Charles Harris

It all depends I guess on what Miami wanted in year 1. There were clearly more needs for an impact player on the line, but they chose patience and the future with Harris. And Harris could become special in years to come, but it was decisions like this, combined with others on the offense this offseason, that didn't allow us to keep up the momentum from last season

"dirtylandry wrote:

It all depends I guess on what Miami wanted in year 1. There were clearly more needs for an impact player on the line, but they chose patience and the future with Harris. And Harris could become special in years to come, but it was decisions like this, combined with others on the offense this offseason, that didn't allow us to keep up the momentum from last season

The line had nothing to do with us losing offensive momentum. Like 90% of the teams out there through time, we lost momentum when we lost our starting QB.

The teams that don't lose momentum when they lose their starter are few and far between.

"Fin D wrote:

The line had nothing to do with us losing offensive momentum. Like 90% of the teams out there through time, we lost momentum when we lost our starting QB.

The teams that don't lose momentum when they lose their starter are few and far between.

you didn't read my post (again). I clearly said other decisions on the offense that didn't allow us to keep up the momentum. Why they didn't choose surgery or have a qb in house earlier, is beyond belief. Even if it was Cutler, it would have been better if he was here in March than in Aug

Not taking a side on the debate, but I want more then this from a 1st rd pick. Honestly, if he has this exact season next year are we okay with that? I'm not saying he is a bust, just that he needs to be more then a nameless contributor.

He was brought in as a pass rushing specialist. He needs to have stronger individual stats. At this point I would say he is not playing up to his draft position. However, he was also not a top 10 pick so there really shouldn't be expectation for him to be a world beater at this stage of his career.

I would rank him as a mild disappointment for this season. I'm hoping for a nice jump in his skill sets next year.

"KeyFin wrote:

We talked about Harris a good bit last year on the other forum and we kind of laughed at how much a few people there reacted to the Harris pick. I'm still not in love with him and I believe it's way too early to pass judgement either way, HOWEVER I will always root hard for high character players who try to make themselves and their team better. To me, Dion Jordan is a good comparison to Harris....both elite agility, elite physical characteristics with very big motors. Jordan set himself up for failure though almost from day one, while Harris has done exactly the opposite.

I personally can't say whether Harris was a great pick or a horrible one, but I do see a kid that's playing hard and trying to learn as much as possible to be even better. His field time is based on production as well so it's not like the Fins are just handing him minutes- he's competing out there and trying to make plays. And for me, that's enough 12 games into his career....I don't necessarily need to see stats at all. You know me well enough to know that I trust my eyes over everything else anyway.

This is the key. (Pun intended) I have yet to see anyone proclaim Harris as an all-pro or future HoF'er. I have, however, seen people call him a bust or no good.

You have to be able to be objective even when a player wasn't "your guy". You're able to do that. Harris wasn't my first pick. I wanted Peppers, Takk, Hooker, Howard, or Watt. I figured some of those guys would be out of our reach, but I was hoping. When Harris' name was called I was really surprised. Not because I hated the pick, but because I had not done much research on the guy. I had heard of him and saw some of his highlight reels, but nothing in-depth. (Not that my in-depth work is any good mind you, but it's something other than "because I said so")

Anyhow, once I heard his name I immediately started reading about him and watching him play. He's an extremely athletic DE. He reminded me a lot of JT, and who wouldn't be happy to have another JT? Now to top it off he seems bright, motivated, hard working, and tenacious. He's a high character guy with the tools to succeed. I like his chances on being a long time, pro bowl caliber player.

The facts are, Harris is living up to his draft position. He's not blowing up the NFL, but please point out which rookie DE is? Garrett and Thomas, the 1st and 3rd overall picks in the draft, have something like 2-3 more sacks, but they've actually started more games and both play on teams with a combined record of 2wins and 22 losses. Even that "stat" can make a difference in how each player is utilized. A "nothing to lose" mentality can sometimes benefit individual stats. (I just looked Garrett has 5 sacks and 13 tackles. Solomon has 2 sacks and 25 tackles, Harris has 1 sack and 10 tackles. But again, we're talking 1st and 3rd vs 22nd overall.) And look at Jonathan Allen, who was picked 17th overall. 1 sack and 3 tackles. Having some perspective and objectivity can go a long way in grading a player. Declaring "bust" based upon hurt feelings because "he wasn't your guy" is obtuse and counterproductive.

