Or get rid of the coach. Jordan has so much potential.. just stuck in a situation where coaches don't know what to do with him.

 

I'm starting to think they need to keep him at DE and groom the sh*t out of him this year. Wake is on the downside and it would be beautiful if we can replace him in a couple of years with a well groomed fired up Dion Jordan

 

his 3rd year and it will be another wasted year from him. OLB would be the best spot and decision.

 

Yeah, but does he have that ability? At Oregon, you saw him use his speed when lined up at DE to get around the tackle. We haven't seen Jordan pick up other pass rushing moves while they tried him out at DE. I mean I'd love it if he succeeded at DE, but last year was a warning sign for me that he can't do it.

 

This seems awfully unlikely. Jordan can play two positions in the NFL -- defensive end and linebacker. What are the odds that the coaching staff has such little knowledge or ability that they don't know which of those positions he can play? Isn't the stronger likelihood that the explanation resides in something within Jordan?

 

Normally yes, but I think we may be looking at an exception.

I still remember him going stride for stride covering a WR (or was it a TE) when they allowed him to. But I also remember him getting stuffed at the line of scrimmage and not being able to replicate what he did at Oregon when at DE (though he did have a few really good plays over time). No, in this case I'm thinking it's more the coaches than the player, but who knows..

 

Personally I think the issue is that his abilities fit best at the 3-4 OLB position, and because the coaches don't run that sort of defense, there's nowhere to put him. You can thank Jeff Ireland for that, if true. Part of doing a good job as a GM, of course, is in not giving the coaching staff square pegs to put in round holes.

 

I agree with that, but of the two choices in our defense, I'd think he's more suited to OLB than DE. Not sure what Philbin's comments really mean in practice, but it seems to me he still doesn't see how to utilize Jordan in the defense we run.

 

Notice the weaknesses are exactly the sorts of problems he would give coaches -- at either the DE or OLB position -- who were running at 4-3 defense, and notice the "comparison" is with a classic 3-4 OLB (Peterson).

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/dion-jordan?id=2539288

 

Need to move him to OLB, drop weight and gain explosiveness this offseason while learning the playbook for one position, not spend time farting around with his hand in the dirt wasting valuable learning opportunities. It's a make or break year for him.

Dude's not a DE, he's not a pass-rush specialist. He was a a sideline to sideline LB at Oregon who has freakish athletic ability and occasionally lined up at DE. I get sick and tired of seeing talent wasted on this team because coaches try to fit players to their system, rather than putting their players in the best position to succeed.


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Well, the experiment at DE was already tried, and it didn't seem like he got better. I didn't see anything obvious that stood out that says he can't be a good OLB. I'd like to at least see the admission (by Philbin) that DE just isn't working out and it's worth dedicating Jordan to OLB. But if Philbin is to be believed, he still thinks Jordan can make it at DE. That's what makes me think this case is an exception where it's the coach that's the problem.

 

That sounds like what the average fan of any team would say who was hoping every player it drafted in the first round would pan out, without incorporating into his thinking the normal failure rate of college prospects.

Only about 50% of first-round picks in the NFL become consistent starters in the league.

 

The better idea would be to just fire Philbin and let's get on with the future. It is rather disheartening that we are forced to suffer through another season with an inept head coach.

It seems everyone but Philbin and Coyle understand that if Jordan is to have any success at the NFL level, he is more suited to be a LB and not a DE.

It it is just so darn frustrating watching Philbin and his constant errors as the Dolphins head coach.

 

How many snaps did he take at DE after he bulked up to better defend the run?

 

Who is "everyone"? Fans on a message board? Because there is some measure of agreement about that issue among those people, they must be right, and the coaches, who work with these players in close quarters on a daily basis, must be wrong?

 

I don't know, you're the stats guy, but this link says Jordan played 34% of the snaps since returning from a 6 game suspension:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/players/playerpage/1631835/dion-jordan

EDIT: I see there is a redirect there for that link.. just google "dion jordan snaps at de". If google isn't customizing the search for me, it's the 2nd link (for cbssports).

 

Coaches have been wrong a lot. Just because fans say it doesn't mean it's wrong. You have to take things on a case-by-case basis when possible. And we've pointed out things in this case that suggest Jordan is being misused.

 

Personally I just think Jordan is a bust and why we may draft a de in this passrusher deep draft. I don't blame the coaches on this one. Just think it was a bad pick

 

bump

 

I didn't say the bolded part. I implied that fans, who are removed from the inner workings of the team, are far more likely to be wrong than the coaches, who work with these players in close quarters on a daily basis.

Fans aren't automatically wrong, but my lord, they should have some appreciation for their limitations and some humility about their appraisals of these situations.

As soon as someone finds some agreement on a message board -- from other fans, no less, who are likewise removed from the situation and want to believe Jordan has the talent to succeed but for 'X' -- he figures he's "right"! :)

 

If the coaches who watch him everyday have decided he is better suited at DE, then it is time to trade Jordan. Because he has been a below average player at that position.

He is weak against the run and he really hasn't shown much of a pass rush. So if the coaches have decided he is better suited at the DE position, instead of an OLB, he obviously was a wasted draft pick and they should trade him for a 6th or 7th round pick before he has another subpar season in 2015 and they can't get anything for him after next season.

 

Since Dion Jordan doesn't play 4-3 OLB or 4-3 DE, it would make sense to trade him.

If the coaches want to play him at either position they are probably (A) just saying DE because it sounds more dramatic and currently working on trades or (B) resigning themselves to the fact no one wants to trade for him and putting him at a position where he can at least get us a few sacks during the regular season.

