Cool Draft Simulator...

Kyle Williams was 6'1 295 pre draft. The great John Randle was 6'1 287.

Wouldn't be surprised to see Princeton's Caraun Reid turn some heads during the Senior Bowl and shoot up the draft boards. What a specimen.

"TooGoodForDez wrote:

We saw him yesterday. He looks 300 or close to it playing next to Ezell, who is taller. We'll know at the combine. I am just making a mental note for now that this dude is in the Greg Robinson, Kelvin Benjamin, beast-mode stratosphere, he is a freak, can dominate at any spot on the line. We need those.

Tonight I will be watching Eathyn Manumaleuna DT BYU. I know he can penetrate, I want to see if he gets doubled often and whetehr he can shed blockers. Also, Cody Hoffman is a joy to watch as a receiver and I want to see Deon Bucannon.

I think you have the right of it. You've got to look at the guy on the field, see what he does on the field. Don't pay attention to results, see how the guy plays and make your judgments from there. I'm not going to pretend that being 285 lbs is going to make NFL evaluators feel comfortable about a defensive tackle. But when you watch his feats of pure strength on the field you realize he's easily as strong as guys much, much bigger than him. He uses his body better, gets better leverage, sheds blocks, sees the backfield, has speed that none of those bigger guys have, etc.

As I said before you can't just have mindless allegiance to meaningless numbers on a page. You HAVE to know what those numbers mean and why those conventions are in place if you want to have any hope of understanding when and why they are important as well as in what cases they will not be as important.

In this case what's the point of wanting a defensive tackle to be taller if he's got a big wing span and is easily as strong at 285 lbs as other guys that are 305 or 315 lbs? At that point you've got allegiance to a number on a page that bears no value on the football field.

"phinsational wrote:

Kyle Williams was 6'1 295 pre draft. The great John Randle was 6'1 287.

Wouldn't be surprised to see Princeton's Caraun Reid turn some heads during the Senior Bowl and shoot up the draft boards. What a specimen.

Ah I forgot about John Randle!

Dominant players, Randle and Kyle Williams...and not really significantly bigger than Aaron Donald.

"ckparrothead wrote:

Ah I forgot about John Randle!

Dominant players, Randle and Kyle Williams...and not really significantly bigger than Aaron Donald.

I'd care more about his potential to develop into a poor man's Warren Sapp than his height or weight. If Sapp could enter the NFL at 6'1.5, 285 and become a Hall of Famer, I'd have to think Donald could have a productive career as a similar style interior pressure player.

Watched Hageman today. Looks as advertised, top of 2nd round, maybe late 1st.

And Sam Mills was a great MLB at 5-9. If John Randle was at 6-1 "not really significantly bigger" than Donald at "6-0", maybe we should start looking at some MLB prospects at 5-8, or to be realistic about it as per the Randle/Donald comparison, 5-7. What the heck, at that size they'll be closer to the ground to chase scat backs, right?

This isn't about what is possible, of course it's possible that a great college player like Donald can make it in the NFL at DT. It's about lack of size being a downside complication, and a risk. If you asked yourself the size question about Russell Wilson you considered the case of Drew Brees. If you ask yourself about Donald you consider the cases of Atkins and Patterson. That's not rocket science, that's simple logic for anyone who follows the sport.

The issue is whether or not a lack of size could put Donald at a competitive disadvantage in the NFL, and whether or not that will effect his draft status. Of course it could, and that's a negative factor that most scouts and GMs do not like. As stellar a college player as Donald has been, award winner supreme, I'll be shocked if he's drafted before Auburn's Greg Robinson- want to guess why?

There is a very real chance that size will be a problem for Donald in the NFL. Whether he can overcome it or not, that remains to be seen, but the bottom line is that it's a red flag to NFL scouts. Lets face it, he makes Sam Brenner look big. As one scout put it online, this issue is going to be teams running right at a smaller player and how he handles it. He certainly looks closer to 5-11 than 6-0 to me, and I wonder how much more good weight he can put on that small frame, he already looks like an overstuffed sausage. Excellent college player, probably a second round pick or late first round at best. And that's for one reason and one reason only, his lack of size.

Jim, you are making a pointless argument because Doland is already ranked by scouts as the 4th best DT in the draft behind Louis Nix (6-2), Hageman (6-6) and Will Sutton (6-0). .

"TooGoodForDez wrote:

Jim, you are making a pointless argument because Doland is already ranked by scouts as the 4th best DT in the draft behind Louis Nix (6-2), Hageman (6-6) and Will Sutton (6-0). .

That's not the point at all, I'm surprised at your comment. The point is to what extent Donald's size, or lack thereof, will limit his draft status and performance in the NFL. Since he won every major award that a college DT could win and was a unanimous All- American, why is he rated only the 4th best DT in the draft? Did Nix, Hageman or Sutton outplay him this year? What national awards did they win as compared to Donald? If you want to list them, that would be great. Why do most rate him as a second round pick? Maybe that's what you should be asking yourself, and then my argument might seem a little less pointless to you.