"Phins_to_Win wrote:

Not taking a side on the debate, but I want more then this from a 1st rd pick. Honestly, if he has this exact season next year are we okay with that? I'm not saying he is a bust, just that he needs to be more then a nameless contributor.

He was brought in as a pass rushing specialist. He needs to have stronger individual stats. At this point I would say he is not playing up to his draft position. However, he was also not a top 10 pick so there really shouldn't be expectation for him to be a world beater at this stage of his career.

I would rank him as a mild disappointment for this season. I'm hoping for a nice jump in his skill sets next year.

I think everyone wished he had come in and had 10 sacks at this point. That's not realistic. I read an article the other day talking about how it usually takes a DE one or two seasons to break out due to the complexity of the NFL. The stats aren't current from this article from Nov 17th, but look at this:

• 3rd pick, Solomon Thomas (86th edge): 8 games, 2 sacks, 22 tackles
• 14th pick, Derek Barnett (48th edge): 9 games, 2.5 sacks, 13 tackles
• 17th pick, Jonathan Allen (38th inside): 5 games, 1 sack, 3 tackles
• 22nd pick, Charles Harris (62nd edge): 9 games, 1 sack, 8 tackles
• 26th pick, Takk McKinley (36th edge): 9 games, 2 sacks, 9 tackles
• 28th pick, Taco Charlton (91st edge): 9 games, 1 sack, 5 tackles

Also from the article:

"J.J. Watt had 5.5 sacks as a rookie; then 20.5 as a sophomore. Two of Harris’ mentors are former Dolphins great and Hall of Famer Jason Taylor, and current Dolphins rush end Cameron Wake.
Taylor had 5.0 sacks as a rookie, followed by 9.0, 2.5 and then — boom! — 14.5 and Taylor’s career took off.
Wake had a career-low 5.5 sacks as a rookie and then — boom! — 14.0 and Wake’s career took off.
Harris hasn’t boomed yet, but it’s way too early to say he won’t."

http://dailydolphin.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2017/11/17/miami-dolphins-why-you-shouldnt-panic-about-charles-harris-1-sack/

Some will look at these numbers and scream, "Those guys had 5 sacks in their rookie season and Harris has one". Well, "those guys" are current and future HoF'ers (at least IMMO Wake should get in)

"hitman8 wrote:

You are right I can't say for sure whether he will be a disappointment or not in the long term. All I can say is as of right now he has been disappointing for a first round pick and has been the worst performer out of all of the top edge defenders coming out of this year's draft. I didn't like us picking him in the first round. He has too many flaws to have been our first pick. His mediocre college production came exclusively against scrub tackles and subpar competition. All he has is a quick first step off the snap and a nice spin move which does not work against good tackles. He is quick in a short area but slow in pursuit as evidenced by his 4.82 40 which is pedestrian. He is also undersized and not very strong or powerful. These are the reasons why he is not getting there for the sack.

I like that he has a good work ethic and is eager to learn, however I think his ceiling is limited by his paltry strength to speed ratio. The SS ratio is what makes guys like Jason Taylor and cam wake great. Harris is just not on the same level with them physically and I don't think he ever will be. He could become a decent producer in the league as he learns more techniques and gets stronger, but I don't think he will ever be a dominant pass rusher like wake or taylor.

40 time has little to do with pass rush skills which are more about the 10 yard split, hand usage and leverage. Derek Barnett ran a 4.88 and plays a wide 9 like Harris. Based on your premise he shouldnt be having success but he is. Even his 10 yard split is slower then Harris (1.68 to 1.65 for Harris). The 10 yard split Harris ran was on par with Myles Garrett and .02 slower then Soloman Thomas. Only Carl Lawson (1.60) and Jordan Willis (1.57) really stood out there early for me. Harris though had some intrigue as i liked him more then guys like Fish Taco Charlton but i didnt quite like him as much as Barnett or Willis who i thought would go in the same area. The production and level of competition (youre spot on regarding the production vs weaker players) worried me.

