Caplan: Jake Grove could be traded

Ed Reed or nothing.

Hmmm. While the salary seems to be the basis for his theory, I am not sure that we can afford to lose the depth. Grove is locked as a center but Berger can slide over to guard if need be. Given how poor our pass protection has been in the middle, we may need Berger to do just that.

"Samphin wrote:

Hmmm. While the salary seems to be the basis for his theory, I am not sure that we can afford to lose the depth. Grove is locked as a center but Berger can slide over to guard if need be. Given how poor our pass protection has been in the middle, we may need Berger to do just that.

Problem is Grove can't stay healthy but we are pretty thin now with Garner gone for the season. I think if you can get good value for Grove.... good luck.
I think we have to keep him.

This guy posted this article after we place Garner on IR. When you place your #1 backup/swing guard on IR you are not trading a single player who gives you depth. We are two injuries away from utter disaster on the offensive line, trading Grove would leave us one injury from said disaster.

"unifiedtheory wrote:

This guy posted this article after we place Garner on IR. When you place your #1 backup/swing guard on IR you are not trading a single player who gives you depth. We are two injuries away from utter disaster on the offensive line, trading Grove would leave us one injury from said disaster.

I think Don Thomas is in serious trouble unified.

As for Grove..pfft...Sparano will rotate centers if he must, good luck Henne..:D

"unifiedtheory wrote:

This guy posted this article after we place Garner on IR. When you place your #1 backup/swing guard on IR you are not trading a single player who gives you depth. We are two injuries away from utter disaster on the offensive line, trading Grove would leave us one injury from said disaster.

cmon UT, you could refer to me by name bro... or did you mean Caplan? :lol:

IMO, if Grove isn't starting he is tradeable... IF and only IF we can get a replacement for less than we get for Grove. It's only a depth move.

We've got enough problems on the interior OL. I don't know why we should be trading anything of value there away.

What happens if you trade away Grove and Berger gets hurt? Is it gonna be Andrew Hartline? Cory Proctor? Raging Richie moving inside? It'd be nice to have as much positional consistency there as possible, and a pair of veterans sandwiching young John Jerry at all times. Big Vernon hasn't missed a game in his career, but we've got zero depth behind him (or Jake).

Really hurts to lose Garner. He was one of our Top 5 lineman to begin with. Not only did we lose our starting/swing guard, but our third tackle as well. And third TE in goal line situations.

I think our third tackle is probably on another roster right now.

Yeah. too thin on the O-line to trade Grove, unless another O-lineman comes back the other way and he can play LG.

Only way we should trade Grove is if we can get Dwight Stevenson to replace him. Oh wait...

First off, Garner was not a top 5 Olineman on this team, maybe 6th or even 7th Olineman.
Second, the pass rush and sacks on Henne have been coming off the edges. Especially off the side Carey is playing on. On that 4th and 1 Polite failed to get, Long did not even bother to go after the DE that rushed in and was at the hole, behind the line of scrimmage, before Polite got there. People better start facing reality, we have 2 new guys in the middle, it takes about two seasons playing together before they even have a good rythm and realization number two, Vernon Carey is not a super great RT, sorry to ruffle some feathers but the man has been getting run over in the pre season.

Why couldn't we have just paid the extra $8 million for Jason Brown to begin with?!

I really hope this regime has learned its lesson about signing FAs with known histories of injury.

Anyone care to wager that we don't use our 3rd or 1st on Oline next draft?

"GMJohnson wrote:

Only way we should trade Grove is if we can get Dwight Stevenson to replace him. Oh wait...

Never heard of a center named Dwight Stevenson.:tongue2:

Now if you want to talk about Dwight Stephenson...well Grove last year was the best center play we had since #57.

"mommabilly wrote:

First off, Garner was not a top 5 Olineman on this team, maybe 6th or even 7th Olineman.

Our preseason average yards per rush is under 3 yards. That's not a testament to solid interior blocking.

Regarding Garner, I'm curious to hear who you'd list as 5 or 6 better linemen than him.

I can think of Long, Grove, Carey clearly. Then MAYBE Jerry is at par. MAYBE Incognito, though he move slow as hell when he pulls (kiss screen plays goodbye, take em out of the playbook).

That's it, to me.

Garner is better than Proctor, Myrtha, and the rest of the rabble.

"ToddsPhins wrote:

Why couldn't we have just paid the extra $8 million for Jason Brown to begin with?!

I really hope this regime has learned its lesson about signing FAs with known histories of injury.

Grove and Smiley both were "quick fix" gambles that looked risky at the time for good reason...

Given the money this FO has invested in the OL, it's hard to believe we're in the shape we're in right now.

As thin as we are, they need to hold onto Grove and milk every snap they can out of him this year.