 

I don't think Joe Philbin came up with the bright idea of moving up in the draft to select a 3-4 OLB prospect from Oregon for his well-qualified 4-3 DC to play with. Why would Philbin have wanted that? Seriously...where is the evidence that an offensive football coach on a mission to score more points would've done that? One would certainly think that an offensive-minded coach who was being directly instructed by his Owner to "score more points" would probably have wanted to grab an elite O-lineman (which was a huge need at the time) or an elite WR/TE to help his young, developmental QB (both of which were available at the time).

I don't know, but it seems like a move that was probably the result of a bad GM who became infatuated with a particular player who he thought might help save his job. Now, THAT kind of thing happens all the time, so I can only assume that's what happened in Miami.


DE...OLB...it's all semantics at this point. Plain and simple Dion Jordan is an edge rusher with very good speed that has the ability to learn to drop into coverage and the physical size to potentially do it against bigger TEs and WRs.

The Dolphins DEs rarely drop into coverage and their OLBs rarely rush the passer...so Dion Jordan is a horrible fit for Miami at the moment. There's no evidence to suggest that Kevin Coyle pounded the table for Dion Jordan and thus I have no reason to believe Joe Philbin wanted him either. I do have evidence that Jeff Ireland is bad at drafting though...so there's that. ;)

Dion Jordan is a better pass rusher at this point than a coverage guy but the Dolphins run a 4-3 and currently employ two quality pass rushers in Olivier Vernon and Cameron Wake so Jordan has little to do but provide depth.

Dion Jordan should have been drafted by a team that (A) had a 3-4 scheme where he could play OLB and (B) needed a pass rusher.


What's done is done. I don't see the need to bringing this stuff up all the time to try and use it in some weird case against Philbin. At this point, I think Philbin is going to enter camp by giving Dion Jordan primarily pass rush duties and I credit him for that. I think it's a move aimed at going back to square one which allowed Dion Jordon to flash a bit during his rookie year. That's a smart move that can at least recoup some value from the (bad) draft selection.

 

I wouldnt presume infallibility on the coaches part. That they are a member of a coaching staff means that they either have some marginal level of capability to do their jobs or they're the beneficiary of the nepotism rife in football - it does not mean that they're incapable of making mistakes.

 

Again, I'm not assuming infalliability on the coaches' part. I'm assuming a hell of a lot of fallibility on the fans' part (myself included). :)

 

The odds are rather high, considering that the labor market for NFL coaches is notoriously based on cronyism, nepotism, and is demonstrably exclusionary based on race and gender.

 

And he wouldn't be the first one:

http://www.pro-football-reference.c...pos_is_db=Y&draft_pos_is_k=Y&draft_pos_is_p=Y

 

You think those factors make the decision of where to play one player -- in a situation in which there are only two options -- likely to be wrought with incompetence?

And that explanation is more likely to be true than something that centers on the player and/or his fit in the system?

 

You asked what the odds are that the coaching staff is essentially incompetent. Based on the factors I listed, the odds are fairly high. I would not say that Joe Philbin and the majority of his staff are more skilled than most that post on this forum.

There is nothing about Dion Jordan's skillset that is mystery, or only available to coaches. There are hundreds of hours of tape of him playing. We aren't talking about a situation where someone is not getting playing time, and you could logically think there are character issues. This is about how his skillset is utilized.

 

There is no tape, however, of him playing OLB in a 4-3 in the NFL, yet there may be information regarding his ability in that area that the coaches are privy to, and we are not. We can't very well act like we know the move to OLB would be a good one, and that the coaches are wrong, under those circumstances.

 

I agree. The only person who EVER thought Philbin would make a good head coach is Ross. I know this because in all the years Philbin had been an assistant coach, no other owner, university, high school, or as far as I know, peewee league organization offered him a head coaching position.

I may not know as much about football as Philbin and the other coaches with the Dolphins. But after watching the game for over five decades and playing it through high school, I think I have a good understanding of who is a good head coach and who isn't.

Philbin might be a great guy, but as a head football coach in the NFL, he is mediocre at best. With a good head coach, I feel this team could have won several more games the past three seasons and would have been in the playoffs one or two times in those three years.

Just because Ross thought Philbin would be a good head coach doesn't make it true.

 

And if the "evidence" of Philbin's "incompetence" is based on ideas that can be as easily questioned as this:

...I'd say we don't really know a damned thing about how good a coach Joe Philbin is.

In other words, the understanding of Philbin's (in)competence on this message board is about as sturdy as a house of cards.

 

It is based on his compensation on a free market.

 

I'm sure you realize that the compensation for Don Shula, the winningest coach of all time, in 1996, on that same free market, was zero. Did he suddenly lose all of his competence?

Likewise, the compensation for Bill Belichick when he coached the Browns was likely in the bottom quartile (if not decile) of the league.

The point of course is that, while these are exceptions to the rule, they nonetheless illustrate that there are variables other than competence at play.

 

Different eras.

And unlikely Philbin is that rare overlooked coaching gem who had produced mediocre results three years running but is truly amazing.

Possible, sure.

Likely? No.



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Coaches are still being fired in such a way that it would suggest they "suddenly" lost their competence.

And it's about as unlikely that he's exceptionally terrible. Those coaches are just as few and far between as the gems.

 

23-25... That is Philbin's coaching record after three years as the head coach in the NFL. That clearly shows that Philbin is nothing but a mediocre head coach.

Football is all about wins and losses. That is why so many head coaches are fired each year. So if you can't look at his record and determine he isn't very good at his job. That is just your inability to see the obvious. I think the majority of Dolphin fans have no problem in recognizing his incompetence as the Dolphins head coach.

 

Why doesn't it clearly show that he's had mediocre or worse talent?