He doesn't run below a 4.50 he's useless.

 

I think you mean "He doesn't run below a 4.5. He's a great complementary piece and would really be free to do serious damage underneath with either a TE or 3/4th WR taking up coverage.

 

Fact: You cannot get a closer look at Black Ninja. It is physically impossible to do; Black Ninja enters the scene, catches the ball and disappears. You get a glance at the blur, that is all.

 

Or drops it....


Actually I'm pleased with Bess, he is a top 3-4 slot WR his hands are good but not great.


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[video=youtube;tUQTPdiW7NE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUQTPdiW7NE[/video]

 

Better production than our so called #1.
More TD's
More YAC
Less drops.

 

But he had that so-called #1 garnering double coverage, and the attention of the defense to free him up. He had less drops, but Marshall had more catches/targets. Love ya man, but the bashing of Marshall is tired to me.

 

Fixed.

I've NEVER said he was useless. I'll REPEAT IT AGAIN. He's an elite receiver when you have to get 8 yards or less. FRIGGIN ELITE.

However, outside of that, he is LIMITED on the way that we can use him, which means he limits what we can do on offense. Can you please remind me the ways that an offense attacks and beats a cover 2 and let me know how Bess (or ANY group of slow possession guys) fits into this equation. Orrrrr should we just keep running a $40 million dollar decoy down the field so Bess can dance around underneath while never breaking a big play? Seriously, who's more important here----- Marshall?..... or Bess?

Having Marshall on the field drawing coverage is a reason to get a better playmaker in the slot on 1st & 2nd down so that he CAN eat up more grass on these short passes. A long of 29 yards doesn't really cut it in an offense that's starved for chunk yards.

Maybe you just enjoy the stress of moving the chains 10 yards at a time while other teams accomplish that unicornly rare feat called chunk yardage. <sarcasm> What benefit is Bess on 1st or 2nd down when the ground game and/or longer pass to Brandon, Hartline, or TE down the middle takes precedence? Have you seen his 1st & 2nd down production? It's mediocre.

Have you read the opening post to see the massive bulk of his passes lie in the 0-9 yard range? If he's good for a 9.2 yard average on these 54 receptions, and he averages 4.1 YAC, that means (on average) he's catching a pass 5 yards down field and running for 4. PLEASE TELL ME HOW THAT OPENS UP THE FIELD OR ALLOWS YOU TO ATTACK A DEFENSE ON 1ST OR 2ND DOWN. It DOESNT....... which is why he's not targeted as often on 1st & 2nd down (unless it's 2nd and non-long). We're dumping off 5 yard passes to Bess out of the slot while teams like the Packers are running 40 yard verticals from it with Greg Jennings. Miami--closed offense... GB--open. Miami--closed... GB--open.

Honestly, have you ever counted how many steps it takes him to run 5 yards? Me either. it's pretty darn hard. lol.

 

I don't see the issue with having a wide receiver that can get you eight yards? If we want to get a guy who can vertically stretch the field, why does it have to be at the expense of Davone Bess?

 

Why would it?

I totally dont see Miami trying to upgrade the slot position. If they want to bring in some competition for Hartline then so be it, but we could be alot worse at the #2 WR position than Brian.

 

What's wrong with keeping Bess and using him in the role that he utterly thrives in ---- short situations or 3rd down.... while having someone else in the slot on 1st, 2nd & long, and 3rd & long who allows us to: A. better attack a defense. B. Force a defense to guard the entire field and keep guys from cheating toward the box to help out the ground game. C. pick up chunk yards. D. Create more space for Marshall on short passes to him.??????

What we have now does nothing to help out the best player on our offense. He needs help. Someone who can stretch the field next to him along with a TE who can attack the safeties would give Brandon so much more opportunity to make plays than he was afforded last year. Right now, his only chance to make a big play is by catching it on intermediate to deep routes, but on these routes defenses can afford to double him up b/c we don't have a TE to threaten the middle and Bess isn't a threat to attack either of the safeties.

 

Or we just get a TE that can flex out and cause problems? A seam busting TE is all we need in terms of our pass catchers.

I could be wrong but I believe ToddsPhins suggested it.

 

ToddsPhins has proven time and time again that Henne is such a good quarterback that he needs an all-star cast around him to succeed. Plus receivers that only Al Davis would love.

 

IMO we'd be better off with another dependable (faster) receiver who would allow us to better succeed on 1st and 2nd down while opening up the ground game.