The biggest thing imo to keep in mind with Harris is that hes still relatively new to the game. He didnt start playing til late in high school and came out as a JR. Hes only been playing for 4 or 5 years. I think theres upside there but it may take a year or two. I also think hes better suited for a 34 edge rusher position like a Carl Lawson if you want immediate results. His size/first step lend itself to that. Another thing though is that he was labled as a weak run defender coming out and i think hes been cognizant of that label because he seems to work hard at it.

Long term i have a wait and see approach there. He was neither a prospect i loved or hated coming out and sometimes pass rushers take time. Typically, yes i like better measureables from my DEs but guys with a high motor and slower times can still be successful if they have good moves, technique and drive

"dirtylandry wrote:

you didn't read my post (again). I clearly said other decisions on the offense that didn't allow us to keep up the momentum. Why they didn't choose surgery or have a qb in house earlier, is beyond belief. Even if it was Cutler, it would have been better if he was here in March than in Aug

No I read it.

You attributed the lack of momentum, in part, to the line.

I replied the line had no part in it.

For future reference, any poster is allowed to object to the whole or just a part of post.

You're welcome.

"hitman8 wrote:

You are right I can't say for sure whether he will be a disappointment or not in the long term. All I can say is as of right now he has been disappointing for a first round pick and has been the worst performer out of all of the top edge defenders coming out of this year's draft. I didn't like us picking him in the first round. He has too many flaws to have been our first pick. His mediocre college production came exclusively against scrub tackles and subpar competition. All he has is a quick first step off the snap and a nice spin move which does not work against good tackles. He is quick in a short area but slow in pursuit as evidenced by his 4.82 40 which is pedestrian. He is also undersized and not very strong or powerful. These are the reasons why he is not getting there for the sack.

I like that he has a good work ethic and is eager to learn, however I think his ceiling is limited by his paltry strength to speed ratio. The SS ratio is what makes guys like Jason Taylor and cam wake great. Harris is just not on the same level with them physically and I don't think he ever will be. He could become a decent producer in the league as he learns more techniques and gets stronger, but I don't think he will ever be a dominant pass rusher like wake or taylor.

The part I emphasized is 100% false... lol

"Fin D wrote:

No I read it.

You attributed the lack of momentum, in part, to the line.

I replied the line had no part in it.

For future reference, any poster is allowed to object to the whole or just a part of post.

You're welcome.

I was very clear by addressing the line first, then other parts of the offense, that I was done with the line. Your issue is you want to interpret others' posts for what you want it to be, vs what their intent is.

you are very welcome

"danmarino wrote:

I think everyone wished he had come in and had 10 sacks at this point. That's not realistic. I read an article the other day talking about how it usually takes a DE one or two seasons to break out due to the complexity of the NFL. The stats aren't current from this article from Nov 17th, but look at this:

• 3rd pick, Solomon Thomas (86th edge): 8 games, 2 sacks, 22 tackles
• 14th pick, Derek Barnett (48th edge): 9 games, 2.5 sacks, 13 tackles
• 17th pick, Jonathan Allen (38th inside): 5 games, 1 sack, 3 tackles
• 22nd pick, Charles Harris (62nd edge): 9 games, 1 sack, 8 tackles
• 26th pick, Takk McKinley (36th edge): 9 games, 2 sacks, 9 tackles
• 28th pick, Taco Charlton (91st edge): 9 games, 1 sack, 5 tackles

Also from the article:

"J.J. Watt had 5.5 sacks as a rookie; then 20.5 as a sophomore. Two of Harris’ mentors are former Dolphins great and Hall of Famer Jason Taylor, and current Dolphins rush end Cameron Wake.
Taylor had 5.0 sacks as a rookie, followed by 9.0, 2.5 and then — boom! — 14.5 and Taylor’s career took off.
Wake had a career-low 5.5 sacks as a rookie and then — boom! — 14.0 and Wake’s career took off.
Harris hasn’t boomed yet, but it’s way too early to say he won’t."

http://dailydolphin.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2017/11/17/miami-dolphins-why-you-shouldnt-panic-about-charles-harris-1-sack/

