Over the past couple of years I have become very sceptical of religious faith and in particular those that subscribe to a higher being or place, be it poly or mono theistic faiths. This I feel is mainly due to the fact that for the past three years I have been studying such disciplines as Chritian Theology, World Religions, Philosophy and Early Christian History. What I have concluded from this is that the more I studied and developed a reasoned opinion on certain faiths, the more I began to doubt their doctrine. So basically, because my reason of a certain faith (ie Christianity) developed, the more I began to doubt its validity.
So what I would like to know is whether this has happend to anyone else or how do reasoned people still have belief in their faith, even if they do not agree with certain aspects of it?
I dont post on this board that often, but I do know that its a good place when asking questions of this nature.
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Is this more along the lines of disbelief in doctrines or in Deity emeraldfin?
For myself, when I looked into the foundational period of Christianity it became apparent that something caused Faith to be established in early Christians, but I myself did not find the various doctrines to be compelling at all.
As for reason imvho the more reason is applied, the more likely Deity exists as reason can never explain the wildly variable outcomes of any given situation.emeraldfin likes this. -
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Well I would say that depends emeraldfin, an expansive view or a limited one, the Epistles were not written because the early Christian Church was all of one mind, quite the opposite, it was wildly divergent but all save for the Gnostics believed in the Resurrection.
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Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
Early Church history and the development of Canon/Creeds was my area of concentration in seminary.
The doctrine of the Trinity, the two natures of Christ, substitutionary atonement, the establishment of the NT Canon are all things that my study has caused me to accept even more comfortably than before. I am not sure what doctrines you have trouble with so if you are willing to share a bit more, I would try to answer you from a Christian point of view.dolphindebby likes this. -
Which brings me onto something I have great problem with and that is scriptural contradictions. If two seperate verses are giving you conflicting accounts or advice then which do you go with?
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Yes I have question it in the same manner. I'll reply more later I'm going to school here in a few.
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The earlier differences were come to honestly, if one thinks about it, christians were suppressed no matter their differences in doctrine.
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Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
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I just wanted to see if anyone else has or had gone through the same experience I did. I used to be a good Christian. I would go to Church every week and not question my reasoning for doing so or the dogma of my faith. However when I began to think about it and actually study what my faith stood for, I then became doubtful that the particular faith I had dedicated my life to was the right one and then questioned the possibility of an after life.
I honestly did not wish to get into a theological debate with anyone nor question their beliefs for the sake of an argument. I just wondered if anyone has gone through a similar crisis of faith or rejection of ones previous faith. Apologies for any mis-understanding caused. -
yup i have reservations about most pieces of faith that i've studied. which includes many known and some unknown. all i have questions about and none i've picked information up blindly. among those i've studied are christianity, buddhism, taoism, hermeticism, martinism, shinto..
buddhism and taoism the most, followed by hermeticism and martinism and shintoism are last. i've also looked into a bit of gnosticism, but not much.
i don't follow any one faith and it's bad of me because i lack direction spiritually. i have more questions than i have answers and a lot of it doesn't make sense in the fact that the big picture still isn't answered; which is what i always thought religion was supposed to help with as i think that's what most things are supposed to help with.
i'm the kind of person that needs to know why something is the way it is. if i don't i generally either don't have or won't have an interest in it. this quest for knowledge has lead me all over the place and in many different directions. i feel i'm the better for it, but the worse for an overall spiritual direction. i have a feeling one day things will settle down and i will either believe full heartily or i won't.emeraldfin, gafinfan and sking29 like this. -
Once again I know your not saying you feel you need a religion to feel guided but I'm just sharing my advice. I'm sure you have beliefs of what are right and wrong and what feels right to you...so just go with that. :up:emeraldfin and gafinfan like this. -
Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
Best wishes.emeraldfin likes this. -
emeraldfin likes this.
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Pretty much everything you have said there I can relate to also. Just one question I have is how does the fact that you haven't found a spiritual home (so to speak) affect your belief in a higher being? -
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Actually, that is quite funny to consider, a service wherein everyone doubted "
"Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today, don't know why we are gathered here today, it just seemed like the thing to do, anyway, contribute to the building fund"
:lol::lol: -
As far as letting it affect my belief in a higher power I consider the two separate issues. I said I have more questions than I have answers, but my research into various religions has provided me with some answers on an ethical level, just not on a spiritual level. That question is a whole 'nother ballgame. It has taken longer and I'm at the point now where I'm having trouble with the thought for various reasons. I used to be a complete believer of force, or of energy, or whatever you want to call it. Taoists call it "chi" so I'll use that but don't let the signpost of the particular faith get in the way of what I'm saying. It doesn't mean I don't believe or that I do, just that I'm completely unsure and I think that's because I was so frustrated with it I haven't thought enough about it since. Just because I don't agree with a certain scriptures point of view on the subject of a higher power doesn't phase me because it's not my own belief as I obviously don't subscribe to a particular system. Finding that has been incredibly difficult, but I want to be sure.
