11 to 19 yards ill take those all day long. Henne is on the edge of being a very good qb.

 

Sadly he's also on the edge of being a career backup/journeyman.

 

Kinda feels like we're

 

KC Joyner: THE ULTIMATE STAT MONKEY!!

He makes some valid points. But ignores 2 very important facts -

Chad Henne's TD / INT ratio - .79
Mark Sanchez TD / INT ratio - 1.30

Brace yourself: Here comes the Chad Henne was unlucky argument and Sanchez was super lucky! In the NFL you make your own luck.

Also, while Sanchez's overall stats didn't light the world on fire he played well during crucial moments of big games. That's something Henne didn't do this last season.

Stats tell a story. But sometimes you also have to watch the games with your eyeballs to really compare players. I'm not here to say Chad Henne can't someday be a better QB than Mark Sanchez. I hope and pray that he can. But as of right now Sanchez is the guy who has accomplished more and played better. To say they're at the same level at this point in time is a bit of a reach, IMHO, and a full fledged code red stat monkey assault.

 

Watching the games is more proof than the stats. Sean Smith alone dropped maybe 4 total INT's from Sanchez. Langford too. Go to DJ's thread, Sanchez had a possible 5 or 6 TO's on his own that we didn't hit on.

 

I was going to post it, but I didn't want to the ensuing debate. Like the dead horse picture, I've talked about it ad nauseum, so I'm sure many feel the same way--either with or not with Henne.

I'll just say this. I think it shows how much of a better team the New York Jets have, which goes to a point a thread was started about and what Chris (ckparrothead) suggested. And that is, this team isn't as close as many suspect. If we're going to win in spite of our QB, then we've got quite a bit of work to do.

 

I do believe in luck. And Sanchez was very lucky last year. Anyone who watched the Jets play, and like KingMo mentioned, Miami can attest to that. The fact that nearly every time Henne drove the Dolphins inside the 20-25 yd line only to see Henning call 3 straight running/WC plays is also a factor you didn't consider when you mentioned TD/INT ratio. At least not in this post.

Sanchez has had the opportunity to make his mistakes as a young QB and then turn around and make a good play all with his coaches and teammates back. Henne plays well only to be yanked out fro the WC or to watch his OC call three straight running plays when in scoring position. Granted, a lot of Saqnchez's "good" plays were due to one of his WR's getting separation from the defender, which sometimes allowed Sanchez to throw to them with no defender within 10yds. Henne has often never had that luxury and instead had to either place the ball perfectly, or have it fall incomplete or intercepted. Add to this that the Dolphins, unlike the Jests, had no running game last year and you'd see that other teams were able to tee off on Henne without worrying about the running game where teams that played the Jests had to stay true to both the pass and run.

Overall Sanchez and Henne are close in their numbers and Henne is ahead in most even though Sanchez has had it easier. Athletics and potential? Henne beats Sanchez in everything except running around in and out of the pocket. If Henne were playing for the Jests the last couple of years my bet is we'd see a QB with way better stats than Sanchez. Face it, the Jests, overall, have been the better team over the last few years. The Dolphins seem to have their number, thank God, but back-to-back AFCCG's mean a lot. (Even if one was handed to them...had to get that jab in there)

 

Which is better, brown poop or green poop?

 

[video=youtube;0jqYRebZfjk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jqYRebZfjk[/video]

Look at all that Sanchez magic. Slant to the house. Look at how Sanchez broke those tackles. If you look at 0:10 you can see Sanchez make the two defenders NOT make a tackle.

 

Hey KingMotion, for future reference, I'm pretty sure posting full articles of paid material is against TOS. You can post some portions, cited, that prove a point, but the whole thing is a no go....I THINK. Could have changed, maybe?!?!

 

This isn't the first time I've done it. It's Muck's call now.

 

LOL @ Sanchez "no better" than Henne. As if that's some bold or controversial statement. Like saying New York is no hotter than Miami in the Summer.

 

Brown for sure. The green looks funny.

 

Green is more interesting...

 

The turnover per attempt stat is very interesting..Sanchez is almost twice as a irresponsible with the football.

If you remember our game against them at their place..Sanchez had 7 potential easily dropped int's 2 of those in the pick 6 variety, and 3 fumbles that were not recovered by us...It was pure luck that they weren't completely boo'd off their own field..

 

I'm not getting knee deep in this bull**** debate again, but all of you know damn well if the roles were reversed and Sanchez was our QB and Henne was a Jet, and they just had the exact seasons they posted, none of us and I mean NONE would claim Henne was just as good as Sanchez. If you try and say otherwise you're kidding yourselves. It's ok. You're allowed to be homers on a Dolphins message board. I support Henne too, and hope he actually DOES outperform Sanchez in '11 - '12. If there's a season.

