavior as wrong only trying to discover the why behind it.
Rabid anythings are vilified in America. We like to draw folks to the middle. The religious right catches flak, rightly so (pun intended) as well as the litigious atheist who wants to sue over every possible mention of God.
Americans are by and large Deists, that is they believe in the existence of some kind of God. While a large number would say they are nominally Christians, they have no affiliation or public evidence of connection. For that group, Chritianity is like a flag lapel pin, it is for display but doesn't neccesarily mean a committment behind it.dolphindebby, JCowScot, BigDogsHunt and 1 other person like this. -
Humans, by and large, are like sheep:shaun:: you get them by themselves, ask 'em some 'uncomfortable' or 'difficult' questions:sweatdrop:, and they generally look at you quizzically or with a blank stare, say "baa??" and look to join the flock again at the earliest possible moment. Don't believe me?? Go find your nearest college campus and try it out.:up: -
The fact remains.. If you aren't CHRISTIAN, or at least, if you aren't beholden to some mythical sky overlord, you will NEVER be elected to high public office in this country.. You know, the people who drive policy for this free nation of ours..
You call that persecution? I still can't buy WINE on sunday mornings because of some hocus pocus belief system that the majority of my fellow countrymen still hold on to for purely irrational reasons.. Who is the persecuted one again?MelbournePhin likes this. -
DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box
everyone has a level of commitment that they believe they meet or need to meet and each one is different. depending on your expectation, you could "fail" anyone you question about their commitment. -
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In response to Christians being criticized in this country I have to fall in line with those that have said that any avid Christian, Atheist, etc. are criticized for their strong maybe even excessive beliefs and not necessarily the religion itself.
As for the story itself its terrible because anyone is allowed to believe as they wish and I highly doubt that the atheist soldier pushed his religion on his fellow Christian soldiers thus pushing them over the edge to retaliate. I have seen instances being from a southern state in a small town where atheists have been down right treated badly for their beliefs which I find strange as Christians are supposed to reflect the gentle accepting nature of Christ. If the atheist soldier was trying to spread his message isn't that the same as when Christian missionaries go to foreign countries to spread their message (sometimes by force), so it would be hypocritical to say an atheist couldn't do that. Plus no true Christian could do to an atheist what was done to this soldier who after all was serving his country.
Addressing freedom of religion and how Christianity is handled I must disagree that its being discriminated against. There may not be any Bible after school activities but also I have never heard of a Quran study class or anything so then basically are we discriminating against the Muslim religion as well by not doing that. From my experiences Christianity has a very strong hold on this country more so than any other religion and people that say it doesn't must be wanting the US to be a theocracy. -
I am a devout Christian, who happens to be gay. I choose to be celebate, but it doesn't change who I am inside, I am and will be gay til the day I die.
Bible Clubs are at their heart religious clubs, and "alternative sexual" clubs are ones that deal as a support club for those who identify themselves as of a certain sexual orientation.
The two are totally different and have nothing to do with each other.His'nBeatYour'n, finfansince72, finswin56 and 4 others like this. -
Isn't that imposing upon your Free Will? He doesn't appear to put people at an even playing field when it comes to following His arbitrarily designed rules.
It is MUCH more difficult for you to avoid the sin of homosexual sexual relations that it is for a straight person. He stuck you behind the 8-ball from the get-go..
The same can be said of males in general for a whole host of sins.. It is not coincidence that majority of violent and sexual crimes are committed by men. Why would a God hardwire one of his creations to act a certain way, and to feel certain things, then set up a bunch of rules that COUNTER His design? It almost seems sadistic..
It's like putting a giant steak before a hungry dog, and torturing the poor thing for eternity if it caves into its genetic predisposition to eat meat.His'nBeatYour'n likes this. -
DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box
my point stands. these people, misguided or not, truly believe weather we think they are correct or not. their actions may point to a lapel pin badge of honor, but does not lessen their beliefs.Last edited: Jul 12, 2008JCowScot likes this. -
Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
We have a couple of threads of topics here which I will try to speak to. Regarding the Deist/Christian distinction I think Dolphan 1 is correct. Many of the deists would not understand themselves as such. And yes JScootCow is also correct in that being a Christian does have imperical definitions depending on with whom you affiliate.
The dividing point for me is whether or not people see their faith, whatever it may be, as only a personal possession or a committment to a faith and community. All the Abrahamic faiths call you to live for God and others. If you see it as solely personal, then you need to rethink or at least learn more about the tenets of your faith, imo.