I'd like to see Brandon being able to play in the slot w/o having an entire defense in his vicinity b/c Bess & Fasano can't stretch the field to give Brandon room.

I'd like to see Hartline in the slot occasionally, too, while someone other then Bess is on the outside who can run a vertical along with Hartline & Marshall to open the underneath for a speedy COP back mismatched on a LB (like Detroit did all year with Best, and Philly does with McCoy). I'd like to see the previous scenario (3 guys running verticals) so that we can run more plays with a TE running the seam (one whom we can COUNT ON getting behind a linebacker). There are so many things this offense can't do because our personnel limits us. It doesn't shock me that defenses could read our plays and know what was coming.

 

Give me a break. That's such a BS cop out facade of an argument!!!! Watch some football will you. Wanting ONE F******* receiver who actually runs under a 4.5 and can get vertical is nothing like wanting receivers only Davis would love.

Tell me how you attack a cover 2. Tell me how you create space around the field so guys like Marshall and a COP back can make plays underneath. I'm all ears. Tell me how an offense can run every route and play effectively when most of your guys CANT run all the routes. I suppose that's the QB's fault too.

You're right though--- it's ridiculous of me to want stuff like half the NFL is capable of. It's stupid to want such luxuries as more than 1 receiver who can get vertical to attack the safeties. It's insanity to desire what teams like the Chargers do on a regular basis by running their big receivers down field so that Gates can beat LBs on the seam. It's outlandish to want such rarities as things called "match-up problems" that other teams around the league use on a weekly basis. Chunk yardage? Eh, it's just a myth.


Henne has not a f****** thing to do with it. Great QBs need these things too. The only difference is that other teams give these tools to their QBs, especially if they're great so that they can be in a position to succeed. Name me 1 great QB in history who did it all on his own.

 

You should work for the Raiders scouting department.

 

then we still have only 3 WRs on this roster. That's not getting you anywhere. That also allows us little versatility. How's that help if you want to line Marshall in the slot? Is Bess threatening anyone deep as a decoy to open up a designed play to Brandon?

If Brandon is in the slot and you want to get him the ball on a short pass with room to run, are Bess, Hartline, and Fasano the guys you want running verticals? How effective would that be on a scale of 1-10? How about if Hartline is in the slot and Bess & Marshall are on the outside and you want to get Hartline down the seam? Can you count on Bess and Marshall to effectively attack the safeties and create a soft spot for Hartline?

How about if you want to run 3-4 WR verticals to attack a Cover 2?

I agree with the TE, but we still need a WR regardless b/c we only have 3. We can do what other teams do and platoon guys or rotate them in for specific situations and to keep things less predictable.

 

Why? Do the Raiders now want to switch from speed everywhere to being balanced? If they do, then you're probably right. :wink2:

You should work for the US Department of Homeland Boringness.


BTW, thanks for telling us how you attack a cover 2. Good argument on your part. A+ all the way!!!!

 

It is easy, get a quarterback who can actually throw the ball downfield with some accuracy and has some pocket presense with some escapability to buy some time. Cover 2 attacked.

You mention the Chargers who has a great quarterback in Phillip Rivers, who can throw soft passes past 20 yards with great accuracy. He also isn't the type of quarterback to call max protect because he can actually buy time and allow his wide receivers to get open. With henne you have 3 to 4 seconds to get open, however after that, chances are he will do a feeble attempt at running the ball or he will throw the ball away.

yes that is what he has been taught to do, however he has to be taught that because the guy isn't good at buying time with his legs. I have never seen such an athletic quarterback play so unathletically on the field.

You shoud work for the US Department of Horrible Jokes.

 

And who is this QB throwing the ball to down field (1 person doesn't cut it). We don't have a scrambling QB. We have to make due with what we have. It's easier to add a WR to help out than it is to magically pull this "QB" out of thin air...... although EVERY QB still needs the personnel to attack Cover 2, unless you want to run the QB all day and get him killed.

The Chargers can attack cover 2 because of their personnel. Period. Stop putting the cart before the horse; the attacking starts with the guys running the routes.

 

Where is it carved in stone that Bess HAS to be on the field when/if Marshall lines up in the slot?

Hell why couldn't you line Bess up on the other side with Brandon in the slot?

I like Nolan Carroll but dumping Ted Ginn created a lack of respect for our WR speed and created a hole in the return game.