Donald looks closer to 5-11 than 6-0 to me, and to me that's a concern- if he comes in at 5-10 and change that will be interesting. If you think that I'm quibbling about an inch, when 6-0 is pretty darned short to begin with, that's fine. My concern is that he will be prone to being engulfed in the NFL at that size, and that possibility is a risk and a red flag. Great college player, but I see a second round pick in him. If you disagree, that's fine. And if you truly think that Donald is on the same level of a Greg Robinson as an NFL draft prospect, let's just disagree and move on.

ps small draft prospects do go high, case in point Ernie Sims went top 10 several years back. You never know where a great, undersized college player like Donald will go. I like Donald quite a bit- It's hard to watch him play and not like him, he's that good. But nonetheless, because of his size, I see second round there. Just my opinion.

As far as draft status, the size is already taken into account. He is projected as a mid 2nd rounder. That size risk you are talking about is already built into that ranking.

Here is an excerpt from CBS press release by Rob Rang. "CBSSPORTS.COM ALL-AMERICANS: FIRST-TEAM DEFENSE AS NFL DRAFT PROSPECTS: DT - Aaron Donald, Sr., Pittsburgh: Generating an eye-popping 26 tackles for loss (including eight sacks) in 2013 make Donald our Defensive Player of the Year, along with winning the Nagurski and Outland Trophies as the nation's dominant defensive lineman. But NFL scouts may not be nearly as excited about his potential as the media, considering Pitt's star defensive tackle's undersized frame. At only 6-foot, 285-pounds, Donald relies more on his burst and quick hands to penetrate rather than power to hold up at the point of attack, making his best fit as a three-technique in the 4-3 alignment. - Rob Rang, NFLDraftScout.com"



As far as performance in the NFL, all we can offer at this time is an opinion. Yours is as good as mine. My reasoning is that DTs are easiest to evaluate because they are scheme independent. It's man on man. Donald performed this year better than any other DT in the country.
If you ask me why he played so well, I think it is because he has power in the legs to generate explosion and sustain strength, and he has a wing span for the swim move. I think all of those translate well. More than that, I think those are rare freakish attributes, to have that power in the lower body with that wings span.

"TooGoodForDez wrote:

As far as draft status, the size is already taken into account. He is projected as a mid 2nd rounder. That size risk you are talking about is already built into that ranking.

Here is an excerpt from CBS press release by Rob Rang. "CBSSPORTS.COM ALL-AMERICANS: FIRST-TEAM DEFENSE AS NFL DRAFT PROSPECTS: DT - Aaron Donald, Sr., Pittsburgh: Generating an eye-popping 26 tackles for loss (including eight sacks) in 2013 make Donald our Defensive Player of the Year, along with winning the Nagurski and Outland Trophies as the nation's dominant defensive lineman. But NFL scouts may not be nearly as excited about his potential as the media, considering Pitt's star defensive tackle's undersized frame. At only 6-foot, 285-pounds, Donald relies more on his burst and quick hands to penetrate rather than power to hold up at the point of attack, making his best fit as a three-technique in the 4-3 alignment. - Rob Rang, NFLDraftScout.com"



As far as performance in the NFL, all we can offer at this time is an opinion. Yours is as good as mine. My reasoning is that DTs are easiest to evaluate because they are scheme independent. It's man on man. Donald performed this year better than any other DT in the country.
If you ask me why he played so well, I think it is because he has power in the legs to generate explosion and sustain strength, and he has a wing span for the swim move. I think all of those translate well. More than that, I think those are rare freakish attributes, to have that power in the lower body with that wings span.

As to your first paragraph- okay, most of the draft guys agree with me. Thanks, but I already know that, not sure what your point is.

If Donald wasn't built like Cleveland Jr. he's be a top ten pick, it's that simple. He's be an elite prospect. Fantastic college player, maybe he'll be a great pro, who knows? He looks maxed out size wise to me, and as I said height wise my guess is that he's closer to 5-11 than 6-0. I could see him playing some DE as well as DT and the more that I look at him and how puffed up he is the more I think that he could drop 20 lbs and play MLB. The reason that I mentioned that in the first place, other than the size issue, is the speed and quicks that he has at his puffed up size and the way that he knifes into backfields- great quicks, instincts and change of direction. He has some speed.

I wish him well and I hope that he goes as high as he can in the draft, but he's not an elite prospect. He's an elite college football player, and history is littered with elite college players who weren't considered elite draft prospects, for better or worse. What he is, imo, is a damn good college football player, a very good pro prospect and a likely second round pick. Nothing wrong with that.

OK, now I get your point:

Donald is not an elite prospect because he is 6-0 and he looks to you 5-11, but you agree that he is a mid 2nd round pick. I other words, you do not knock him lower than he is slotted now but you do not give him any more than that, he is slotted jsut right in your opinion.