Some will look at these numbers and scream, "Those guys had 5 sacks in their rookie season and Harris has one". Well, "those guys" are current and future HoF'ers (at least IMMO Wake should get in)

how was he at setting the edge against the run? Or does he mostly play passing downs? To me a first rd DE plays all three downs

"hitman8 wrote:

You are right I can't say for sure whether he will be a disappointment or not in the long term. All I can say is as of right now he has been disappointing for a first round pick and has been the worst performer out of all of the top edge defenders coming out of this year's draft. I didn't like us picking him in the first round. He has too many flaws to have been our first pick. His mediocre college production came exclusively against scrub tackles and subpar competition. All he has is a quick first step off the snap and a nice spin move which does not work against good tackles. He is quick in a short area but slow in pursuit as evidenced by his 4.82 40 which is pedestrian. He is also undersized and not very strong or powerful. These are the reasons why he is not getting there for the sack.

I like that he has a good work ethic and is eager to learn, however I think his ceiling is limited by his paltry strength to speed ratio. The SS ratio is what makes guys like Jason Taylor and cam wake great. Harris is just not on the same level with them physically and I don't think he ever will be. He could become a decent producer in the league as he learns more techniques and gets stronger, but I don't think he will ever be a dominant pass rusher like wake or taylor.

Yeah...no.

Charles Harris has enough strength at 22 years old to throw 34 year old Donald Penn to the ground. When he starts using his length more, he's going to be a force pic.twitter.com/Ho9KuLebWV
— Ian Wharton (@NFLFilmStudy) November 7, 2017

Now, I'm sure you'll just come back with "Ian Wharton" is wrong, but tell me why he's wrong.

"dirtylandry wrote:

how was he at setting the edge against the run? Or does he mostly play passing downs? To me a first rd DE plays all three downs

He's comparable, as a rookie, to Wake in regards to defending the run.

"danmarino wrote:

He's comparable, as a rookie, to Wake in regards to defending the run.

Wake is horrible. And now you know why we are horrible at the run.

"dirtylandry wrote:

I was very clear by addressing the line first, then other parts of the offense, that I was done with the line. Your issue is you want to interpret others' posts for what you want it to be, vs what their intent is.

you are very welcome

If you weren't saying the line played a part in losing momentum, then no, you weren't clear about it.

"Fin D wrote:

If you weren't saying the line played a part in losing momentum, then no, you weren't clear about it.

oh I was clear. We all know your issues at reading posts

"dirtylandry wrote:

Wake is horrible. And now you know why we are horrible at the run.

Wake isn't "horrible", but he is below average according to PFF.

In the eye test Wake is about average in regards to run defense. So is Harris. Harris does lock on to the QB and overrun the play too much, but he's not being fooled, he's trusting his speed too much because he's used to making those types of plays when he was much better than college tackles. Once he settles in I think he'll be fine.

"dirtylandry wrote:

oh I was clear. We all know your issues at reading posts

Well, the week was good while it lasted.

"dirtylandry wrote:

Wake is horrible. And now you know why we are horrible at the run.

That is an overstatement.

"danmarino wrote:

I think everyone wished he had come in and had 10 sacks at this point. That's not realistic. I read an article the other day talking about how it usually takes a DE one or two seasons to break out due to the complexity of the NFL. The stats aren't current from this article from Nov 17th, but look at this:

• 3rd pick, Solomon Thomas (86th edge): 8 games, 2 sacks, 22 tackles
• 14th pick, Derek Barnett (48th edge): 9 games, 2.5 sacks, 13 tackles
• 17th pick, Jonathan Allen (38th inside): 5 games, 1 sack, 3 tackles
• 22nd pick, Charles Harris (62nd edge): 9 games, 1 sack, 8 tackles
• 26th pick, Takk McKinley (36th edge): 9 games, 2 sacks, 9 tackles
• 28th pick, Taco Charlton (91st edge): 9 games, 1 sack, 5 tackles

Also from the article:

"J.J. Watt had 5.5 sacks as a rookie; then 20.5 as a sophomore. Two of Harris’ mentors are former Dolphins great and Hall of Famer Jason Taylor, and current Dolphins rush end Cameron Wake.
Taylor had 5.0 sacks as a rookie, followed by 9.0, 2.5 and then — boom! — 14.5 and Taylor’s career took off.
Wake had a career-low 5.5 sacks as a rookie and then — boom! — 14.0 and Wake’s career took off.
Harris hasn’t boomed yet, but it’s way too early to say he won’t."

http://dailydolphin.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2017/11/17/miami-dolphins-why-you-shouldnt-panic-about-charles-harris-1-sack/

Some will look at these numbers and scream, "Those guys had 5 sacks in their rookie season and Harris has one". Well, "those guys" are current and future HoF'ers (at least IMMO Wake should get in)

I agree it will take a few years to know what we have. But when you look at snap counts I think he is struggling to have an impact this year.