Bad move.


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My whole issue with picking up brandon marshall was covered quite adequately with Davone Bess and even Greg C. Davone bess is a terror under 10 yards. Brandon marshall is a terror under 15 yards. With nobody that will draw any defenders out you have a whole bunch of DBs in a small area.

Ted Ginn, the writing was on the wall. But damn I think getting rid of him was because our coaching staff was lazy or unimaginative. Dude torched Darrelle Revis and had a down year but he flashed some stuff in his down year and did catch 800 yards from Pennington. You think we would have tried at least. But no.

People argued it was the right decision. Was it?

 

thank you jdang. Exactly.

lets say Marshall is in the slot. What's the absolute best way to get him the ball underneath to where he can pick up yac? What routes do you run with X, Z, and Y?...... And can we effectively run those routes with Bess, Fasano, and Hartline?

 

Fin-O, if we're reduced to always playing Bess opposite Marshall when we want to create opportunities for Brandon in the slot, then that makes us somewhat predictable while also limiting our ability to connect on a big play with Bess's wr spot because he's less effective on the outside against CBs than he is in the slot vs LBs. It also limits the routes Brandon can run because we'd only be attacking one of the safeties because corners can run downfield with Bess without needing safety help over the top. That leaves one safefy over Hartline and one to crack down on Marshall, no? Fasano has a difficult time getting behind the LB, so the play might go for a short gain where Brandon is tackled asap yet again. If you want it to work at max capacity, then we need to be able to attack both safeties imo.

 

Either Bess or Hartline, someone has to make room.

 

we could get by with Hart, Greg Little, and Virgil Green attacking the safeties with Marshall in the slot working underneath or down the seam. And they can do it from multiple positions. Virgil could line up anywhere, and Little could line up at all 3 spots and be dangerous from them which allows Marshall to line up anywhere with greater effectiveness.

 

Who in the world "opened things up" for Marshall in Denver when he had 1100 yds and 10 TDs???? We should sign that guy!

 

if it's Hartline, then that still leaves us with only one guy to attack the safeties if we're trying to get Brandon the ball underneath with room to run. Openinging up the offense and being more vertical does not belong in the same paragraph as Bess....... Or Fasano for that matter. And what good is Marshall if you're using him as a decoy decoy to attack a safety if you're dumping the ball off to a guy who has no ability to pick up chunk yardage? It makes more sense to use someone else as the decoy and letting Brandon catch those passes instead IMO.

 

Stringer, you don't have to have elite players to open things up. There's a big difference between Eddie Royal & Tony Scheffler's ability to attack the safeties than Bess & Fasano. Night and day difference. Those guys can require safety help over the top because they have the speed to get behind CBs and LBs. Bess and Fasano don't. It's that simple.

 

How about Mickey Shuler at TE? Maybe he can move his crappy talent to the practice squad or to Burger King. Then we can get a guy who can actually stretch the field there.

 

so you only want the ability to attack a defense when our #2 TE is in? That doesn't make us more predictable. Lol. How about our ability to attack a defense when our #1 TE is in the game? What do we do then? That means we're not supposed to pose any threat on 1st down when we should be capable of either running or passing with a every play in our book at our disposal.

if this #2 is only seeing like 25% of the snaps, then do we just not attack a defense on the other 75%?

 

Its ridiculous to suggest that someone who had 1 reception over 20 yards was threatening the safeties. Eddie Royal doesn't attack safeties any more than Davone Bess does. Tony Scheffler had 5 receptions over 20 yards in 2009.

In 2010, Brian Hartline had 10, almost twice as many as Royal and Scheffler combined for in 2009. So there really is nothing to suggest the safeties were threatened any more for Marshall in 2009 than they were in 2010.

 

No.... We would run a two TE set...

 

Thats not nearly spread out enough :001_rolleyes:

 

Hartline? That's one freakin guy. $ow do you attack safeties with one guy?

it doesn't matter how many passes Royal or Scheffler caught. If you're trying to get Marshall the ball on these plays then they shouldn't be catching any now should they?..... Which I might add would be indicative of them effectively doing their job on that play.

dude, Royal runs a sub 4.4 and it's not just track speed. If you think for one second that 4.6 Bess is as effective attacking a safety as Royal is, you're crazy. Ditto goes for scheffler.

 

Eddie Royal was TERRIBLE that year