BTW, I'm almost positive posting full paid articles or even non-paid is against TOS and could bring trouble for the owners of this site, so might want to keep that in mind.

 

I think the point here is more about how much fan perception is based on the final result and how fans tend to simplistically blame everything on the QB. His metrics indicate that Sanchez and Henne performed similarly (Henne actually a bit better). The differences in the outcomes, whether it's interception totals or how far the team got were the result of other factors. Therefore it's logical to conclude that if those other factors changed, the results will also be changed significantly. His results support what many here have been saying; not that Henne is great, but rather that a team can get pretty far with a QB performing even a bit worse than how Henne performed last season. That isn't ideal of course, everybody wants the best QB they can get. But until such a QB becomes available (or is worth trading up for) we don't need to panic and reach. The doom and gloom purveyors basing their predictions primarily on the level of QB play are simply playing chicken little.

 

wish i could read the whole article. from the small pieces quoted it seems to place henne right about where i think of him. a guy with a good arm who is a developing quarterback in the league, really pretty boring point of view i know. he needs to play better, all around better, decisions, throws, leadership, reads, the whole gamut, this season. if he continues to improve thats great, the best option for the team overall. he could also stay where he is, or regress, in which case we need a quarterback, the lock out is robbing us of the feedback/information needed for us to have any credible debate on where he stands now. really sucks cause the kid needs camp and OTA's bad, i hope the player organized initiatives are helpful but i think the established routine was far and away a better option for chad henne's success this season, we'll see,,,, or maybe they'll never get on the field this season

 

You are absolutely getting knee deep if you're going to give your opinion and then act like you don't have to support it with anything.

 

I don't really need to see a detailed break down to know that Henne is better than Sanchez. (Although showing statistics does help support it). He obviously plays with a less talented WR corp and our running game was terrible this past year. The jets have two game changing WRs on their team and were pretty solid running the ball. I DO believe in luck. And, while Henne made a few bad decisions last year, he was also the victim of terrible luck. He got credited for an INT that didn't even happen at the end of the Pitt game. Bess slipped on an INT. And Marshall let one go through his hands that got picked. These are three off the bat that I can remember. Could have been more. On the flip side, as has already been mentioned - in the one game against us, Sanchez got lucky as hell. Could have literally been directly responsible for 5-8 turnovers in this game alone. And there have been break downs posted in the past about Sanchez getting lucky in many other games.

All that being said, Henne does have to step up his game. It's easy to see he can play at this level. He can make all the throws and he is tough. He needs to work on his consistency and his leadership. I think he will be a better leader when play calling doesn't hand cuff him (or he isn't taken out of game for the wildcat when he is in a great rhythm.) And if the coaches show confidence in HIM, he will in turn gain the confidence need to truly be a leader. We'll see this year. I have high hopes for the guy. He can get it done.

 

That's not true at all. I tend to be very objective in my QB analysis. Last year when many were lauding Henne, I was saying that Henne should be a bit better than Sanchez this year (pretty much exactly what Joyner's metrics found did happen), but that Sanchez had more upside. If you have self-evaluated and determined that you aren't objective then I applaud your introspectiveness and honesty, but don't imbue everybody else with that characteristic.

And you are correct in terms of the TOS. Here's the appropriate section from the site rules:

Linkage
If you are posting content that originated elsewhere and/or belongs to someone else, you must include a link to said content. Furthermore, copyright guidelines require that you may only post a few lines from said article before providing a link.

 

I'm not kidding myself. I'm really objective when it comes to football. If you've noticed I typically use stats (the MOST objective way) to further my opinions. I don't believe in "clutch", or "it factor", or Santa Claus for that matter. Even when I say I believe in "luck" I'm not saying I believe in some magical force that is unmeasurable. I'm talking about situations were the ball happens to roll the right way for someone more often than not. (Sanchez)

All of the measurable (objective) data shows that Henne has played a little better than Sanchez with a worse team. There is just no arguing that. Now, someone may try to use wins or playoffs etc etc...but wins and playoffs show TEAM accomplishments. No QB in the history of football has won a game without 10 other people around him on offense, 11 people on defense, or a special teams squad. Not one...So, if you want to argue that the Jests overall are better..well, that's a valid argument.

 

The part I bolded is confusing. Can I post an entire article as long as I post the URL after the first few sentences of that article instead of at the end?

 

Still don't believe you would sit here saying Henne played better, roles reversed. Never will. And if the lot of you don't believe there's value to a QB who plays well in the 4th quarter with the game on the line, then like I said, not going to continue nonsensical discussions.

 

Umm, I posted the whole thing.

 

I want you guys to read it so I'm letting the staff delete it and give me a warning.

 

I said that the Jests are the better team. How much more objective can I be? You think I can't/won't admit that one certain Dolphin is worse than another player on another team? Again, I'm extremely objective and using OBJECTIVE stats proves that. If Sanchez played for the Dolphins I'd bet he'd have worse stats than Henne. My reasoning? Well, Sanchez playes on a better team and Henne already puts up better stats overall.