"ToddsPhins wrote:

Why couldn't we have just paid the extra $8 million for Jason Brown to begin with?!

I really hope this regime has learned its lesson about signing FAs with known histories of injury.

Agreed! I remember back in Mueller/Cams only draft when that kid - Kalil I think - went one spot ahead of us. Hes turned out to be a solid guy, whereas Satele is now gone.

Or hell, Max Unger, Andy Levitre or Phil Loadholt instead of that bum pick Pat White. :no:

"ToddsPhins wrote:

Why couldn't we have just paid the extra $8 million for Jason Brown to begin with?!

I really hope this regime has learned its lesson about signing FAs with known histories of injury.

Not sure why you'd want to have paid MORE money for Brown. Despite not playing every game, Grove was considerably better than Brown last year.

I can see complaining why we just didn't draft a center, but complaining that we didn't get Jason Brown is off base IMO.

Grove was better last season, but wasn't Jason Brown better the season before?

"mommabilly wrote:

First off, Garner was not a top 5 Olineman on this team, maybe 6th or even 7th Olineman.
Second, the pass rush and sacks on Henne have been coming off the edges. Especially off the side Carey is playing on. On that 4th and 1 Polite failed to get, Long did not even bother to go after the DE that rushed in and was at the hole, behind the line of scrimmage, before Polite got there. People better start facing reality, we have 2 new guys in the middle, it takes about two seasons playing together before they even have a good rythm and realization number two, Vernon Carey is not a super great RT, sorry to ruffle some feathers but the man has been getting run over in the pre season.

It's a fullback dive play, he's not supposed to block the defensive end. If anything, the mistake was not having the RB flare out to Bierman's side to keep him honest. He'd already been over pursuing on plays going away from him earlier in the game. In a real game, we'd likely have run a reverse to take advantage of his aggressiveness, with a decent chance of getting a big play out of it. Another option would've been to have Polite line up closer to the LOS, he was six yds deep IIRC. You don't seem to know much about basic football concepts, certainly not enough to be critiquing All-Pro linemen. But whatever, it's a forum, do what you do.

"Stitches wrote:

Not sure why you'd want to have paid MORE money for Brown.
I can see complaining why we just didn't draft a center, but complaining that we didn't get Jason Brown is off base IMO.

I'd have to respectfully disagree. Brown was still somewhat "newer" at the position last season, and he wasn't exactly swimming with talent around him either. "Why would I pay more for Brown?": probably b/c he was healthy, is a mauler, has upside, and plays at an important position on this team.

Despite not playing every game, Grove was considerably better than Brown last year.

You can't throw that out there as if missing games is a meaningless part of the equation. Was Grove "considerably better" when he was sitting on the sideline? He had a known history of injury which appears to be rearing its head again. The "injury history" should've been part of the equation to begin with. I'll take a healthy Jason Brown over a Grove on IR any day of the week.

Not to mention, you don't know what the draft will bring or if a player of quality we be around when you pick w/o having to make a serious reach while costing yourself a better player at another position in the process. You also have to consider the development of the player who might not make a serious contribution early on when you need it.

If Center is the 2nd most important position on the line, then IMO you grab one when one's available. As such, (if it's a money issue) I would've rather had Jason Brown and his salary than Vernon Carey's and grabbed Loadholt in the draft. Brown and Load's salaries combined would've been less than Carey's alone, and MUCH less than Carey and Grove's combined..... enough so that we would've had $30 million left over to spend on FA signings. And this isn't hindsight; These were my thoughts when Brown was a FA.

"jetssuck wrote:

Grove and Smiley both were "quick fix" gambles that looked risky at the time for good reason...

Given the money this FO has invested in the OL, it's hard to believe we're in the shape we're in right now.

As thin as we are, they need to hold onto Grove and milk every snap they can out of him this year.

Finally. I knew if I waited long enough you'd say something I didn't totally agree with :lol:. IMO we're not thin at all, comparatively speaking. We've got a good starting 5, one of the better groups in the league. (Insert teams with better OL here). We've also got two proven reserves in Berger & Thomas. Procter played vs Philly last year but didn't really look good to my untrained eyes. We have nothing behind either Carey or Long, but that's like saying the Saints have no one behind Drew Brees.

If you want to see a thin OL, look at our first four opponents, neither Minnesota nor Buffalo has a single OL who would start for us. Buffalo only has two guys who would even make our team. Mangold would start for us in NY, but Slauson, D'Brick, and Woody would ride the pine, and they have zero depth. I think Vollmer could give Carey a run for his money, especially in pass pro, but with Mankins out, he's probably the only Patriot who'd start for us.

Grove will not only not be traded but be retained as our starting center i.e. when regular season opens he will get the start over Berger