The search continues. I'm sure even after I find out what I truly do believe I'll have questions or rejections about the opposite. And that's really okay.emeraldfin likes this. -
to me, belief in the judeo-christian god actually makes sense.
im currently not a member of any church however. dogma and me dont always mix. authority and me dont always mix
i guess i sort of cherry pick what i like and leave out what i dont.
part of faith is accepting that youre not going to understand everything nor are you necessarily supposed to.
im not sure if i really can be of help, but its important to know that reason and faith are not incompatible. some of the greatest thinkers, writers, etc were firm believersTheMageGandalf and emeraldfin like this. -
One of the best advice I have ever received from a book is, "The story is not about the person who wrote the book, it is about the person who is reading the book."
I know you didn't ask me the question about finding a spiritual home. I am going to answer it anyway. It affects me by not having someone attempt to push their understanding on me or try to convince me of their rightness. Generally I have noticed, even in myself, that it is very important to have a feeling of being right. Hell it shows up perfectly in movies. What does it matter if someone doesn't like the same movie as I do. However my desire to prove someone wrong shows up right when someone says, "300 sucks."
To me faith is the same way. Just to the billionth power. There seems to be a huge desire for people of faith to be proven right. Not everyone of course. There are some on this board who are very open minded and are willing to discuss other ideas.
Still I do believe that the truth of the matter is if there is an absolute truth, no one can give you a direct faith in it, just like no one can give you a love of the movie 300. They might be able to give you a thought that can shift your paradigm so you realize that 300 is one of the greatest movies of all time. Still the paradigm shift is something that you accomplished.
As Captain Planet said, "The power is yours."emeraldfin likes this. -
When I began studying the various religions of the world what struck my was that there were many similarities in the basics. Just about every major story in the bible can be traced back to an earlier religion with different names (sometimes just slightly different). I felt that it was possible to look at the same events and come up with drastically different interpretations. My reasoning led me to conclude that there were probably basic truths and that the differences were most likely the result of man interpreting things differently or just adding their own rules for personal or even political reasons.
I think this is what your original post was asking. If not I apologize for digressing.emeraldfin likes this. -
You made the point that you do believe in the Judaeo-Christian God |Maynard, but you do not subscibe to the dogma of either faith. If that is the case, then do you still see yourself as a Christian, Jew or indeed something else? -
One thing that struck me was that you refer to how we all have our own reason. Just out of curiosity and in your own opinion Dupree, if you take two averge people from different socio-economic backgrounds, who are of the same faith (say Catholic), who have never studied their faith indepthly and get them to read the Bible for the 1st time, will they arrive at the same conclusions to each other or even to that of their own faith? -
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There are some things that make a religion what it is, but other than that everything else is left up to the individual. -
Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
All of this is why Christians are urged to study scripturw in groups. Each perspective adds to the others and some can be found to be textually or historically wrong. It keeps everyone from going off into flights of self delusion.
dolphindebby likes this. -
I don't mean this as a criticism of religion, but it is a fairly common group dynamic. I've seen studies where actors are directed to mislead with obviously wrong and simple answers and the vast majority of the time the rest of the group will follow. One study I remember had people looking at the length of lines and were supposed to state which line was longer. These were obvious differences, not close calls. The actors were directed to pick the wrong answer and 70 - 80 percent of the time they were agreed with by the the test subject.
And when it comes to religious people vs. non religious people the most common difference is that religious people tend to place a higher value in belonging to a group while non-religious people tend to place more value on individuality. This has been the conclusion of several studies as well. They found no differences in education, income, etc., but the difference in the value placed on belonging vs. individuality was pronounced.
It makes me wonder if that earlier group dynamic would be even more pronounced. Either way it's incredibly high, though.Fin D likes this. -
Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
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Religion in America is changing...
A new survey finds many Americans say there is more than one way to find heaven...that includes many evangelical Christians.
Pastor David Brown of the Pilgrim Congregational United Church of Christ says, "We believe God loves everyone and includes everyone."
That's not a statement historically associated with the Protestant Church...but, according to a new study it is becoming the norm.
The Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life consulted more than 35,000 Americans for its U.S. Religious Landscape Survey.
Pastor Brown says, "God's family is a lot bigger than, unfortunately, some people seem to feel."