"TooGoodForDez wrote:

OK, now I get your point:

Donald is not an elite prospect because he is 6-0 and he looks to you 5-11, but you agree that he is a mid 2nd round pick. I other words, you do not knock him lower than he is slotted now but you do not give him any more than that, he is slotted jsut right in your opinion.

No offense, but maybe you should read over a few posts because I think that you got off course. I've been saying the same thing all along- great college player, size challenged, looks like a 2nd rd pick to me, he has some outstanding skills and quicks that make me think that even at his short stature he could pull an Elvis Dumervill and play some DE, and I wondered originally that given his athletic skills and instincts whether or not he could drop 15 lbs (maybe even a little more because he looks so puffed up, maxed out size-wise to me) and play ILB. He has some speed, certainly knows how to knife into gaps with instinct, and he's quick. That's all I'm saying. Never has it been a revelation that Donald is by and large considered a 2nd round prospect- iirc you and others are of the belief that due to his outstanding play in college and all the college awards that he won this year he's a legit 1st round prospect.

I just respectfully disagree with that, and as to you in particular I certainly don't agree that he's an NFL prospect in the same elite group as Auburn LT Greg Robinson. Not even close. Robinson is a physical beast with outstanding size and athleticism, Donald is not. Donald just lacks size, plain and simple.

I agree with that assessment of the disagreement.

"TooGoodForDez wrote:

I agree with that assessment of the disagreement.

No problems, I enjoy reading your posts.

"TooGoodForDez wrote:

Jim, you are making a pointless argument because Doland is already ranked by scouts as the 4th best DT in the draft behind Louis Nix (6-2), Hageman (6-6) and Will Sutton (6-0). .

Ahead of Sutton on many boards, I hear...though consistently behind Nix and Hageman. I believe ESPN's latest rankings have Donald as the 31st best player in the country.

I see Jernigan as #7 overall on ESPN, and then Nix and Hageman in top 32.

"TooGoodForDez wrote:

I see Jernigan as #7 overall on ESPN, and then Nix and Hageman in top 32.

I've seen Jernigan ahead of him on some media boards as well. Not sure any scouts see it that way.

"TooGoodForDez wrote:

I see Jernigan as #7 overall on ESPN, and then Nix and Hageman in top 32.

Where was Nix listed at?

I'd dance the Joe Philbin "jig" if Miami came out of this draft with both Nix and Donald.

ESPn has Nix at #17 overall : http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft (but they also have Easley as DE at #16 which is a surprise because every list I've seen so far had Easley in the 3rd round.) http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/draft/rankings

Here's another way to go, a recent one I did:

022: CB Darqueze Dennard, Michigan State
053: ILB Shayne Skov, Stanford
086: RB Marion Grice, Arizona State
117: DT Dominique Easley, Florida
150: WR Cody Hoffman, BYU
181: OL Billy Turner, North Dakota State
214: FB Jay Prosch, Auburn

One more...

022: DT Ra'Shede Hageman, Minnesota
053: OT JaWuan James, Tennessee
086: WR Devante Parker, Louisville
117: DE Scott Crichton, Oregon State
150: DE Aaron Lynch, South Florida
181: OL Billy Turner, North Dakota State
214: RB Glasco Martin, Baylor

Your picks

22

olb khalil mack
buffalo

53

dt aaron donald
pittsburgh

86

og xavier su’a-filo
ucla

117

te c.j. Fiedorowicz
iowa

150

ot wesley johnson
vanderbilt

181

ot billy turner
north dakota state

214

rb isaiah crowell
alabama state

22
ot taylor lewan
michigan
53
te austin seferian-jenkins
washington
86
rb carlos hyde
ohio state
117
ot seantrel henderson
miami
150
de demarcus lawrence
boise state
181
dt deandre coleman
california
214
s christian bryant
ohio state

Your picks

22

te jace amaro
texas tech

53

dt ra’shede hageman
minnesota

86

og xavier su’a-filo
ucla

117

ot seantrel henderson
miami

150

qb braxton miller
ohio state

181

ot billy turner
north dakota state

214

rb isaiah crowell
alabama state

I could live with this one:

Martin seems to be a popular choice in round 2. Given Miami's needs at the OL - I am not a huge fan of Kouandjio but at #19 I think I'd take him and I'd probably plug him at RT (like SD did with Fluker). I'd take this and go home and be happy. Thomas will compete against Thigpen and I just could not pass up his overall athleticism.

19 OT CYRUS KOUANDJIO
ALABAMA

50 OG ZACK MARTIN
NOTRE DAME

81 RB DE’ANTHONY THOMAS
OREGON

112 ILB MAX BULLOUGH
MICHIGAN STATE

143 OT JAMES HURST (Hurst broke his leg, but in round 5, I'm taking a chance on him - esp. since I already have two OLs drafted)
UNC

174 TE MARCEL JENSEN
FRESNO STATE

211 WR RYAN GRANT
TULANE