Now regarding the nature vs. nurture argument with regards to homosexuality. I have seen studies both ways. I am not yet convinced that one "becomes" homosexual in only one way. Nurture does have something to do with it and it seems biology can not be rejected either.
Regarding the question oif "made that way so..." I think I have an annswer though not everyone will like it. After the fall, creation became embroiled in sin, that is rebeliion from God. Not all sin is the result of something someone does or doesn't do. Some sin comes from the reality of evil now residing in the world. Thus not everything, everyone is born with is God's will. Whether that includes "gay genes" I am not sure, though some would call it a "genetic birth defect".
PMZQ, I commend you for your struggle on what it means to live your life as a witness to chaste behavior. I can't begin to imagine your struggle, but I will hold you and your witness in my prayers. -
My point was that a good number of people who consider themselves 'Christian' aren't, and are unaware of the basic necessities of faith and belief associated with the religion.* Just because someone dresses in black, wears pentagrams, and watches Charmed doesn't make one a follower of Wicca. I'm sure Pagan would agree that there are certain basic tenets and beliefs of the religion that one must follow and believe in to be considered Wiccan.
*Edit: If you need/want a detailed explanation, PM me and I'll give you a basic overview. Didn't feel the previous bit here was pertinent or appropriate to the conversation. Thanks.Last edited: Jul 13, 2008 -
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DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box
i don't know your background but from what i know of Ohiofinfan's learned career, he will probably have a slightly different view than you will. similar, but not the same.
JCowScot likes this. -
My 'learned career' may not be what Ohiofin's is, but I am probably ahead of where he was at 25.:wink2:
You may have addressed my point, but I am still confused about it- sorry.:sad: Right now what I'm getting is that as long as one believes they are, than regardless of whether they actually are or not, they automatically become part of 'x' group to an outside observer. Is this correct, or am I simply daft and misunderstanding again??:lol: If this is so, then where/when does empirical truth come in to the equation?? Or, on the other hand, is there no empirical truth, and therefore one's belief/viewpoint makes it so??DOLPHAN1 likes this. -
Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
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DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box
my point was directed at the lapel pin statement that was made. i absolutely agree with everything that was stated by Ohio except that point there. yes, there are those that serve lip service to being this or that. there are those that are devout in their beliefs and then there are those that truly believe but really are not active or affiliated to any organization. they probably make up a large portion of our citizens that consider themselves Christian but do not meet the minimal expectations of the leaders and the devout.
for what ever reason these people are on the periphery, and though they are not considered Christian by others, they truly believe that they are. they do not wear their beliefs as such a lapel pin and probably would be upset if their belief was questioned.
look form their point of view for a moment and hopefully you will understand what i'm sayingLast edited: Jul 13, 2008Ohiophinphan and JCowScot like this. -
finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member
Being in the Army and not being religious I have to agree for the most part with the Soldier here filing the lawsuit. Me, I don't broadcast my beliefs or lack thereof, but if I did I think it would hurt my career. There is a "non" Christian prayer before any group function (although 99% of the time it is conducted by a Christian Chaplain who slips in words like Savior, etc) and most of the hierarchy of the Army is VERY Christian. So going to the military chapels is a great way to network and move up, not being Christian isn't neccesarily a roadblock, but it does make things a bit tougher.
I don't think I've ever been a victim of discrimination, and to the Armys credit, they do 'preach' about religious tolerance and they have policies to accomodate just about any religion, but I feel like if I were a Wiccan or another religion that has negative stereotypes placed on it that certain higher ups would look down on me. Just look at the Army's policy on gays, does anyone doubt that is the work of the Christian infrastructure of the Army policy makers?His'nBeatYour'n, MelbournePhin, JCowScot and 2 others like this. -
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Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
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DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box
i live in area that has a large number of religious persons and "communities". most of the people i am aquainted with consider themselves Christian but many would would not fit what you generally would consider a true Christian. -
1st, I don't believe homosexual sex between two gay men to be a sin. However homosexual sex between two straight men, or one gay & straight to be sinful. God made us all they way we are, and as He is perfect, then our sexuality is perfect for who we are.
Many years of heartache and prayer, frustration and anger followed me when trying to find out myself what the answer to this question was.
In the Bible, those that are condemned for homosexual behavior, if you read carefully, are those that ID as straight. It is against God's will if you choose to not act out as God made you. Thus, two gay men having a sexual relationship is not sinful.
This is my interpretation of the Bible. Others read & interpret differently. -
DOLPHAN1 Premium Member Luxury Box
Last edited: Jul 17, 2008 -
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As for the "genetic birth defect"......if anyone believes that I or any other gay person is a GBD they are not someone I would like to know anyhow. -
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