There is value in a QB that plays well from the start of the game. The game is on the line starting at 14:59 of the 1st quarter. Thinking that somehow a TD pass in the 4th quarter is worth more points than a TD pass in the 1st quarter is "nonsensical".

 

TD/INT ratio. You're forgetting it again. Like everyone else. But, oh yeah. That's right. Henne was just unlucky.

I can't argue with that. But when I watched those 2 QBs last season I saw two QBs who both played mediocre to poor the first 3 quarters of the game. But I saw Sanchez play great in quite a few closing drives of the 4th quarter this year. I saw Henne make crucial mistakes in similar situations. Those plays helped Sanchez win his team a few games, and those mistakes helped Henne's team lose a few games. Sure it's not all on the QB, but their play was integral. Not to mention Sanchez's performance in the playoffs. Maybe if Henne can ever help get this team to the playoffs we'll be able to compare those stats as well.

If you want to sit here and pretend there's simply no such thing as athletes in any major sport who play great or better in clutch situations, or you don't want to "believe in that" all while "believing in luck", go right ahead.

All you guys are having a great time pretending to be objective though so I'm just going to see my way out of this thread and stop pissing on your parades.

 

Basically there are two separate requirements to the rule, you can only post a few lines and you must provide a link.

 

It's just worded funny I guess. I was unaware of this Copyright Law too though. Thanks

 

got it, i just clicked the original posters link and got denied by insider, thanks kingmotion.

 

I not only remember the TD/INT ration, but I refutted it. Remember?

I'll reiterate; Henne drives the Dolphins into scoring position, he's in great rythym...Henning pulls him out and runs the WC for no gain. Then he calls a running play for no gain...now it's 3rd and long...What does Henning do? Calls another running play. Dolphins kick the FG. Now, this isn't made up. Anyone who watched the Dolphins last year saw this over and over and over. So I ask you, how can Henne throw TD's when the OC rarely calls a passing play in scoring position?

The 4th quarter stats are overrated. A better way to judge a QB's play, if you want to look only at their poise, is to look at how they play when behind in points.

When the Dolphins are losing Henne has an 89 QBR, with a 68% comp percentage, averages 7.2 ypp, 10 TD's and 7 INT's and 15 sacks.

Sanchez has an 80 QBR, with a 57% comp percentage, averages 7.3 ypp, 11 TD's and 9 INT's with 16 sacks.

Again we see that Henne is better.


Clutch, sorry to break it to you, is one of the greatest myths ever created by the media. Empirical studies have shown time and time again that ALL pro athletes have an innate ability to play well under pressure. That's one of the reasons they are pro athletes. However, and again empirical studies have shown, those athletes, on average, play no better in the post season than they do in the regular season.

I used to believe in "clutch" too. Even when I read all of these studies that proved it didn't exist I wouldn't believe it. Well, I then took random players, and then took some of the best known "clutch" players, in both football and baseball, and looked at their regular and post season stats. After I did that...there was nothing else I could do but give in.

If you don't believe me, give me an NFL or MLB player's name that you believe is "clutch" and I'll prove you wrong.

 

Data as in Star-Trek? :no:
just hope we have a season this year...

 

Can you really blame them when he does stuff like this:

[video=youtube;MKtxsARXwiM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKtxsARXwiM[/video]

 

2009? The game where he played amazing? Or the 2010 game where he also played amazing? Henne's redzone stats were 10 TD to 2 INT. That's money.

 

Yeah, no other NFL QB has ever missed their read...ever.

Seriously, show me one QB that has never missed a read, made a bad throw, etc etc.

Have you ever even looked at Henne's stats when he's inside scoring position? Last season when the Dolphins were inside their opponents 20 yard line he completed 60% of his passes and had 10 TD's and 2 INT's with an 89 QBR. Yeah..piss poor.

Sanchez completed 50% of his passes with 12 TD's, 2 INT's and an 86 QBR. And remember, Sanchez never got yanked for the WC down there.

And just for fun:

When the Dolphins are backed up inside their own 20 yd line :

Henne: 60% comp, 0 TD's, 0 INT, 81 QBR

Sanchez: 54% comp, 0 TD's, 0 INT, 75 QBR

 

LMAO. One play? He read Leonhard going outside on Brown and he went to the slant. He trusted Marshall to get across Cromartie's face and BM didn't do it. Now you can say he shouldn't have thrown it to Marshall, that he should've come off of his read and looked for Hartline. But again, as a QB you don't know that the WR is going to be out of position until it's too late. Had Leonhard doubled Marshall, Henne probably comes off of him and looks over towards Hartline & Fasano, and he probably throws a TD. But those are the the little breaks here and there that happen in every game.