Defensive snaps:
Harris has 390 avg a tackle every 49 snaps

Solomon has 502 avg a tackle every 23 snaps
Derek Barnett has 346 avg a tacke every 27 snaps
Jonathan Allen has 159 avg a tackle every 53 snaps
Takkarist has 322 avg a tackle every 36 snaps
Taco has 283 average a tackle every 57 snaps

All of them have a better snap to sack ratio then Harris, however with such a low number of sacks I don't put a lot of stock into that right now.

He isn't way below the norm, but I wouldn't say statistically he has had a good rookie season.

"Phins_to_Win wrote:

I agree it will take a few years to know what we have. But when you look at snap counts I think he is struggling to have an impact this year.

Defensive snaps:
Harris has 390 avg a tackle every 49 snaps

Solomon has 502 avg a tackle every 23 snaps
Derek Barnett has 346 avg a tacke every 27 snaps
Jonathan Allen has 159 avg a tackle every 53 snaps
Takkarist has 322 avg a tackle every 36 snaps
Taco has 283 average a tackle every 57 snaps

All of them have a better snap to sack ratio then Harris, however with such a low number of sacks I don't put a lot of stock into that right now.

He isn't way below the norm, but I wouldn't say statistically he has had a good rookie season.

It is a fact he has been the worst performer out of all the top edge rushers in this year's draft. Only Taco who I also didnt like could arguably be declared worse so far. Jonathan Allen (who I also thought was overrated) and Solomon Thomas are not edge rushers so I would not include them in this comparison. Danmarino included them probably to try and make Harris look a little better. They are 3-4 de or 4-3 DT types not edge guys. You should instead include guys like TJ watt (5 sacks) and Carl Lawson (7.5 sacks) in the comparison who are true edge rushers and are outperforming harris by a mile despite being picked well after him.

PFF grades because I know some here use them as gospel.

Carl Lawson: Against the run 44, Against the pass 85

TJ Watt: Against the run 76, Against the pass 55

Charles Harris: Against the run 47, Against the pass 73

So, Harris is better against the run than Lawson and better against the pass than Watt.

"Worst performer"...... puhleese.....

Cherry picking stats to make a point is not going to lead to any great conclusions.

Last year Tannehill had a 67% comp rate. Carson Wentz is at 62%... ergo: RT>Wentz....."It is a fact"...

Oh, and Harris has more tackles than Lawson. Harris is better. It is a fact!

TJ Watt has more INT's than Von Miller. TJ is better. It is a fact!

"danmarino wrote:

PFF grades because I know some here use them as gospel.

Carl Lawson: Against the run 44, Against the pass 85

TJ Watt: Against the run 76, Against the pass 55

Charles Harris: Against the run 47, Against the pass 73

So, Harris is better against the run than Lawson and better against the pass than Watt.

"Worst performer"...... puhleese.....

Lol, you love pff when you can pick and choose their ratings when it fits your agenda. Why don't you give the overall ratings and stats?

TJ watt: overall PFF rating of 73.1, 38 tackles, 5 sacks and 1 int so far this season. He was picked 30th overall, 8 picks after we chose harris and is outproducing him by a lot.

Carl Lawson: overall PFF rating of 82.3, 12 tackles, 7.5 sacks so far this season. He was a 4th round pick and is outproducing harris by a mile.

Charles Harris: Overall pff rating of 71.2, 13 tackles, just 1 sack so far this season. He was picked 22nd overall.

So as you can see Charles Harris is in fact one of the worst performing edge rushers of this year's draft. Getting outplayed by 4th rounders. Only Taco charlton could arguably be declared worse so far.