The survey finds among evangelical Protestant churches more than half the members believe many religions can lead to eternal life.
They're not alone...the vast majority of Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu and more than half of Muslim Americans believe the same way.
Here in the Tennessee Valley not everyone agrees.
Associate Pastor Dwight Martinof Calvary Baptist Church says, "We love them, and we want them to understand the truth. But, the Bible says there's only one way."
Pastor Martin says it's not a question of interpretation.
He says the Christian Savior is the only path to eternal life, and while he knows the idea is not popular, heaven is open to all who would believe, "That's what God's word says and I believe that with all my heart. So...people who don't believe that, their argument is not with me, it's with God's word."
Brown says it's not about telling people how to find heaven, it's helping them get there, "Americans are changing. I think we're far more conscious of diversity, far more aware there are many different religious paths to God. Each of us has to find and choose and commit to our own religious path."
Another interesting finding in the study...one in five American Atheists and more than half of Agnostics believe there is a God or Universal Spirit.
http://www.wdef.com/news/americans_say_more_than_one_way_to_heaven/06/2008
I don't see that as people coming to the same conclusion. That seems like more and more people are looking at the various religions and seeing some things they like in many of them. -
Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
Of course from your vantage point you will not. And likely from my vantage point I don't see all you do.
Of course people will pick and choose. Why take into account anything that makes you uncomfortable or challenges your own desires? Design a god who loves you and never asks anything of you. Thou shalt not? Why limit what I want?! I know self centeredness is strong. Why pick up something that might make me feel guilty or shameful?
The Abrahamic faiths call that original sin and I see lots of it.dolphindebby and dirtywhiteboy like this. -
Then when I thought about it, I realized that I don't believe God would design a system where goodness or being worthy of heaven is limited to one religion. It struck me as patently unfair that a kid who grew up in a different religion and never even heard of catholicism or christianity (or any other religion) but was by all other measures a good person is denied heaven. I don't think God would do that. That more than anything is what makes me believe that it can't be limited to just one religion. In my experience that is why many people believe there has to be more than one way to heaven. -
Ohiophinphan Chaplain Staff Member Luxury Box
The detail we would need to go into to continue this is probably beyond what our forums are designed to do. I will resist the urge to go further.
I wish you well -
I do believe that no matter what you study it is best to also study it in groups. Especially if it is spiritual. Join some people who are on a the same spiritual path. Unless you are athiest. I still do not understand why athiests meet. How can you get a group and discuss nothing?
Other perspectives really do add to other people. I know for myself on my own path my level of understanding and understanding my naivity grew thousands fold when I got into groups and discussions about my path.
So my advice to anyone on any path (other than Athiesm) is to join groups and discuss. You will learn from sharing your thoughts as you will hearing other thoughts.
Also remember that you are your own guru or at least that you are the one who is responsible for your actions. Never give your power up to anyone who says they are better than you or more advance than you. Someone might know more about you on a subject, however that does not mean they are more advanced or better than you. -
This topic has gone silent, and I did not take part in the earlier discussion, however for anyone interested there is a good amount of information on William Lane Craig's website www.reasonablefaith.org (the Q/A section is very helpful). I don't believe you can separate faith from reason, though some have tried to make "faith" in faith the greatest of faiths... whatever that means. Christianity is an evidence based religion- not a blind leap as some say. It is objectively true. You can try, like some, and pick and choose what you like. But, ya know, when you go to a buffet what do you get on your plate? The stuff you like, and what you don't like you don't put on your plate- Some people choose their religion this way. Jesus said that those who seek the truth find him, truth is by nature exclusive.
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Some context about me before I say more. Unlike most atheists I do not hate religion. I've been a christian and am currently married to one. When I was a christian, I was immersed in it. My parents taught Sunday school even. My "conversion" from faith to atheist, was not reactionary or made without careful thought, discussion and research. It also wasn't made with a foregone conclusion.
My objections to what you posted are most specifically about 2 statements you made.
fact: 1. something that actually exists; reality; truth:
2. something known to exist or to have happened
belief: 1. something believed; an opinion or conviction;
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof
Once one understands that these words are more or less opposites, then one can actually begin to find their "truth"/faith. -
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This is told from the point of view of someone who is not blind. How can you know that no one can claim to have truth, unless you yourself are able to have it?
There is an appearance of humility in saying that truth is relative, no one can comprehend truth... but really it is an arrogant claim. How could you know that no religion or person could see the whole elephant (truth) unless you yourself have the superior, comprehensive knowledge of truth which you just claimed is not absolute- that no one can claim to have?Dol-Fan Dupree likes this.
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